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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/6/2004 12:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
By the very definition of "Elsewhere," no causal actions from my own "Now"—a fortiori from my own future—can reach the observer unless they move with a velocity greater than that of light, which is excluded by relativity.
Exactly! That's what ive been saying along  Faster then light is the place manner or method by which revelaton of events goes back in time showing God the whole picture from A to Z, or from Alpha to Omega. But you claim God didn'thave the Omega knowledge from the beginning, but I say he did....by the way faster then light is not, and I repeat is not excluded by relativity...objects of the physical pile on mass as they reach the speed of light keeping them sublight....this is true...however regardless of what a secularist might say man is more then just physical and God most certainly is. Jesus said that which is of flesh [or physcial] is flesh, but that which is of spirit is spirit.
Spirit is the substance and nature of a different universal order....Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God...wonder why? Wonder why 1 Cor 15 starts speaking of physical substances....kind of a strange thing to bring up no? I would suggest flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God because substance of the physical are held under the speed oflight. Mmmm....I wonder if we might now know where the Kingdom Of God is? Im not saying this dogmatically that people have to believe this, but I would suggest the Kingdom of God begins on the other side of the speed of light....Call that my opinion if you like
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/6/2004 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
Well I would agree that God has experienced ordered events the same as us....that is what ive said all along....that the future doesn't exist until it unfolds....however once it does unfold above the speed of light provides for one retrograde time [backwards]
Hi Bobber,
The scenario you postulate is simply not possible, by either the laws of science or of logic, and even for God. There is nothing to go back to. The past only exists in God's memory. If it were possible to go back and change it, it would actually be the future, for it would be a NEW development in history for God to rewrite what has already happened. The laws of physics (which God himself set up in the first place) do not allow for changing the past, not even for God. There's simply nothing there (or then) to go back to. All that exists is now, the perpetually unfolding future.
Tachyons are only theoretical, cannot be demonstrated to actually exist (except in the mind of a scientist with an idle imagination), and as Dr. William Lane Craig's article ably demonstrates, they are inherently self-contradictory, for if they existed, then something could exist before it existed--an uncaused effect is a contradication in terms.
Don't you think if God COULD, he WOULD change the past and start over?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/6/2004 1:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Sahid: What's the probability that Jesus' prediction about Peter wouldn't come true? "This very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny me three times."
... So what are the odds that this passionate man who, leaving his old life behind, gave three years of his life to Jesus would hide by himself at the most dramatic moment of Jesus' life. I think Peter was interested and foolhardy enough to go into the courtyard to see what would happen. ...
To know these things without future-vision, Jesus would have to understand:
A. Peter's heart
B. Group psychology.
I think it is reasonable to say that Jesus understood these things. ... I'm sure there's more we don't know about, but the story included in the gospels doesn't require more than A and B.
It wasn't just Peter and a group, though. All the decisions aren't listed because that is not the focus of the story. But I think we can come up with lots of decisions that would be required rather easily. Peter was following at a distance. So I think we may reasonably say that every step he took towards the high priest's courtyard was with some difficulty and inner struggle (there's the 100 items for Sister's list!), and he could have turned back at any point. The rest of the disciples did! Even Thomas, who had said earlier, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." And all the other disciples echoed Peter, when he said he would not deny the Lord. Yet all but John and Peter ran. Jesus said Peter would deny him. That indicates that Peter was not in heroic mode, if Jesus was just estimating! Thus that makes this prediction less probable, in that sense, if Peter was in shrinking-back mode, then he had to be just brave enough to be in a place where he would then be challenged, and then fearful enough to deny knowing Jesus. A very delicate operation here, if this is just guessing.
quote:
John 2:24-25 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
Sisters: Jesus wasn't "guessing".
Not about Peter's character! But he was guessing about Peter's actions, according to the OV.
quote:
Sisters: [Babe Ruth] wasn't wrong. Was it:
1. Had the power to predetermine all history?
2. Had exhaustive knowledge of a future that had already happened?
3. Had the ability to carry out his prediction?
Sahid: Which is harder? To call a homerun off a major league pitcher or to understand that Peter is passionate but afraid?
Well, again, if you narrow it down to one event you can solve the problem. But it wasn't just one event that had to happen with Peter. So let's see Babe Ruth hit 100 home runs in a row! No, let's not see it. That's almost certainly how it's going to turn out...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
John 2:24-25 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
Sisters: Jesus wasn't "guessing".
Not about Peter's character! But he was guessing about Peter's actions, according to the OV.
Your actions precede out of your character.
Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders."
If He reads Peter's thoughts, that's as good as knowing a future that doesn't exist yet.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 2:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Sisters: [Babe Ruth] wasn't wrong. Was it:
1. Had the power to predetermine all history?
2. Had exhaustive knowledge of a future that had already happened?
3. Had the ability to carry out his prediction?
Sahid: Which is harder? To call a homerun off a major league pitcher or to understand that Peter is passionate but afraid?
Well, again, if you narrow it down to one event you can solve the problem. But it wasn't just one event that had to happen with Peter.
Peter, after running away from Jesus, the same day, denied Him three times. This only happened that one day. Not 100 different days.
Jesus knew Peter's heart, knew Peter's mind, knew the crowd's mind...
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/6/2004 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Your actions precede out of your character.
Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders."
If He reads Peter's thoughts, that's as good as knowing a future that doesn't exist yet. [Sister of Cain]
Yes but you have absolutely no guarentee do you that someone might act in a certain given way at a certain given time. A thief may walk down the street and in his heart well he's corrupt...that's doesn't mean you can give a prophecy that he is going to steal three peoples wallets before the rooster crows in the morning....I would say you need to see the future to know that....Jesus Is The Alpha/Omega, The Beginning And The End.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/6/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Allow me to speak for a moment on the law of probablity....The most clearest purest form of probablity would be mathematics itself. Consider a lottery. Many years ago I used to be into the lottery thing although like l say I stopped buying tickets like I say years ago [for various reasons] Anyway we have up in Canada one called 649. You have to pick 6 numbers out of 49, and to win you have to get all six numbers correct. Well I thought I had a system which I might not get the big prize but smaller ones [if you get 5 numbers right this or if you get 4 numbers right you get that. Just for fun I made a chart over a whole year what numbers were used the most or least from the ball machine from which they come. Logic would dictate that the least number used would or should be the new ones coming up from week to week correct?
It would have to be for logic must dictate that say if you tossed a coin, you know 50% of the time it would by necessity come up heads or tails. So I worked my system with the 49 numbers keeping a chart of over a year of different draws...which would take place twice a week. Did the least used numbers come up like they should have? No. It never would seem to cooperate with you....the least numbers wouldn't come up like you thought they should....my point is this....if were to believe Jesus knew the future lets say Peter denying Christ and knowing this by the law of probablity I would say no, i don't care how good your law of probablity is...it just doesn't work that way...not as long mind you as Peter had actual freedom of will....things can go many different ways...therefore the only way Jesus knew about Peter and a great many other things was that the future was an open book, that is he did know the end from the beginning...there was a way for him to know the future and I think it was the way ive shared in these posts. Please give it some thought | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
Allow me to speak for a moment on the law of probablity....
Do you know the thoughts of all those playing the lottery? Of all those putting on the lottery?
My exhaustive foreknowlege tells me I'm going to have Cheerios for breakfast tomorrow.
My white sock prediction has been true for the last 15 years or more.
Fifteen times 365 + 3 or 4 leap years is 5478 days of accurate predictions that I will wear socks the next day. Proof of exhaustive knowlege of a future that hasn't happened yet.
Isaiah 48:3
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
"Observations of the cosmic microwave background radiation show that the Universe emerged from the Big Bang in a very smooth and uniform state. This rules out the time-symmetric solutions. The implication is that even if the present expansion of the Universe does reverse, time will not run backwards and broken cups will not start re- assembling themselves." | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/6/2004 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote] Do you know the thoughts of all those playing the lottery? Of all those putting on the lottery? [/quotee]
You don't need to know the thoughts of anyone who maybe playing. What other people do have nothing to do with it. The pin ball lottery I described is the perfect and purest form of where the law of probablity should take place. The only logical prediction should be that the least used numbers should be on the way to resurface before the most used do. It doesn't work that way though. The law of probablity can never be used to make a prophecy. Never. And yet that's what the OV theology would put forth?
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 7/6/2004 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
FROM SISTERSOFCAIN: My exhaustive foreknowlege tells me I'm going to have Cheerios for breakfast tomorrow.
My white sock prediction has been true for the last 15 years or more.
Fifteen times 365 + 3 or 4 leap years is 5478 days of accurate predictions that I will wear socks the next day. Proof of exhaustive knowlege of a future that hasn't happened yet.
Isaiah 48:3
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
Again, to process the tension between free will and God's foreknowledge without this thought of "God's eternal purpose" - that there is actually purpose to all of this, leaves us debating important theological issues of the day, such as: whether or not God knows for sure if I'm going to have vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream on September 29th, 2004, 8:55 pm (Mountain Time)... as if He really needed to know that.
And what is this eternal purpose of His? To create a people who would be eternal companions and partners with Jesus Christ, both here and now, and in the life to come - the life for which we're in training. This "purpose-grid" can so help us better (not perfectly) understnand the paradox of free will and God's foreknowledge.
And without God's eternal purpose front and center, we're left with trying to figure out mysteries - such as "how has God always existed - never had a beginning, and that there never will be an end to all of this - it all just goes on and on...." We are left staring at the light wondering, pondering, with about as much cunning as a deer caught in headlights.
to get a good picture of this, go to: www.photovault.com/Link/Animals/Mammals/ArtiodactylaWild/show.asp?tg=AMAVolume02/AMAV02P08_05B
(the deer here - caugth-in-headlight - is a good picture of how God sees us as we stare into His light and, without the "purpose-grid," try to figure out what that light is all about)
Here's how I see it. O.K., it's just the way I see it, but it sure makes a whole lot of sense to me. There are three realms, and The God of the universe has absolute and perfect knowledg of past, present and future in the first realm. And in the other two realms, He has past and present knowledge, while overseeing and the future as it unfolds while actively and mercifully participating in the present activities of man. I'll explain.
There is a realm in which God knows perfectly the future and speaks of future events and happenings (prophesy) that will come to pass to fulfill His eternal purposes. These are MAJOR events - Jesus' birth, death, resurrection, return, and those events which He clearly says He knows beforehand - such as:
quote:
Acts 17:26-28 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
Acts 15:16-18 'After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, In order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,' Says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.
Eph 1:10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment-- to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
1 Tim 6:13-16 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time-- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Isaiah 48:3 "I declared the former things long ago. And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Dan 2:21-22 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him.
Matt 24:36-37 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Then, there is a realm of "insignificant matters" (such as personal preferences, favorite ice cream, cereal, etc.) in which God leaves things up to us and doesn't NEED to know (because these matters have no significant impact on His eternal purposes). He doesn't need to make these things happen, or not make them happen. Therefore, God, who is a God of purpose, doesn't have a reason (or purpose) to know these things and therefore just leaves those things up to us.
If anything, God, who is also intricately involved in our lives, perhaps experiences a mild joy and delight over our choices of personal preferences - the same way it may delightfully surprise a parent when Johnny chose vanilla ice cream instead of the chocolate (which he always has) just to try something new.
And finally, there is a realm of our will - the exercize of our free will - to do good or evil, in which God again leaves that totally up to us. He doesn't NEED to know because His eternal purposes will be fulfilled no matter what we choose - either the good or the evil. If He did know these choices beforehand, He would have to predispose us to these choices (build them in to our very design/make-up), and/or be meticulously overseeing our lives so that these choices definately would happen.
The decisions of our will, which are made in this realm, only effect where we fit in to the grand scheme of things; for what we choose will determine where we will be for eternity (heaven or hell - according to our receiving or rejecting Jesus, and, if we have believed in Jesus, our choices will determine what place we will have with Him in His Kingdom to come).
And God doesn't need to know that beforehand. The culmination of His vast eternal plan will definately happen - and right on schedule. He leaves it up to us where we fit in that vast eternal plan. How gracious to invite us. How righteous and just to leave it up to us what we do with that invitation, and to do so with showing absolutely no partiality.
He knows that there will be some "takers" - who take His invitation to believe, and who take His invitation to "follow Him, overcome; those who will be granted authority with Him on THAT DAY."*. Any takers out there? He's an "equal opportunity employer."
quote:
* Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
God can and sometimes does intervene in the former two realms because He is God and He can do as He pleases. But in the "personal preferences" realm, He is enjoying us as we explore His wonderful life. In the later of the two realms, He is accomplishing His purpose of training and testing us, and "knowing beforehand" what we would choose would negate that test. He is either benig pleased by our godly choices or grieved by our poor choices. But either way, He is accomplishing His purpose by being a just God, giving each person equal opportunity to either please or grieve Him. No person is in a greater or lesser vantage point to appropriate His grace, humble themselves and follow Him. His ways are truly to be admired and praised! His wisdom is a beautiful thing!
It just doesn't seem so far fetched to me that God, who is a God of purpose, created us to be Jesus' eternal companions and partners, and made provision to redeem us, invites us to believe in His Son, and, after believing, invites us to follow Him - so that we may be purified and trained by Him for a future glorious reign. And though God has the power to know every detail of our "personal preferences" and our "godly or ungodly choices" beforehand, and then cause all those things to happen, He, for His only glory and eternal purposes chooses to simply "oversee" those realms; sometimes with great delight, and sometimes with great grief.
O' that I may bring Him that great delight in the choices I make today! That's the bottom line, isn't it? Today. We may not have tomorrow, but we certainly have today... well, at least this very moment to choose.
Ah - to choose. That which sets us apart from all the other creatures (except the angels, of course, who also got tested for His purposes. Some failed the test, some passed. I think it's two to one of those who passed to those who've failed. see Rev. 12:4).
Choose this day whom you will serve... but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.
quote:
Josh 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/7/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jesus not only told Peter that he would screw up, He also made Peter that way. Jesus, from the beginning of time I guess, decided that He would make Peter in such a way that Peter would screw up. Peter didn't make himself that way. God did. So now we've got God making people sin. Why? To stroke His ego? So He can say I'm better than you? So we'll be so amazed that His muscles are bigger than ours? This seems to me like God with an inferiority complex. [Sahid]
Don't agree with you there...Jesus did not make Peter in such a way that he would screw up as you say....Jesus told his diciples to pray lest they fall under temptation....by free will choice they could have done so...prayed...they didn't...they fell asleep...."The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Jesus said....this does not mean they had to yeild to the flesh and not have been prayed up and strengthened...they could have or Jesus wouldn't have said to them that they could pray and be strengthened...so God didn't make them like they were...to blame God for this is the same thing as blaming a parent who did everything they could to raise a child right....just not fair to do so....give God a break and agree with me that he was not responsible for their sin. I don't think you would do that to a natural parent...why do it to a spiritual one? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/7/2004 2:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sisters: Jesus wasn't "guessing".
Lee: Not about Peter's character! But he was guessing about Peter's actions, according to the OV.
Sisters: Your actions precede out of your character.
Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders."
If He reads Peter's thoughts, that's as good as knowing a future that doesn't exist yet.
Then God knows the future! Really knows it, he does not just guess what will happen. Welcome to EDF-land!
quote:
Sisters: This only happened that one day. Not 100 different days.
Jesus knew Peter's heart, knew Peter's mind, knew the crowd's mind...
That's more than one choice, though. Not just one. I agree that it was just one day, but it was also not just one choice. There were lots of them that were needed!
quote:
Bobber: Did the least used numbers come up like they should have? No.
Yes, probability is a difficult area, I get off track pretty easily, when I try to compute a probability. In the lottery, every day is an independent trial, so numbers that are "due" don't matter, for that reason.
quote:
Michael: There is a realm in which God knows perfectly the future and speaks of future events and happenings (prophesy) that will come to pass to fulfill His eternal purposes. These are MAJOR events.
I think God predicts small events, too, though:
1 Samuel 10:2 When you leave me today, you will meet two men near Rachel's tomb, at Zelzah on the border of Benjamin. They will say to you, 'The donkeys you set out to look for have been found.'
quote:
The decisions of our will, which are made in this realm, only effect where we fit in to the grand scheme of things...
God predicts Saul's decision about two loaves of bread, though!
1 Samuel 10:4 They will greet you and offer you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from them.
quote:
Choose this day whom you will serve... but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.
But then Joshua went on to say:
Joshua 24:19 "You are not able to serve the Lord."
So they needed more than just to make a choice here.
quote:
Sahid: Peter didn't make himself that way. God did. So now we've got God making people sin.
Well, the devil was involved:
Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Thus God did not make Peter sin, directly. And God had a good purpose for this!
John 13:38 - 14:1 Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times! Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me."
I think this implies that Jesus was not just showing his muscle. He was teaching Peter his need of Christ, to fulfill even Peter's best intentions.
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/7/2004 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
That's more than one choice, though. Not just one. I agree that it was just one day, but it was also not just one choice. There were lots of them that were needed!
And of course we all know that God is so limited in his ability to influence events that He would have had to have possessed EDF in order to predict these things.
quote:
I think God predicts small events, too, though:
1 Samuel 10:2 When you leave me today, you will meet two men near Rachel's tomb, at Zelzah on the border of Benjamin. They will say to you, 'The donkeys you set out to look for have been found.'
And we all know that God simply couldn't have caused these two men to run into Saul at such a precise location, nor could he have known that these men were already on their way to find Saul to tell him this. And surely God couldn't have led these men to go near Rachel's tomb in such a way that they arrived in that area right about the time Saul arrived. And we certainly know God couldn't have woken Saul up and started him on his way at precisely the right time for him to run into these guys who were looking for him in the first place. Nah. Way too far-fetched.
quote:
God predicts Saul's decision about two loaves of bread, though!
1 Samuel 10:4 They will greet you and offer you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from them.
Open Theists do not deny that God sometimes deterministically causes people to perform non-moral actions.
quote:
Choose this day whom you will serve... but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.
But then Joshua went on to say:
Joshua 24:19 "You are not able to serve the Lord."
So they needed more than just to make a choice here.
And the REASON why they were not able to serve the Lord is plainly revealed by the connection made in the context between v.19 and v.20:
Josh 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, "You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good." 21 And the people said to Joshua, "Nay; but we will serve the LORD." 22 Then Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him." And they said, "We are witnesses." 23 He said, "Then put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD, the God of Israel."
(Sure sounds like Joshua (under divine inspiration) was telling them to exercise their will in submitting to the Lord. It also sounds like Joshua was using a form of "reverse psychology" on them, provoking them to make a fully committed and fully informed choice. If any could not it is because they would not, for God had promised them before that he would "circumcise their hearts, so that they may serve the LORD").
24 And the people said to Joshua, "The LORD our God we will serve, and his voice we will obey." 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made statutes and ordinances for them at Shechem.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 7/7/2004 7:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee Merrill: God predicts Saul's decision about two loaves of bread, though!
1 Samuel 10:4 They will greet you and offer you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from them.
quote:
John Earp: Open Theists do not deny that God sometimes deterministically causes people to perform non-moral actions.
My response: I agree, and I have stated this same thing when I said:
quote:
Bemabound: God can and sometimes does intervene in the former two realms because He is God and He can do as He pleases.
And when He does intervene, it seems to me that the intervention is either regarding details that don't involve moral choices of the will (as in your example above), or, those times when He intervenes and imposes Himself on our wills - always in His mercy and to accomplish His purposes - such as knocking the Apostle Paul off his "high horse," or like the time when He had a donkey speak His Words - lovingly repuking the manipulative Prophet Balaam so that he may stop his foolish ways!
He doesn't ALWAYS just let us go our own way according to our own choices (thank God!). My opinion is that God would rather us ask Him to intervene than for Him to imposes His will on us against our foolish choices. In other words, the committed and wise Christian prays, "O Dear Father, intervene in my life any time you see fit - to get my attention if I'm straying. And if I fight and kick, don't pay any attention to me. Just continue on what You think is best in my life for Your pruposes. In Jesus Name." In this way, God is simply answering our prayer to intervene, rather than lovingly disciplining us against our wills. If I "Humble myself" then He doesn't have to "humble me."
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/8/2004 3:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But God knew Satan would ask when He created Satan. If God knew what all "free will" actions would come as a result of creation be before he created (Satan's temptation and Peter's sin), and He choose to make stuff that way, it's He who is responsible. [Sahid]
No I don't think so....and I guess I and maybe others will always disagree with you on that one point. I would suggest that God still had the right to create free will creatures, and have a family regardless of what some choose or don't choose. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/8/2004 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
And of course we all know that God is so limited in his ability to influence events that He would have had to have possessed EDF in order to predict these things.
I think my conclusion still stands, though, even if, with all God can do to influence the course of events, there are 100 90% probability events that need to happen. Even if there are 100 99% probability events...
quote:
Lee: I think God predicts small events, too, though:
John: ... we certainly know God couldn't have woken Saul up and started him on his way at precisely the right time for him to run into these guys who were looking for him in the first place.
Well, I wasn't trying to focus on the probability here. Just the smallness of the event. That was the point I was responding to, that God only predicts major events.
quote:
Lee: God predicts Saul's decision about two loaves of bread, though!
John: Open Theists do not deny that God sometimes deterministically causes people to perform non-moral actions.
Well, this is weird. God is willing to make Saul accept two loaves of bread, but he won't stop a murder! I think that shows that the priorities are out of order here, people will force the issue when moral choices are involved, so why won't God do that? When a person is sent to jail, that is forcibly restricting their moral choices, because they showed themselves to need such restrictions.
quote:
Joshua 24:19 "You are not able to serve the Lord."
Lee: So they needed more than just to make a choice here.
John: If any could not it is because they would not, for God had promised them before that he would "circumcise their hearts, so that they may serve the LORD".
But more was needed than just a choice here, then! God had to change their hearts. And this may be a prediction, "that you will love the Lord" (Dt. 30:6, ESV). Like this verse:
EZE 36:29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.
Joshua 24:25 On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he drew up for them decrees and laws.
But they still couldn't serve the Lord! The whole book of Judges is one failure after another. And the reason is that they were choosing on their own:
Judges 21:25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
quote:
Michael: it seems to me that the intervention is either regarding details that don't involve moral choices of the will (as in your example above), or, those times when He intervenes and imposes Himself on our wills - always in His mercy and to accomplish His purposes - such as knocking the Apostle Paul off his "high horse" ...
I almost agree! God is willing to intervene, even in the area of moral choices.
quote:
Sahid: If God knew what all "free will" actions would come as a result of creation be before he created (Satan's temptation and Peter's sin), and He choose to make stuff that way, it's He who is responsible.
I agree, God is responsible for the actions, and he is not guilty, because he is responsible for the outcome, too, which is good. All I'm saying here is that God did not cause Peter's sin directly. But it was in God's plan, and it was a plan for good.
quote:
You may feel like you could have chosen otherwise, but God knows you couldn't have. That would have made God wrong about the future.
But then God can't choose freely, either! Even according to the OV. If God knew he was going to decide to create the world at time X, then that decision, when he created the world at time X, was not free. Any decision God knows he is going to make, cannot be free, if what you said is true.
Thus for God to make free decisions in the OV, they all have to be spur-of-the-moment...
Blessings,
Lee
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