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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 4/26/2004 8:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | In this whole openness debate, by not focusing on the eternal purpose of God, we can easily miss the forest for the trees. I wrote this article (with footnotes) on what I understand to be God's main purpose for us: the AUTHENTIC testing our volition - our (wild) wills so that He can entrust to us His true riches. He's raising up a people to whom He can entrust His true riches in His Kingdom to come. This is what I understand His eternal purpose to be. I'm hoping that this may be one of the missing puzzle pieces in the open view debate. "Thinking" is a wonderful gift God has given to us and I'm impressed by the many good thinkers in this Open View debate. Thinkers - think on! Here's the paper [it's a long one -  )...hope you enjoy! 
God Is Very OPEN About Testing Us – Training Us
(How we’re being tested for an eternal companionship and partnership
in a kingdom to come)
If life is mainly a test – and by test I mean a purifying – then these tests must be authentic ones. By authentic tests, I mean that there is no pre-programming of, nor any over-influencing by God toward the person being tested. God’s intent in creating us is to raise up people who are victorious in this testing process. He’s raising up and training a people for a future reign with Him; people in whom He can trust with His true riches – Kingdom responsibilities not just now, but in the Kingdom to come. This is His very purpose for which we were created and redeemed. His eternal purpose. [FOOTNOTE 1]
Not knowing beforehand how we’ll do in these test of life is how God authenticates the testing of our wills. Not only does God not need to know, but knowing beforehand would actually defeat His very purpose. For how can He confidently entrust the riches of His Kingdom to one whom He has had to pre-program and/or micro-manage? If this were the case, sure, the end result would be someone on whom you can depend – but in the same way a expert mechanic can depend on his car- the one that he designed, built and micro-manages. There would be no authentic reciprocal love from that car. You wind up a toy and it comes to you. What glory is in that? What brings God glory is a (once) wild volition that has become willingly tamed and ready to do His bidding.
You see, a volition, a will, is so initially raw, so wild, that it would be foolish to entrust that person with Kingdom responsibility unless his volition was authentically tested. It needs to be tested and tamed and brought under submission to Jesus Christ if it’s going to be trusted.
And how does one pass that test? How is one entrusted with His true riches? The authentic testing of our wills (our volitions) would look like this: God would train someone and love someone until that person is able to make a right, moral choice without any influence from Him. God, in a sense, backs off and says, “O.K., I’ve trained you and you’re able to choose the right way without any help from me. I’m watching to see what you will do with that wild will of yours.” That person will pass the test if he trusts God; willingly cleaves to Him and wisely stands on His Word – holding on to the promise of proven character which leads to a deeper companionship and partnership with Him. And those who truly trust God in those times of testing are qualifying themselves for those true riches. God can now trust that person and entrust to them His true riches – both now and in the Kingdom to come. He then can say, “Now I know that you fear God..." (Genesis 22:13. Remember, He’s raising up co-rulers for a Kingdom to come). Jesus said,
“A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.” (Luke 6:40)
Rev 3:18-22 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me [companionship]. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, [partnership] just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
When we are able to choose good without His micro-managing influence, then, after He has trained us and equipped us we will show Him that we can be trusted. And "choosing good" really boils down to joining Jesus in a Partnership of Love: losing our lives in Him in order that we might find them as we deeply care for His people. The Apostle Paul passed this test with flying colors. He got to the point where he could "delight in his sufferings" (2 Cor. 12;7-10) and said of God's people "For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy" (1 Thess. 2:19,20). Can I say this? Can you say this? If not, expect more tests from God to bring us to the end of ourselves (2 Cor. 1:8,9) and lead us into this rich life of partnership with our Master and Great Lover, Jesus Christ. When a Christian can rejoice in suffering like this, and so deeply partner with Jesus in His love for people, that Christian has done well in the tests of this life. This is what James calls the justification of our works (not the justification of our souls when we first believed and God declares us "not guilty" of eternal punishment) in James 2:20-26 [FOOTNOTE 2]
Observe the continual emphasis of this “testing” in the Scriptures. In the book of Job, Satan said (my paraphrase), “God, if you remove your blessings and protection, Job won’t follow you – he’ll curse you.” In other words, Satan was saying that the only reason Job was following Him was because He was micro-managing Him. God backed off and let Satan knock the tar out of him – and God didn’t intervene:
Job 2:3-6 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason." "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face." The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job knew that he was in a test. God used the trial to purify Job by surfacing some hidden sin in Job’s heart (as righteous as he was). Yet, even though Job uttered a few arrogant statements to God during the process of his trial (and he later repented of his arrogance), he knew Who was behind the test and had the confidence he would come through victoriously:
Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.
Could it be that Job’s understanding of this test (that this was a testing of his character) was the reason he was able to endure the test? And is this why many of us fail the test; because we don’t understand that we are being tested for a purpose...for a future reign? He’s raising up co-rulers for a glorious Kingdom to come. Job knew that God was up to something BIG for man. What else would explain all this continual testing:
Job 7:17-18 "What is man that you make so much of him, that you give him so much attention, that you examine him every morning and test him every moment?
The Old Testament writers kept coming back to this theme. From Moses to Zechariah the central theme was this testing. Here are (quite) a few passages from the Hebrew Scriptures. Are these "testings" a theme here or what?
Exod 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions."
Deut 8:2-3 Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart [FOOTNOTE 3], whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
Zech 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"
Prov 17:3 The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart.
Ps 66:10 For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.
Ps 17:3 Though you probe my heart and examine me at night, though you test me, you will find nothing; I have resolved that my mouth will not sin.
Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
Ps 26:2 Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind;
2 Chr 32:31 But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.
1 Chr 29:17 I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things have I given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you.
Judg 3:4 They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.
Jer 9:7 Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?
Jer 11:20 But, O LORD Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you I have committed my cause.
Jer 12:3 Yet you know me, O LORD; you see me and test my thoughts about you. Drag them off like sheep to be butchered! Set them apart for the day of slaughter!
Lam 3:40 Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD.
quote:
The following intro, Sctipture passage and following four paragraphs were inserted later on -
In the passage below, God Himself calmly declares that He knows some things only as they happened. When there's no data to know beforehand, then we ought to resist imposing this foreknowledge on God (in order to squeeze Him into our finite understanding of omniscience and foreknowledge). When we do this, we miss what God is actually after: testing His people for His purposes...
Gen 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
"Now I know... because.." Does that mean that God didn't know before? If our being tested is what God is after, then He doesn't need to know - nor can God know that which is not knowable (since the knoweldge is based on how we will respond to His tests).
When it comes to our being tested, how would the terms reward or discipline have any meaning at all if God knows beforehand the results of the test He's giving to us. The words reward and discipline become meaningless if God is knowing beforehand all that we will do (regarding how and if we will pass or fail the tests He gives us).
If those unique rewards (that come from passing His tests) and disciplines (which come from failing those tests) were known by God before He created us, then the real questions are: How are they true and authentic rewards? How are they true and authentic disciplines?
To many, God doesn't have permission to know some things only as they're happening. "God, You must know all future things before they happen, else you are not the God we're proclaiming!" cry the Calvinists. "I don't care if you can still somehow be the sovereign God of the Universe without knowing all of our future choices beforehand. You just MUST know everything before it happens - and I don't care if it means that you can't authentically test us. You're just confusing me if you claim to not know all my choices beforehand - even if I don't give you anything (any data) to know. I still want You to know all things - past, persent and future - if you don't mind. Then I can feel totally secure in the way I'd like to view You."
In the New Testament, our resurrected Lord is still allowing the enemy to test us:
Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
The writers of Scripture spoke of these tests as the core of our Christian life. Paul says that we are “destined” for these tests; “appointed” to them:
1Thes 3:2-4 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God's fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them. In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know.
Notice how the great encourager, Paul, emphasized that we ought to be aware of these trials, and that as we are aware of these testings we would be strengthened and encouraged. Can we hear the desire of Paul – crying out to us to put these as front and center in our thinking…“So that no one would be unsettled…we were destined for them…we kept telling you…..” ?
The frequency of Paul’s, Peter’s and James’ mention of “tests” or “trials” (and positioning this thought in the opening of their letters and epistles) is significant. They encouraged believers to remember that life is a test, and that they need to have the glorious end in mind while they go through the test:
2 Cor 1:8-9 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.
1 Pet 1:7 These [testings] have come so that your faith-- of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-- may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
James 1:2-4, 12 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything…Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Paul got the clue that God wasn’t going to deliver him from one particular trial; that God backed off and wanted to see if Paul was going to trust Him and rejoice in Him and grow up. If this is God’s remedy for delivering us all from our proclivity to be conceited, then we all must eventually grow up like Paul:
2 Cor 12:7-10 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me [inferring that God gave this to Him – a real gift indeed!] a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
This is why the emphasis on accountability is heard more and more today. We’re discovering that accountability with a brother helps us pass the tests of life more successfully. Accountability is more and more welcomed because we realize that with a little "reporting in" now and then we get ourselves ready for that time when God tests us. Jesus called it, “The time of your visitation” in Luke 19:44c KJV. Accountability also helps us be better prepared for that Final Test (2 Cor. 5:7-10).
There are really only two tests in this life The Tests are:
1) THE INITIAL TEST – to see whether or not we will believe in Jesus. To believe in Jesus or to not believe in Jesus. One passes this test by believing in Jesus. When a person believes, he is justified and secures his eternal home in heaven. One fails this test by not believing in Jesus and refusing His gift of salvation, of forgiveness and eternal life. The result is hell.
2) The second test is THE LIFELONG TEST. It’s a test for the believers. To pass the purifying tests in life to see if we will truly trust Him, so that He can see if He can trust us and entrust to us His eternal riches - positions with Him in His Kingdom – both now, and especially in the Kingdom to come (i.e. eternal rewards…degrees of rulership with Him…being His eternal companions and partners). The Judgment Seat of Christ is the final evaluation of this test; the Final Exam so to say. Our works, words, and motives will be put to the fire and only that which is pure will remain (1 Cor. 3:10-17; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:7-10).
Life boils down to relationships, and relationships become not only the primary means of testing, they become our very reward. Is not our relationships the way in which God reveals our true maturity (or lack of it)? As a Pastor, I can feel quite spiritual at times, but it's in my relationship with my wife that I see my real maturity (and usually - the lack of it).
And our relationships are also our greatest reward. God says:
Eccl 9:9 Live happily with the woman you love through the fleeting days of life, for the wife God gives you is your best reward down here for all your earthly toil.(TLB)
And our Greatest reward is our relationship with God Himself:
Gen 15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."
Ps 16:11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
Ps 142:5 I cry to you, O LORD; I say, "You are my refuge, my portion in the land of the living."
Lam 3:24 I say to myself, "The LORD is my portion; therefore I will wait for him."
There are two words I’ve “landed on” when it comes to describing the relational rewards - those rewards which bring man tastes of fullness of joy and purpose here and now, and complete fullness of joy and purpose in the life to come. The words are COMPANIONSHIP and PARTNERSHIP. Companionship is “being” with someone and partnership is the “doing” with someone. Why the emphasis on companions and partners? Why does everything boil down to these two positions? Could this be the very purpose for which we were designed and redeemed? From Genesis to Revelation, the invitation to companionship and partnership is clear. Adam and Eve had companionship with God, and were partners - rulers of the earth. Some of the last words Jesus gave to us emphasizes both companionship and partnership (Rev. 3:20-22).
Our relationship with God is our most important one and next to that is our relationships one with another. This thought also lines up with the Great Commandment and the Second greatest commandment (Matt. 22:36-40).
With that thought, let me sum it all up in one or two sentences. Yes, I'm going to give it a shot; the eternal purpose of God in a nutshell. Here goes: 
"God, who is complete in Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), created us to be His eternal companions and partners – or – to be Jesus’ eternal companions and partners (the latter corresponding more with the 'Bride and Groom' and the 'Body and Head' themes in Scripture). In creating us, God also created within Himself a need [FOOTNOTE 4] - a need that only we could meet as we willingly follow Him." In His love and for His own glory, God has some of His eternal plan pre-written, and on the other hand, God is open for us to write our part in His story through the decisions we make.
If this is truly God's purpose, then our main task in life is to meet this need that God created in Himself - the need that (by His deliberate choice) only we can meet. And the two main questions in life would be, “How does one become a believer in Jesus – taking that first step toward companion and partner with Jesus Christ?” and “Once one becomes an initial companion and partner, how does one become a dearer and more trusted companion and partner of Jesus Christ?” These questions address the true tests in life. We answer the first question and pass the first test by believing in Jesus. We answer the second question by our daily and moment by moment choices. And here’s where the openness of God is truly understood. God doesn’t need to know any of our choices beforehand, for in knowing them beforehand, this would defeat His very purpose for creating us. It would ruin the test. There would be no need for a test if the outcome is guaranteed. The test therefore becomes meaningless.
To know something beforehand would be to guarantee it will happen. That would eliminate any chance or even opportunity for it to not happen. And if there’s no chance or opportunity for it to not happen, then there is no authentic testing that is taking place. [FOOTNOTE 5] The only way a desired end could be guaranteed would be if God pre-programmed us – wired us – so that certain things would happen and/or that God would micro-manage us in order to guarantee a certain outcome which He saw beforehand. This would completely defeat God’s purpose in bringing each person to the two tests of life.
We will be found grasping for meaning and purpose in this life if we don't understand the glorious companionship and partnership for which we were designed and to which we are called. When one realizes that God is desiring to trust us and entrust to us His true riches, that person clearly sees that the trials and tests we go through lead to rich meaning and purpose.
Is it so far fetched to say that God, who is full of purpose, who is the Majestic Ruler, who created us in His image and likeness, created us to partake with Him in this meaning and purpose in a rulership capacity? The writer of Hebrews says, "For we are partakers [metochoi] with Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Heb. 3:14 my translation).
And building upon that thought, is it far fetched to say that He created us to be eternal companions and partners with Him in some aspects of His rulership? Three times in the book of Revelation there is a mention of the overcomers “reigning with Him.” (Rev. 5:10; 20:6; 22:5). Two more times it’s said in this way, “I will give authority” and “I will grant to sit with me on my throne” (Rev. 2:25-29; 3:21,22). God certainly does have big plans for us.
God is so willing and completely open for us to aspire to sit with Him in rich companionship and to be His eternal partners. I can almost hear Him say, “O, that all my sons and daughters would want to enter into richer companionship and partnership with Me!” But, here’s the real sobering thought: It’s not all "set in concrete" yet. He’s so open and so secure in Himself, that He is willing to open Himself up for certain unexpected pains and pleasures (it's O.K... He can handle them...and it won't throw Him off His throne). He is open to allow us to co-write some of the Story with Him.
In other words, the story is not completely prescripted. We get to co-write some of the script with Him! Each one of us will bring into eternity a story of His mercy and grace – even those who don’t believe (in the end, they will tell His story of what happens to one who rejects His gift of eternal life). He invites us to be a part of the glory story. And He does this for His own honor and glory. For again, what glory is there in prescripting a story from beginning to end and then micro-managing that story to guarantee its outcome?
But it brings God great glory to leave this story open to “Whosoever will…”. “Whosoever will…” can be a part of the glory side of the story, and “Whosoever will…” can be a part of the shame side of the story. He knows that there will be many believers who won’t aspire to a deeper companionship and partnership with Him (though who those people are, He doesn’t need to know; that's really up to us). And the Great Equal Opportunity Employer (the One who is no respecter of persons) delights when one rises up and says to the enemy and to the world: “You can have this world! I want my Jesus and His Kingdom. Father, sign me up for that companionship and partnership!”
And when we stand before Jesus on that Final Day, we will realize that our rewards weren’t secured from the beginning of time, nor did His cross secure our rewards. His cross and resurrection secured our eternal salvation the moment we believed in Him. They also secured for us the opportunity for character and reward. But our pursuit of Him or lack of that pursuit will determine our rewards (or lack of them) on That Day. God is open and longing to reward each person on That Day. Oh may we be found on That Day with our lamps burning!
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F O O T N O T E S
[FOOTNOTE 1] We're talking eternal “Co-Rulership”. Observe the correlation with suffering/enduring (passing the tests) and co-ruling. Eternal life is a free gift, but the reward of eternal companionship and partnership is for those who have suffered well, loved well, endured, overcome. We are heirs of God who grants eternal life to any one who simply believes in Jesus. We are “co-heirs” if we suffer with Him. The following passages reveal this to us:
Rom 8:17-18 Now if we are children, then we are heirs-- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
[the disowning in this next verse is a “disqualifying from rulership” - not a losing of one’s salvation]
2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him.If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
2 Tim 4:6-8 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day-- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Rev 3:21-22 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
[FOOTNOTE 2] James is responding to the man who has no faith and is bragging about his works. In his argument, James lets his fictitious antagonist know that faith is the only champion of pure and righteous works. In his illustration, James is letting the antagonist know that faith, when it is growing in us, produces all sorts of good works. Thus, a believer’s good works shows that his faith is very much alive - that he's "passing the test" and thus, is justified from hypocrisy (talking the talk, but not walking the walk). James is obviously not talking about being justified (declared "not guilty") from the penalty of hell - lest we're back to thinking we are saved from this penalty by our works.
[FOOTNOTE 3] God knows our history, our inclinations and the intents of our heart. The God, who knows and tests our hearts (in that He knows what our hearts are capable of, both the good and the evil), knows experientially what is in our hearts while our choices are being made. And, of course, God knows all those things that He states in His Word He knows - which is absolutely everything except that which He never states He knows beforehand (i.e. our moral choices). In other words, God has not "pre-programmed in us," nor does He "make us" do the good or evil for which we will either be rewarded or judged, for that would defeat His purpose of authentically testing us so that He may entrust to us His Kingdom. It would also make His judgments unjust for God would be showing partiality. God indeed knows all things except for two areas that He keeps "open" - that which is unknowable: the future moral choices we haven't yet made, and some of our choices in the realm of our personal preferences; choices which are neither moral nor immoral - like if I'm going to choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream for dessert tomorrow (though He knows I like them both equally the same). There are qualifications to God's Omnipotence - God's power and ability to do all things. He IS NOT ABLE to do things that go against His nature: He can't lie, He can't NOT love. And He can't do things that are just absurd (like create a rock heavier then He can lift, and then lift that rock). Why is it so difficult to understand that there are also qualifications to His Omniscience. He knows all that which is knowable, and all that which He needs to know. And though He has the power to know everything, to know every meticulous detail of every future choice every person makes, this would go against His purpose - which is to authentically test us, so that He can trust us for a future reign with Jesus.
[FOOTNOTE 4] Much more could be said of this “created need” that our Creator created within Himself, but the important thing is to understand that this created need of God opens God up to be pleased or grieved with our choices – choices that He doesn’t need to know beforehand. One more thing about this “created need” – there is a limit that God builds within this need. To observe the way good parents treat their children, we can understand both the created need and the limits on this need. Parents (unwittingly) create a need within themselves when they decide to have a child. Upon growing up that child can break the heart or please the heart of the parent. But, with a mature parent, even if the child broke his/her heart, if the parent is mature, he/she won't allow his or her life or marriage to be destroyed over the wayward child. That mature parent would not allow that child to bring chaos into their world or in to their home. The mature parents say, “This far and no more.” They put up boundaries and will not allow that child to throw their world into chaos. Similarly, God opens Himself up to be hurt by man’s rebellion and defiance and selfishness and foolishness. And He opens Himself up to be pleased by our love to Him and to one another. Yet, He will not allow His relationship within Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to be jeopardized, nor will He allow His Universe to be thrown into chaos, nor will He allow His plan for man on earth to be thwarted by one person’s or many people’s rebellion. His plan WILL succeed – because He knows that there will be enough of those who will be receptive and obedient to His will and plan – to believe in his Son, and to respond to His invitation to companionship and partnership. His love is so irresistible, so winning, that He can count on many who will believe in Him and some who will wholeheartedly follow Him.
[FOOTNOTE 5] The only exception to this is Jesus – who was and is the God-man. It was not possible for God to sin and we cannot separate the God essence and the human essence in Jesus. His authentic test was different from ours in that the self-existing God doesn’t need to be tested. Jesus went through His authentic test for a different reason than us. He went through the same tests that we go through and will go through so that He could feel what we feel and help us in our time of need (Heb. 4:12-16).
Pastor Michael
Scottsdale, Arizona
Our purpose statement: Together, enjoying companionship and partnership with our Lord Jesus Christ as we get ready for That Day.
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 4/26/2004 9:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Michael,
I haven't yet had a chance to read your post in depth, but I definitely like your thesis. It reminds me of John Hick's "soul-making" theodicy, which contends that God created us not as fully formed souls but rather as souls in embryo, as it were, and that part of God's purpose for us is to refine and mature us through testing so that we may become more capable of enjoying His kingdom. Here's a short quote from his book "The Philosophy of Religion" (3rd ed.), pp. 40-46:
"The skeptic's assumption is that man is to be viewed as a completed creation and that God's purpose in making the world was to provide a suitable dwelling place for this fully-formed creature. ... Christianity, however, has never supposed that God's purpose in the creation of the world was to construct a paradise whose inhabitants would experience a maximum of pleasure and a minimum of pain. The world is seen, instead, as a place of 'soul-making' in which free beings, grappling with the takes and challenges of their existence in a common environment, may become 'children of God' and 'heirs of eternal life.'"
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/27/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome aboard BemaBound,
Thanks for sharing your paper, I really enjoyed reading it. I strongly agree with you about being accountable for our choices in life and the magnitude our relationship with the Lord has when dealing with others. This world is full of multiple choice tests that we face daily; it would be a cruel joke if our Creator somehow rigged our volition and ultimately the results.
Peace,
Mark
Luke 16:11 (NIV)
So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 4/27/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Michael, and welcome from me, too!
I'm not an Open Viewer, I'm a Calvinist who doesn't subscribe to limited atonement. Just to let you know...
quote:
For how can He confidently entrust the riches of His Kingdom to one whom He has had to pre-program and/or micro-manage?
I believe that God's children have real freedom, that they can make real choices, after submitting to God:
JN 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
1CO 9:5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us?
I think Paul is saying here that either choice was in God's will, that God's will is not a monorail, he could really choose here.
quote:
What brings God glory is a (once) wild volition that has become willingly tamed and ready to do His bidding.
But I think unbelievers are slaves of sin and the devil:
JN 8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."
GAL 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
quote:
The authentic testing of our wills (our volitions) would look like this: God would train someone and love someone until that person is able to make a right, moral choice without any influence from Him.
I don't think that's possible, though:
RO 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh.
I think this is Paul, the Christian, talking.
quote:
... the story is not completely prescripted. We get to co-write some of the script with Him!
Yes, I agree. And I think also that God knows all choices, even his own choices! But his choices still are free, and choices people make within his will are free, too, though they are known as well.
Blessings,
Lee
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/28/2004 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 4/30/2004 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Just checking something. Never mind me.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 5/2/2004 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Allow me to post a few thoughts:
quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
I wrote this article (with footnotes) on what I understand to be God's AUTHENTIC testing our volition - our (wild) wills - as His main purpose.
In once sense, this concept suggests that God’s real purpose is a test of wills. If we go back to the Garden before sin, how does this play out? Let’s take a different path from what actually happened and say that three generations did not sin and we have several hundred people on the earth who are sinless. (Wouldn’t that be nice?) How does this thesis play? What is God testing for in that case?
Do you see where I am going? If the case were different, if man hadn’t sinned soon after creation, what was God’s intent for the creation? This questions, not the authenticity of the test (it is only an authentic test in the a world where there is true free will), rather the idea that this is the test is the main purpose.
I support the idea that the main purpose of creation was to have relationship with beings who can authentically love back. I can choose to love my wife or not just as I can choose to love God or not. This was his primary purpose. Without an authentic test (a free will) how can the test be authentic? It cannot.
Lee wrote after stating he is a non-limited atonement Calvinist:
quote:
I believe that God's children have real freedom, that they can make real choices, after submitting to God:
This is a false idea because to choose God must be free and not forced or the choice is not authentic, it is forced. I can force my hamster into doing something (she may bite back) but this is not her free choice to do it, rather she is forced to do it. I cannot force her to love me, in fact, I am her least favorite person in the family. While I don’t force her to do things, she still bites me. :(
Lee: the freedom to which you refer is the freedom from paying the penalty from sin, not the freedom to choose not to sin. If the lost could not choose right, then judgment is unjust.
So here I disagree only with the primary reason for creation as being the test itself. Our primary purpose (reason for being created) is to love God.
quote:
Not only does God not need to know, but knowing beforehand would actually defeat His own purpose.
Here I believe you made an error in that I do not believe God can know without determining. It isn’t a matter of God choosing not to know, rather, he choose to create a certain way (man with free will) and this method entails not being able to know what will happen.
I don’t see a difference between him choosing not to know (implies the data is present and he doesn’t look at it) and him actually knowing. At least as far as free will is concerned because if the data preexists my choice, then I had no choice, I am merely conforming to the data that determined a path.
quote:
God would train someone and love someone until that person is able to make a right, moral choice without any influence from Him.
Anyone can make a right moral choice. People who are unsaved do this all the time. The number of wrong moral choices the majority of people make is reasonably small. Millions of angry people choose not to murder the person whom they are angry at every day of the week.
This is a hangover from the total depravity model.
quote:
When we are able to choose good without His micro-managing influence, then, after He has trained us and equipped us we will show Him that we can be trusted. This is what James calls the justification of our works (not of our eternal souls) in James 2:20-26
Again, even the lost choose rightly many times each day and certainly without being micro-managed by God. Again, most people can be trusted to choose morally most of the time. Even a bank robber doesn’t choose immorally all the time, it’s just those times when he/she chooses wrongly that stand out and we define them by those actions (he is a “bank robber”). This is not to address all the other moral choices he may make poorly also, but merely the point that most people make correct moral choices most of the time.
I need to get to church, sorry I don’t have more time, but we need to be sure not to make small errors in our thinking. Small error make small changes in direction that accumulate and, far down the road, turn out to be false doctrine, like the classical theisms.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/2/2004 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Newcomb,
quote:
Bemabound: I wrote this article (with footnotes) on what I understand to be God's AUTHENTIC testing our volition - our (wild) wills - as His main purpose.
Newcomb: In once sense, this concept suggests that God’s real purpose is a test of wills. ... Do you see where I am going? If the case were different, if man hadn’t sinned soon after creation, what was God’s intent for the creation? ... I support the idea that the main purpose of creation was to have relationship with beings who can authentically love back. I can choose to love my wife or not just as I can choose to love God or not. This was his primary purpose. Without an authentic test (a free will) how can the test be authentic? It cannot.
I agree that the point of creation was the relationship, but don't you love your wife with love that comes from God? Don't we love God with love that comes from him, too?
1JN 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
We are in need of more than just a choice before us, whether to love or not. We cannot love on our own, and thus we cannot choose to love on our own.
quote:
Lee: I believe that God's children have real freedom, that they can make real choices, after submitting to God...
Newcomb: This is a false idea because to choose God must be free and not forced or the choice is not authentic, it is forced.
I agree that God's choices are free, and that, within God's will, people can make free choices, that God's will is not a monorail.
quote:
Bemabound: Not only does God not need to know, but knowing beforehand would actually defeat His own purpose.
Newcomb: Here I believe you made an error in that I do not believe God can know without determining. It isn’t a matter of God choosing not to know, rather, he choose to create a certain way (man with free will) and this method entails not being able to know what will happen.
Then how can God know men's free-will choices in Revelation?
REV 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent...
quote:
Bemabound: God would train someone and love someone until that person is able to make a right, moral choice without any influence from Him.
Newcomb: Anyone can make a right moral choice. People who are unsaved do this all the time.
I don't think so, though:
GAL 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!
I think you are saying that righteousness could have come through the law, that lost people can choose not to sin, thus they could fulfil the law without Christ's death being needed. But this is not possible:
RO 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
And unbelievers cannot live according to the Spirit, and thus they cannot keep the law, the law is powerless...
Blessings,
Lee
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 5/2/2004 2:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Newcomb,
First of all, thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my post. This is my first post and I appreciate how Christus Victor Ministries set up this format and forum. This kind of discussion is like iron sharpening iron. May the result be His sharpened tools united for His glory and purposes.
I'll respond to some of your feedback. You said:
quote:
In once sense, this concept suggests that God’s real purpose is a test of wills. If we go back to the Garden before sin, how does this play out? Let’s take a different path from what actually happened and say that three generations did not sin and we have several hundred people on the earth who are sinless. (Wouldn’t that be nice?) How does this thesis play? What is God testing for in that case?
Perhaps I've worded this incorrectly. The purpose is for Jesus to have eternal companions and partners - NOT so that we can be tested. Yet, in order for Him to have these companions and partners, He would have to put us through certain tests in order for us to be trained for that rulership with Him.
I don't see this scenario of "what if man didn't sin" as a possibility (I do believe that God knew that all people would sin and fall short of His glory). The Scriptures seem to suggest that God knew that man would sin before He even created him or the world and that Jesus would be sent to die for man's sin: quote:
"... All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world...(Rev. 13:8)
quote:
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 1 Pet 1:18-20
Yet, even if that were a possibility, it still doesn't change the fact that we are here to be tested, in order to be companions and partners for Jesus; people in whom He could entrust with His riches of rulership. Sinless man would still have to be tested with the possiblity to do good or evil. It seems to me that any being to whom God gives volition goes through a testing - even the angels. Some passed the test, some failed.
So, now that we're in our sinful state, the testing of the will is more challenging. Yet, He give us the grace to overcome the sinfull pulls within us due to our fallen natures.
You also said:
quote:
I don’t see a difference between him choosing not to know (implies the data is present and he doesn’t look at it) and him actually knowing. At least as far as free will is concerned because if the data preexists my choice, then I had no choice, I am merely conforming to the data that determined a path.
Perhaps I've worded that incorrectly too. It's not that the data is there (beforehand) to be known and He chooses to not know it. It's that the data just isn't there at all (beforehand, that is). This is my point exactly. This data happens as one is making a choice. The DATA that comes through a person's being able to choose either God or sin. This is information that comes into existence AS IT IS HAPPENING. One can say, "But God knows our hearts." Yes, He does. He knows the full capacity of the good or evil our hearts can do. And He knows if decisions have been made in our hearts - the moment they are made...even if we're not conscious of those decisions (such as Peter's decision to deny Him three times; obviously, Peter was not conscious of that decision and was self-deceived and blinded by his own self-confidence). THAT'S the data I'm talking about. You can be sure that God knows all the available data there is in existence. But there are some data that only come into existence WHEN the choice is made - and not beforehand.
God would be defeating His own purpose if He were to foreknow this kind of moral choosing data; to pre-program this data into our souls before it happened, and/or to micro-manage it so that there would be a guarantee that it would happen (after all, that which He knows beforehand definately will happen).
The human will (which, remember, is His creation) is so untamed (and again, He created it that way) that in order to absolutely guarantee a pre-determined outcome of that will, there would need that kind of pre-programming and/or micro managing. But, if that is happening, that will is no longer free - and God is not glorified. That’s why I believe God uses His loving influence to prepare us for the tests that He has for us - and then He "backs off." He does it for His own glory. He doesn't need to know beforehand what we will do. Tevya (of Fiddler on the Roof) asked God, ""Would it hurt some vast eternal plan ... if I were a wealthy man?" He too suspected that it actually wouldn't hinder God's vast eternal plan if he were a rich man (though it might make it even harder for Tevya to enter into the Kingdom of God). In other words, God's vast eternal plan will stand. It will be accomplished. Period. But just where you and I fit in to that purpose - that's partly up to us. Just think of the glory He recieves when He gets a response of love without making us love Him.
Yes, to love God and enjoy companionship and partnership with Him forever is the chief purpose of man. But the song, "You made me love you.. I didn't want to do it - no, I didn't want to do it..." is not the song God wants to hear from us. That doesn't glorify Him. He wants more of a: "Lord, without coercing me, Your love has won my heart."
I agree that people can make moral choices without being saved. But it's only because God is that one that built into them a conscience (so He gets the glory whether they're giving it to Him or not). Also, there are some things that nature teaches us. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for not learning the first lessons of resurrection from nature:
quote:
1 Cor 15:35-44 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Lee Merrill brings up a good point about God knowing beforehand that people "will still not repent" during the tribulation period. The way I understand that is in a broad brush stroke way. The same way God knows beforehand that some people will believe and that some will reject Him, He also knows that some will believe on Him during that tribulation time, and some will "still not repent" no matter what He does.
Enjoying the discussion,
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/3/2004 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bemabound,
quote:
Yes, to love God and enjoy companionship and partnership with Him forever is the chief purpose of man. But the song, "You made me love you.. I didn't want to do it - no, I didn't want to do it..." is not the song God wants to hear from us. That doesn't glorify Him. He wants more of a: "Lord, without coercing me, Your love has won my heart."
But again, don't we love God with love that comes from him?
1JN 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
I think we need love from God, before we can love God or anyone else. God wants us to choose to love him, but I think that happens as a result of conversion, and of receiving God's love, and not before.
quote:
I agree that people can make moral choices without being saved. But it's only because God is that one that built into them a conscience (so He gets the glory whether they're giving it to Him or not).
But then righteousness could have come through the law, could it not? And thus Christ died needlessly.
quote:
Lee Merrill brings up a good point about God knowing beforehand that people "will still not repent" during the tribulation period. The way I understand that is in a broad brush stroke way. The same way God knows beforehand that some people will believe and that some will reject Him, He also knows that some will believe on Him during that tribulation time, and some will "still not repent" no matter what He does.
How about this verse, then?
RO 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved.
If one person in this group does not believe, then that voids the prophecy...
Blessings,
Lee
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 5/7/2004 8:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
RO 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved.
If one person in this group does not believe, then that voids the prophecy...
Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 5/8/2004 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
I've been without internet access for a few days so I haven't responded to your comments - yet, it seems as though both you and "God Is Truth" have responded quite well to the "all Israel shall be saved" comment. Yes, I agree that this is presently an unfulfilled prophesy and will one day be fulfilled - for, as Jesus said, "...the Scripture cannot be broken." (John 10:35).
Also, your comment about us not being able to love without first being loved by God:
quote:
But again, don't we love God with love that comes from him?
1JN 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
I think we need love from God, before we can love God or anyone else. God wants us to choose to love him, but I think that happens as a result of conversion, and of receiving God's love, and not before.
I agree, and believe I had addressed that important fact when I wrote:
quote:
And how does one pass that test? How is one entrusted with His true riches? The authentic testing of our wills (our volitions) would look like this: God would train someone and love someone until that person is able to make a right, moral choice without any influence from Him. God, in a sense, backs off and says, “O.K., I’ve trained you and you’re able to choose the right way without any help from me. I’m watching to see what you will do with that wild will of yours.” That person will pass the test if he trusts God; willingly cleaves to Him and wisely stands on His Word – holding on to the promise of proven character which leads to a deeper companionship and partnership with Him. And those who truly trust God in those times of testing are qualifying themselves for those true riches. God can now trust that person and entrust to him/her His true riches – both now and in the Kingdom to come. God then can say, “Now I know that you fear God..." (Genesis 22:13. Remember, He’s raising up co-rulers for a Kingdom to come). Jesus said,
“A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.” (Luke 6:40)
I'm addressing the very purpose for which He created us, and redeemed us, and loved (and loves) us, and trains us. It's so that we can be like Him (not just in our new nature, but in character as well - which is developed in us as we go through the testing process) and so that we can be with Him (not just in the same place with Him - our eternal home in glory, but positioned with Him as co-rulers) as His eternal companions and partners in whom He can entrust His true riches.
One more thought: I assert that there is a certain quality of proven character that can be worked in us only on this side of glory. That's why Paul knew what it was to "fear the Lord" in light of the Judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:7-11). You see, all the trials and tribulations which we face in this life will be absent in the life to come. The flesh won't have these pulls (it'll be glorified), the world will be a beautiful place (no more lures and lies from this present wicked system) and the enemy will be bound (no more harrassment and lies to deal with). So, what's to overcome in the Kingdom to come? Nada! This is the day to overcome. This is the day to develop that character - to do the noble, courageous and loving thing - in the face of all the obstacles, all the evil that pulls on us and at us. We will not have another opportunity like we have here and now to do these noble, courageous acts of faith.
Picture two veterans looking back at those "glory days" when they fought in the foxhole together - watching out for each other - doing noble and courageous acts. Perhaps in the Kingdom to come we will look back at these days as the "glory days." If we diligently followed our Master, we will have joy looking back. Yet, there is that possibility for the Christian to waste his life here - to not see this as a "once in a lifetime" opportunity to develop the character of Jesus in us. We can have either boldness or shame when we see our Lord - and that's a fact (1 John 2:28). So - carpe diem.
In His grasp,
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Shep
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 6/30/2004 8:42 PM (GMT -6) | | I hope I am not disturbing a discussion here, but I didn't know quite where to post this.
I first looked in on this site about 2 years ago, curious about what “Open Theism” was all about. I had always considered God’s knowledge to be all-encompassing and his will to be unchanging – predestined even before the world began. I read the theory but dismissed the idea of a “God of the possible” on the grounds that things pre-destined could not live alongside other directions that were not yet decided since the outcome of those undecided acts could impact upon, and even prevent, the fulfilment of those events pre-destined. That could not be possible.
Since that time my prayer life became progressively more and more stale and narrow in its content. In trying to discover the meaning and mechanism of prayer it finally condensed into a little ball amounting basically to “Thy will be done” - and then sitting back and waiting to see what his will would be. Afterall, what else could there be to pray for other than God’s will to be done? By definition, his will is the best that could happen, and it was going to happen anyway regardless of my prayer – he wasn’t going to start moving against his own will just because of my prayer! But something was wrong here. I knew it, but couldn’t place it. Prayer could not be such a dull, lifeless act. The Bible shows people praying fervently to God for all kinds of things – what was I missing?
A little while back I was reading James and re-read one of my most important verses in the Bible:
“Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” Jam 2:15-17
That phrase: “if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” kept repeating itself in my head and wriggling around my conscience. Then I realised what I was hearing. In the same way that faith without deeds is dead so passive prayer without a readiness to participate in those petitions is also meaningless. It is pointless just asking for God’s will to happen without being ready to ask for one’s “orders” and to become part of the process itself. But then it went one stage further; if one should be ready to act out of love on God’s behalf in fulfilling his will then surely he, too, would surely be ready to act on our behalf in fulfilling our love towards each other.
If God wants to work through people (as he clearly does), then we need to be ready to participate. But we also have the choice whether to do so or not. But if God is prepared to wait on our own participation in order to fulfil his will, then he cannot predestine every single act beforehand – it is totally impossible unless he is also the complete master over our own will ( which I have never believed, nor would make any sense at all).
Thus, if I can affect the implementation of God’s will through my conceding to obey, the converse is that I also have the power to frustrate and delay his will by my refusal or apathy. The impact of this simple realisation was electric. Suddenly prayer became the most important and vital part of my being. Suddenly everything needed praying about. Despite the assurance of the final outcome, the thought that the entire interim progress of the war between good and evil might be flowing according to the volume and content of our combined prayer is stunning in its enormity.
Since this realisation I dusted off my copy of “God of the Possible” and have been reading it ever since, and it makes wonderful sense. I realise that God’s prophesies are what he is going to do regardless of the world and what we do here, and not just the inevitable predictable outcome of a preceding predetermined series of linked events.
Whether the open view is completely accurate or not, it certainly is scripturally justifiable – and once one adopts it as even remotely possible then its repercussions on the urgency and importance of prayer become so staggering that one cannot afford to leave it uninvestigated – at least, not without the risk that maybe prayer without action is also dead.
...and even if the open view is wrong, the only "harm" I can see is a more fervent, vibrant, and meaningful prayer life - I guess that's not too sinful?
Please forgive the naivity of my posting.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/30/2004 9:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome to the board, Shep! The thoughts you posted don't sound naive at all. I especially liked your description of how "thy will be done" seemed to stifle your prayer life in the past. Though I do think "thy will be done" encompasses many things God would like to see done but won't if we don't take action, I can certainly see how a completely settled future would lead one to the apathetic attitude it sounds like you came to. (Glad to hear you saw the light). 
Many of us here have found the Open View to be quite invigorating, challenging, and exciting in our spiritual lives.
Lee Merrill: "We love Him because he first loved us" doesn't imply divine manipulation of our love at all; the apostle is simply saying that our love RESPONDS to God's love, which is totally consistent with the Open View, and need not entail determinism, any more than "I love my dad because He first loved me," has to mean that my dad "MADE" me love him. Love works by persuasion, not coercion. When we catch just a glimpse of God's overwhelmingly wonderful love, it does evoke a response in us, but something called forth is not necessarily something forced upon us against our will.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/1/2004 1:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Shep
...and even if the open view is wrong, the only "harm" I can see is a more fervent, vibrant, and meaningful prayer life - I guess that's not too sinful?
selah:
Welcome Shep! All I can say to this is that I completely agree. Isn't it refreshing to think through implications ... I honestly wish everyone who assaults the OV would do the same. (perhaps you could teach a class? 
quote:
Please forgive the naivity of my posting.
selah:
I thought your post was mature, sincere, profound, lucid, accurate, actual, appropriate, authentic, bona fide, correct, direct, exact, factual, fitting, genuine, honest, kosher, lawful, legitimate, natural, normal, on target, perfect, precise, proper, pure, right, straight, suant, sure-enough, trustworthy, truthful, undeniable, undesigning, unerring, unfaked, unfeigned, valid,and veracious!
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/1/2004 2:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Newcomb
In once sense, this concept suggests that God’s real purpose is a test of wills.
I can see this as being the assumption from a hyper-calvinist perspective. But that is not the one I choose.
The organic development, maturation, and on this side of sin, healing are all more important. They involve the will. But the formation of saints -- those who love God with their whole heart, soul and strength -- is "what its all about. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/1/2004 3:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Then how can God know men's free-will choices in Revelation?
REV 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent...
Lee Merril
quote:
Lee Merrill brings up a good point about God knowing beforehand that people "will still not repent" during the tribulation period. The way I understand that is in a broad brush stroke way. The same way God knows beforehand that some people will believe and that some will reject Him, He also knows that some will believe on Him during that tribulation time, and some will "still not repent" no matter what He does. Bema Bound
Lee does bring up a good point although I am not in any way a Calvinist. Bema you suggest God doesn’t really know their choices in Rev 9 but he’s just talking in a general way that you feel God thinks that’s true in all cases that some believe and some don’t. There are examples however where all did believe in a judgement time and repented, as in the work of Jonah. It stated to the effect that the whole city did repent. I would submit that God did know the choices in the way and manner of which ive stated in other posts…..that first of all there is no such thing as being in the future to see it….for the future does not exist until it unfolds….but once it does unfold and becomes a reality, then there is something he can now do with that….he sends, blasts, connects a revelation back through time to connect to the beginning. Therefore he knows all things, but in no way shape or form does he make creatures do things the way he saw them do within the time line. If I could go back in time say 100 years and have a record of the things you did last month does that mean I myself am going to make you do them? No. It would just be a record of what I saw…nothing more, nothing less. 
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/1/2004 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1. the future doesn't exist
2. data about the future exists
Add to this 3. God is creator.
If God knows the exact outcome of what he creates, then he is responsible for that outcome. If he creates "free" creatures, knowing exactly what they will do, then their actions are really His actions. Example from real life: If I train my dog to kill anyone wearing orange clothes, I, not my dog, is responsible for killing if I let my dog be "free" in a prison. If we accept 1, 2, and 3, then God not only knows the dog will kill, He has purposefully made the dog that way.
If God just knew our future actions, there would be no problem. The problem comes when we realize that is the one who made us this way. The only way God could be holy is if He were not responsible for my sinful actions.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/1/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
1. the future doesn't exist
2. data about the future exists
Add to this 3. God is creator.
If God knows the exact outcome of what he creates, then he is responsible for that outcome. If he creates "free" creatures, knowing exactly what they will do, then their actions are really His actions. Example from real life: If I train my dog to kill anyone wearing orange clothes, I, not my dog, is responsible for killing if I let my dog be "free" in a prison. If we accept 1, 2, and 3, then God not only knows the dog will kill, He has purposefully made the dog that way.
If God just knew our future actions, there would be no problem. The problem comes when we realize that is the one who made us this way. The only way God could be holy is if He were not responsible for my sinful actions.
God creates us with a nature that is in his "image." Further, he creates us so that our nature is not determinative of all our actions (like, say, algae is). We were created with the potential of bearing the "likeness" of God. But as persons who are not determined by nature, we have choice. | | Back to Top | | |
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