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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
Where have all my fellow-Calvinist people gone? I feel like the only one with my finger in the dike...
quote:
Lee: But there is a range of meanings for the word "grieved" or "sorry." Thus to choose "grieved" instead of "sorry" is not explaining away, it's choosing one of a proper range of meanings.
Sahid: Fine, go with sorry. Now tell me why God would knowingly do something which has the net result of sorrow?
Well, I expect that the word doesn't have all possible meanings here. So we have to decide which one is most probable. Now if we know on other grounds that God cannot make mistakes, then we have to pick one of the other possible meanings here, instead of "sorry" as in "a mistake." "Grieved" here is not impossible, based on the context, it fits well, in fact. So I will choose that meaning. Now can God do something he knows will grieve him? Yes, I think that is possible, because of the good result that he sees:
ISA 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see and be satisfied...
quote:
Tom: We CAN hope in God and be disappointed. But we're not disappointed IN GOD. We are, as God is, disappointed that those who could have chosen to align themselves with God to achieve his purposes but who chose instead not to do so.
But Scripture says the opposite! It says if we hope in God, we will not be disappointed. And we can hope in God, and not just in the outcome:
PS 31:24 Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the Lord.
quote:
Chuck: We rely on His infinite knowledge of Possibilities and His back up plans for each possibility.
Yes, thanks, that is what I was asking. Now the OV says God can sometimes have a purpose that he does not accomplish, because of free will decisions going the wrong way. And there are not an infinite number of back up plans, thus they all can fail. That is what this thread is about, too, prophecies where it looks like God failed. OV says he did, and I insist that this implies that we cannot hope in God, in such instances. But Scripture says we can:
ISA 49:23 "Then you will know that I am the Lord; those who hope in me will not be disappointed."
quote:
Sisters: You, also, will not be disappointed in God UNLESS you want God to FORCE them into a relationship with Him AGAINT THEIR WILL, kind of like MORAL RAPE.
Well, again, a relationship that "comes with the baby" is not moral rape by definition. Parents have a relationship with their baby, and the baby didn't choose that.
quote:
Jesus presented the relationship between Himself and His church as that of a marriage relationship.
Yes, and he also started us out from the ground up, we didn't choose to create ourselves, and all we have comes from God. So this is different than two people meeting and marrying! God gave us life, as well as chose us to be his.
And we need more! Love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), we can't love on our own, until he loves us first:
1JN 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Dodging the issue as usual.
Lee, why are you disappointed with God when He doesn't force someone into His kingdom against their will?
God invites, they reject, God gives them what they want.
We are disappointed in them for rejecting God's gift.
We are not disappointed in God.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
And found, too! Like the lost coin or the lost sheep, none of these found themselves, God had to intervene, and find them. And he will!
LK 15:5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders...
Actually, the (lost) prodigal son came home of his own free will, "when he came to HIMSELF," and said, "I WILL arise and go to my father's house."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
And found, too! Like the lost coin or the lost sheep, none of these found themselves, God had to intervene, and find them. And he will!
LK 15:5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders...
Actually, the (lost) prodigal son came home of his own free will, "when he came to HIMSELF," and said, "I WILL arise and go to my father's house."
Yeah, I pointed that out to him as well numerous times.
The father NEVER WENT LOOKING for the prodigal son.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Well, I expect that the word doesn't have all possible meanings here. So we have to decide which one is most probable. Now if we know on other grounds that God cannot make mistakes, then we have to pick one of the other possible meanings here, instead of "sorry" as in "a mistake." "Grieved" here is not impossible, based on the context, it fits well, in fact. So I will choose that meaning. Now can God do something he knows will grieve him? Yes, I think that is possible, because of the good result that he sees:
I sort of agree with you. I just sort of think of God's decision to suffer grief differently. I think God knew before he started all this that creating people with free will would very likely bring grief. He chose to take the chance of dealing with grief, so that he could have friends who accepted him by choice rather than by compulsion. John 15: 1-17 illustrates this beautifully to me. Jesus initiated things. "You didn't choose Me, but I chose you." But we are allowed to respond. "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love." "This is my commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. You are my friends if you do what I command you." The choice to stay or abide in the love that Jesus has chosen to initiate is up to us. quote:
Yes, and he also started us out from the ground up, we didn't choose to create ourselves, and all we have comes from God. So this is different than two people meeting and marrying! God gave us life, as well as chose us to be his.
And we need more! Love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), we can't love on our own, until he loves us first:
1JN 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us...
Yes! This is not incompatable with open theism. It is instead basic to all Christianity. God loves us first and makes it possible for us to love. He doesn't make some love and make others hate. He makes both options possible by introducing love to us in the first place. I love the imphasis on God's initiating love that is found in Calvinism. What it lacks is a way for people to love God back. Unless God made us with it possible for us to make hateful choices, loving choices would be impossible.
God initiates. He stands at the door and knocks. He dies for us. He does everything short of grabbing us by the shoulders and shaking us until we agree to love him back, because that would not be love that we give him.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/6/2004 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi again, everyone,
quote:
Sisters: Lee, why are you disappointed with God when He doesn't force someone into His kingdom against their will?
I wouldn't state it that way, of course. But if God says he will save someone, I shall hope in him to do it! Without doing them an injustice, again, we don't choose all our relationships, like at work, you choose to work for Popper's Peanuts, but you don't choose all the people you work with! And people don't think it's an injustice that that's the situation, either. Especially if you find out some of the people you need to work with are actually quite friendly folks. God is! He's quite good, indeed...
And God does predict saving people!
AC 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
And Cornelius could take that to the bank, he could hope in God, that he would do just that.
quote:
John: Actually, the (lost) prodigal son came home of his own free will, "when he came to HIMSELF," and said, "I WILL arise and go to my father's house."
Sisters: The father NEVER WENT LOOKING for the prodigal son.
Yes, and the father says he was found! That's a paradox. Now we have to put them both together, and I think we can take a hint from the other parables in this set, the lost coin and the lost sheep didn't find their way back at all, they were found, and the son was said to be found, so I think we must conclude that the son's coming back was because the father was seeking him, even though it seems like he was just waiting. I think we must take the father's summary as being the essence of the situation, not the appearances.
quote:
Sahid: I think God knew before he started all this that creating people with free will would very likely bring grief. He chose to take the chance of dealing with grief, so that he could have friends who accepted him by choice rather than by compulsion. John 15: 1-17 illustrates this beautifully to me. Jesus initiated things. "You didn't choose Me, but I chose you." But we are allowed to respond. "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love."
I almost agree with you, too! Yes, God did know grief would come by his choice, and he chose that anyway. I don't think he was wondering at the start, though! And yes, Jesus chooses, and the disciples choose, too, and we have to take both these statements together. I think Jesus' statement gives the behind-the-scenes perspective, for he says "you did not choose me," knowing full well they thought they had. Thus we must take Jesus' statement as giving us the source of the disciples' choice.
quote:
Sahid: I love the emphasis on God's initiating love that is found in Calvinism. What it lacks is a way for people to love God back. Unless God made us with it possible for us to make hateful choices, loving choices would be impossible.
I believe that God's children can choose ways to love God! I just don't believe his children can choose to stop loving God, not altogether:
1JN 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
And I think the part that is forbidden, and impossible for a child of God to stay in, is finite, and the part that is free is infinite, like the garden, with the fence around the forbidden tree...
Thanks for the encouragement! I do need to emphasize love more, actually...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi again, everyone,
quote:
Sisters: Lee, why are you disappointed with God when He doesn't force someone into His kingdom against their will?
I wouldn't state it that way, of course. But if God says he will save someone, I shall hope in him to do it!
Even against their will? Rape.
Where does God say, in scripture, He will save someone against their will?
Romans 10:13 "for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.""
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
John: Actually, the (lost) prodigal son came home of his own free will, "when he came to HIMSELF," and said, "I WILL arise and go to my father's house."
Sisters: The father NEVER WENT LOOKING for the prodigal son.
Yes, and the father says he was found!
Yeah, the prodigal had found himself!
Luke 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!"
He found himself! No paradox!
Luke 15:18 "'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him."
verse 18 He made up his mind to go home! No paradox!
verse 20 He left for home on his own! No paradox!
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
And God does predict saving people!
AC 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
Acts 11:
11 "And behold, at that moment three men appeared at the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea."
They sought Peter first!
Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."
12 "The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man's house.
13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
They went looking for Peter, they sought God and He had an angel tell them to send for Peter. They were ready to be saved!
They sought God FIRST, and God rewarded them according to His promise "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." | | Back to Top | | |
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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 7/6/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Chuck: We rely on His infinite knowledge of Possibilities and His back up plans for each possibility.
Yes, thanks, that is what I was asking. Now the OV says God can sometimes have a purpose that he does not accomplish, because of free will decisions going the wrong way. And there are not an infinite number of back up plans, thus they all can fail. That is what this thread is about, too, prophecies where it looks like God failed. OV says he did, and I insist that this implies that we cannot hope in God, in such instances. But Scripture says we can:
Blessings,
Lee
Lee,
I think you are missing what the open view says. We are saying that God is infinitely resourceful in His response to free-will decisions. The possibilities are inifinite until God, of His own free-will (which Luther attributes He has!), decides to end time, and judge the living etc. We can hope in God because He will conquer evil, He will save us, and He can try to influence free-will decisions. He is so powerful that He doesn't need to control every detail of what happens to accomplish His purposes! Remember also that Open theists believe that God knows what He will do! We can trust HIm because He knows He will save us, HE knows He will conquer evil for these are thigns HE will do! He is just waiting for the right time to implement His unfailing plans, though He is always implementing responsive plans to human free-decisions!
What you are saying is that You (and fellow calvinists) are going to deny explicitly what scripture says about a few of His plans failing, so then God has been molded into your Greek/Augustinian/Calvinist view. This is just not a good way to interpret God's self disclosed revelation, in my opinion! Let's take it for what it means, and if their is a mystery because of it, then it requires greater Faith from us!
God Bless You,
Chuck
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/6/2004 8:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I almost agree with you, too! Yes, God did know grief would come by his choice, and he chose that anyway. I don't think he was wondering at the start, though! And yes, Jesus chooses, and the disciples choose, too, and we have to take both these statements together. I think Jesus' statement gives the behind-the-scenes perspective, for he says "you did not choose me," knowing full well they thought they had. Thus we must take Jesus' statement as giving us the source of the disciples' choice.
Lee,
The problem I have is mainly with foreknowledge I guess. God could have created things just a little differently and people would have made very different choices. Big things like the geography of the world, have led to people making choices based on where they lived. If God has the power to fine tune his creation so precisely that he can cause or prevent people from sinning, then he is in effect causing or preventing sin. But the Bible says that we are responsible for our own sin. I think this implies freedom on man's part (and I think you agree at least to some degree). But God was 100% certain that I would sin if he made things this way, and he did it anyway. From God's point of view, he caused the sin. God chose to make things in such a way that I was sure to sin. In this situation I am the victim, not the criminal. But God is just. There is no sin in Him. Look at all those Old Testament laws. When one person causes another to be hurt, the first person receives the blame. So if God put me in a situation where all I could do was sin, why does he allow me to suffer the consequences.
I have a similar problem with predestination. If God knew 100% when he created things that I would believe or not believe, was it really my choice? Wasn't the choice really God's? And if I didn't choose, how is that belief? How is it faith? It sounds more like brainwashing.
I think God initiates salvation by making it available. Then I think he waits to see what we will choose. He's a pretty smart guy, and he can see into our hearts, so I'm guessing he has a fairly good idea what we will choose, but he leaves it up to us. And if we respond in faith, he is faithful to fulfill his promises. I think this is where most of the notable predestination verses come in.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/7/2004 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: I wouldn't state it that way, of course. But if God says he will save someone, I shall hope in him to do it!
Sisters: Even against their will? Rape.
No, the primary metaphor for conversion is a new birth. And babies come with a built-in relationship with their parents, and that's not moral rape.
quote:
Where does God say, in scripture, He will save someone against their will?
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
quote:
Sisters: Yeah, the prodigal had found himself!
Luke 15:17 "But when he came to his senses...
But why did he come to his senses? He wasn't searching. I think it was the Father who was searching, that's why this happened.
Luke 15:24 ... for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.
quote:
Sisters: They went looking for Peter, they sought God and He had an angel tell them to send for Peter. They were ready to be saved!
They sought God FIRST, and God rewarded them...
No, an angel came first to Cornelius. And God predicted he and his household would be saved! And Cornelius could hope in God, that he would do just that...
quote:
Chuck: We are saying that God is infinitely resourceful in His response to free-will decisions.
But what about the prophecies that have a time limit on them? Such as the prophecy about raising up Cyrus?
quote:
We can hope in God because He will conquer evil, He will save us, and He can try to influence free-will decisions.
But if God is "trying" to influence our decisions, then we cannot hope in him, where his intentions involve our decisions, for then we might possibly be disappointed in God. But that's not Scriptural!
quote:
Sahid: ... the Bible says that we are responsible for our own sin. I think this implies freedom on man's part ...
Some freedom in the area of motive, I would say. People do with a bad motive, what God ordains they will do for a good purpose (Gen. 50:20).
quote:
God chose to make things in such a way that I was sure to sin. In this situation I am the victim, not the criminal.
God is the primary cause of sinful actions, without being the source of evil, just as you can control a water hose, and not be the source of the water. I disagree with the second statement, for example, if you hear of a calamity, and you rejoice in a bad way, then that is a sin, though you didn't cause that calamity. Similarly, if God ordains a sinful action, and those who carry it out have a bad motive, that bad motive means they are guilty, just as if that action had been somebody else's action, that they rejoiced in.
quote:
If God knew 100% when he created things that I would believe or not believe, was it really my choice?
No, it wasn't!
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
Just like we didn't choose being born. After that we start to choose, and more and more as we grow older, and can have more responsibility.
Luke 19:19 And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.'
quote:
And if we respond in faith, he is faithful to fulfill his promises. I think this is where most of the notable predestination verses come in.
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
Blessings,
Lee
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/7/2004 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Luke 15:17 "But when he came to his senses...
But why did he come to his senses? He wasn't searching. I think it was the Father who was searching, that's why this happened.
Luke 15:24 ... for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.
John E responds:
Funny, the Bible itself never says anything about the father searching for him while he was away. All it says is that the father saw his son coming from a distance, and ran to meet him.
quote:
Sisters: They went looking for Peter, they sought God and He had an angel tell them to send for Peter. They were ready to be saved!
They sought God FIRST, and God rewarded them...
Lee said:
No, an angel came first to Cornelius. And God predicted he and his household would be saved! And Cornelius could hope in God, that he would do just that...
John responds::
Actually, no, the angel came to Cornelius AFTER he had already been praying and giving alms--"Your prayers and alms have come up before God as a memorial."
Lee asks: But what about the prophecies that have a time limit on them? Such as the prophecy about raising up Cyrus?
John responds:
This has been answered many, many times here. The Open View affirms that God can unilaterally act in history to bring about his purposes.
God's unilateral causation of Cyrus' birth, naming, etc., does not involve a violation of morality.
quote:
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
John responds:
Let the reader please note the rest of the verse..."and ordained you, that you would go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain. Jesus is specifically addressing the apostles, and the object of his choosing in this verse has to do with their call into ministry. Even if this were speaking of election to salvation per se, it would not require us to believe in UNconditional election, for Christ himself said in another place, "Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
quote:
And if we respond in faith, he is faithful to fulfill his promises. I think this is where most of the notable predestination verses come in.
Lee said:
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
John responds:
The author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ, "the beginner and ender" of the Christian faith.
Even if we take the view of this that Lee does, it is still true that God has given to EVERY man the measure of faith, according to Romans 12:3. (If Lee can take verses out of context, I can too! ) 
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/7/2004 8:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does God say, in scripture, He will save someone against their will?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
I don't know how this verse says that the reconciliation and salvation are against the believer's wills. I think you have to bring that assumption with you when you read the verse if you are to see it here. quote:
Some freedom in the area of motive, I would say. People do with a bad motive, what God ordains they will do for a good purpose (Gen. 50:20).
The whole story of Joseph was not directed by his brothers. God intervened in the bad situation, and got it to work out for good. The verse doesn't say that God controlled Joseph's brothers. If you take it at face value, it says God was working for good motives, and the brothers were working for evil motives. The only way to get God ordaining sin out of it is to bring it with you when you read. It is a sticky verse, but I don't see it dealing with who God controlling the brother's wills. If anything the verse inplies that the brothers were not following God's will. That's another reason why God is to be praised. Not only does He have brute force; He also has precision skill. quote:
God is the primary cause of sinful actions, without being the source of evil, just as you can control a water hose, and not be the source of the water.
So you're saying God is the cause of sin but not the source? So it sounds like that implies that man has potential for sin and God causes that potential to be realized. Or maybe, man is the source, and God causes man to be that way. I don't see how God is innocent in either of these situations. I'm not saying this is your viewpoint, but how does this cause/source thing work out? quote:
disagree with the second statement, for example, if you hear of a calamity, and you rejoice in a bad way, then that is a sin, though you didn't cause that calamity.
But your sin, that you are responsible for, is not the original calamity; it's the sinful response. And the sinful response you did cause. quote:
Similarly, if God ordains a sinful action, and those who carry it out have a bad motive, that bad motive means they are guilty, just as if that action had been somebody else's action, that they rejoiced in.
But these situations are not similar. In the first you cause your own sin. In the second God causes it. quote:
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
Just like we didn't choose being born. After that we start to choose, and more and more as we grow older, and can have more responsibility.
I think this is talking about God initiating relationship, something that we didn't choose. Look at the two preceding verses. God doesn't want slaves; He wants friends. quote:
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
He is the author. Without His faith ours is meaningless. The word author in this case also implies leader. My Greek is horribly rusty, but I'll see what I can find in my lexicon.
I've noticed things have started sounding a little angry. Not anyone specific, just a feeling I have. Misuderstanding is easy when we can't see the faces the words belong to. I just want everyone to know that I love this stuff. I love to have my beliefs tested. I think this is part of what the iron sharping iron stuff is about.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/8/2004 2:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
No, the primary metaphor for conversion is a new birth. And babies come with a built-in relationship with their parents, and that's not moral rape.
So I won't see you at the Marriage of the Lamb and His Church?
Isaiah 54:5-6---"For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, who is called the God of all the earth. For the LORD has called you, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even like a wife of one's youth when she is rejected," says your God.
Hosea 2:19--- "And I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, in loving-kindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD."
Mark 2:19-20---And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bride do not fast, do they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day."
Eph. 5:23---For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
2 Cor. 11:2 --- For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
Rev. 19:7-9--- "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. And he said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
 You'll be wandering around looking for the Bri of the Lamb?
And if the Lamb got His bride by violating wills and forcing them into the marriage relationship, it's slavery AND rape.
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/8/2004 3:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 9:20 "And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak;
21 for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."
22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well."
The woman reached out to Jesus first, only THEN did Jesus heal her and attribute it to her faith. Her faith on display in verse 21, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/8/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 8:
5 "And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
7 Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel."
He marvelled at the centurion's faith?
He had not found such great faith with anyone in Israel?
If Jesus gives the faith:
1. Why did He give the centurion a faith greater than others?
2. Why would Jesus marvel at the great faith He gave the centurion? vanity?
Marvel : [verb] be amazed at
[verb] express astonishment or surprise about something
Jesus was surprised about something He'd already given?
3. Why did Jesus say He "found" this faith? Had He lost it somewhere along the way? He doesn't remember to whom He's given faith and what quantity He's given each?
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/8/2004 4:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Lee said:
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
John responds:
The author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ, "the beginner and ender" of the Christian faith.
Even if we take the view of this that Lee does, it is still true that God has given to EVERY man the measure of faith, according to Romans 12:3. (If Lee can take verses out of context, I can too! )
If God authors our faith....
Hebrews 12:15 "See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled"
...why are we told to "see to it that no one comes short of the grace of God"????
How are we to make sure all reach the grace of God if it's all God's work? Some schizophrenia going on here.
Good point. What I was trying to say is that "our faith" in the passage Lee quoted seems to refer in this instance to our faith as in "The Christian faith," (as opposed to, say, "the Islamic faith," or "the Jewish faith.") In other words, it is saying that Jesus Christ is the author of our religion.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/8/2004 4:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Lee said:
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
John responds:
The author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ, "the beginner and ender" of the Christian faith.
Even if we take the view of this that Lee does, it is still true that God has given to EVERY man the measure of faith, according to Romans 12:3. (If Lee can take verses out of context, I can too! )
If God authors our faith....
Hebrews 12:15 "See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled"
...why are we told to "see to it that no one comes short of the grace of God"????
How are we to make sure all reach the grace of God if it's all God's work? Some schizophrenia going on here.
Good point. What I was trying to say is that "our faith" in the passage Lee quoted seems to refer in this instance to our faith as in "The Christian faith," (as opposed to, say, "the Islamic faith," or "the Jewish faith.") In other words, it is saying that Jesus Christ is the author of our religion.
Good point. I should have left your name out of the quote, I was responding to the islamic/calvinist/determinist...
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/8/2004 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | faith - emunah
Take the time to re-examine the modern concept of faith in light of the Hebrew context of the words use in the Old Testament. Most likely it was understood in this way by Paul's contemporaries. It won't take long to read and could give a quiet confidence.
http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/teaching/Article-17.html
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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