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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/8/2004 4:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
Lots to respond to! And it's getting late...
quote:
John: Funny, the Bible itself never says anything about the father searching for him while he was away. All it says is that the father saw his son coming from a distance, and ran to meet him.
But it does say he was "found." Which certainly implies a search.
quote:
John: the angel came to Cornelius AFTER he had already been praying and giving alms...
I agree, I was just trying to state that this angel before Cornelius sent the messengers. And to insist that God said he and his household would be saved, and that Cornelius could hope in God, that he would do that.
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John: The Open View affirms that God can unilaterally act in history to bring about his purposes.
I know! The proposal I was addressing was based on an infinite number of possibilities, which seems to be saying that God does not need to override human choices.
quote:
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
John: Jesus is specifically addressing the apostles, and the object of his choosing in this verse has to do with their call into ministry.
That doesn't fit with "you did not choose me," though. "Choose Jesus for ministry" won't do here.
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Sahid: I think this is talking about God initiating relationship, something that we didn't choose. Look at the two preceding verses. God doesn't want slaves; He wants friends.
Yes, God initiates the relationship, like with a baby being born. Then as people grow and develop, the relationship develops, and more responsibility and freedom is given, and then we are his friends. So I agree!
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John: Even if this were speaking of election to salvation per se, it would not require us to believe in UNconditional election, for Christ himself said in another place, "Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Yes, but this choice is not a choice like the choice in John 15:16. "Chosen you twelve" certainly refers to simply choosing those he called "the twelve," his choice of who was to be in that group, not who would be saved. And Jesus knew Judas would turn away from the beginning, when he made his choice for him to be an apostle (Jn. 6:64).
quote:
Lee said:
But God causes our faith! He is the author of it (Heb. 12:2).
John responds:
The author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ, "the beginner and ender" of the Christian faith.
The perfecter of the Christian faith? The ender of the Christian faith? What can this mean, is the Christian faith defective, or will it change somehow?
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John: Even if we take the view of this that Lee does, it is still true that God has given to EVERY man the measure of faith, according to Romans 12:3.
"Every Christian" is meant here, certainly. I think you meant this tongue-in-cheek.
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Swanlake: ...why are we told to "see to it that no one comes short of the grace of God"????
John: How are we to make sure all reach the grace of God if it's all God's work?
I hold that believers can choose, and thus miss out. But I think this does not show that God is not the author of our faith, this is a different subject.
quote:
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him...
Sahid: I don't know how this verse says that the reconciliation and salvation are against the believer's wills.
That implication is there, though, if we were reconciled "when we were enemies," "by the death of his Son," and not by our own choice.
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Sahid: If anything the verse implies that [Joseph's] brothers were not following God's will.
But it's "You meant it ... God meant it," the deed was intended by both, the brothers had a bad purpose, and God had a good one.
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Sahid: So you're saying God is the cause of sin but not the source? So it sounds like that implies that man has potential for sin and God causes that potential to be realized.
No, God is the cause of sinful actions, but not the source of sin. To say that God is the cause of sin does imply that he is the source of sin, but you can turn on the water hose, and not be the cause of the water itself, nor the source of it. You cause the water to flow, but you don't cause the water.
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Lee: if you hear of a calamity, and you rejoice in a bad way, then that is a sin, though you didn't cause that calamity.
Sahid: But your sin, that you are responsible for, is not the original calamity; it's the sinful response. And the sinful response you did cause.
I agree! That is my view here.
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Lee: Similarly, if God ordains a sinful action, and those who carry it out have a bad motive, that bad motive means they are guilty, just as if that action had been somebody else's action, that they rejoiced in.
Sahid: But these situations are not similar. In the first you cause your own sin. In the second God causes it.
But they are similar! God causes the action, but the motive comes from the person, and that is where they are responsible, and therefore guilty of sin. We recognize this principle if someone rejoices in someone else's sinful action, that they did not cause, thus it applies to their own actions, too.
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Lee: No, the primary metaphor for conversion is a new birth. And babies come with a built-in relationship with their parents...
Sisters: So I won't see you at the Marriage of the Lamb and His Church?
That's after growing and maturing, though. Like what I said above to Sahid, about becoming friends after some time.
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Sisters: And if the Lamb got His bride by violating wills and forcing them into the marriage relationship, it's slavery AND rape.
But if love has to be free in order to be love, then how about people in heaven? Can they choose not to love, and fall away, forever? Even Hollywood has this idea of "falling in love," "a match made in heaven," "they were meant for each other." But that's not slavery and rape.
PR 30:18-19 "There are three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a maiden."
You all may be able to teach this writer of Scripture a thing or two! I don't think so, though...
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Swanlake: The woman [in Mt. 9:20] reached out to Jesus first, only THEN did Jesus heal her and attribute it to her faith. Her faith on display in verse 21, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."
Yes, but that's not the end of the chain! Not if God is the author of our faith. As Sahid noted, this can mean "leader," but most translations pick "author," and I have other verses too:
AC 18:27 ... those who by grace had believed.
Not by their choice, their faith was "by grace."
AC 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
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Swanlake: If Jesus gives the faith:
1. Why did He give the centurion a faith greater than others?
2. Why would Jesus marvel at the great faith He gave the centurion?
3. Why did Jesus say He "found" this faith?
1. God does give people different measures of faith! (Rom. 12:3) I can't tell you why in every instance, though.
2. and 3. Because Jesus didn't have direct access to all knowledge while he was on earth, I believe.
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Swanlake: If the "it" is faith [in Eph. 2:8], then grace isn't a gift.
They're both a gift!
1CO 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit...
I asked a Greek-person, and he said "it" can be "grace and faith and saved" here.
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Swanlake: Luke 18:8 "...However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
He was asking them, though! He wasn't asking himself. Like this question:
JN 6:5-6 "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.
And it got later than when I started, somehow. Nite all...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Armchair Theologian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/9/2004 2:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Armchair Theologian
quote:
Lee: Similarly, if God ordains a sinful action, and those who carry it out have a bad motive, that bad motive means they are guilty, just as if that action had been somebody else's action, that they rejoiced in.
God ordains evil? Where the hell did you get that horrible idea?
Oh, I see.
Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.
23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?"
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.
28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."
"The LORD said to her,
'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body'" | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/9/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yes, God initiates the relationship, like with a baby being born. Then as people grow and develop, the relationship develops, and more responsibility and freedom is given, and then we are his friends. So I agree!
If freedom is given, it is the freedom to chose between options. What is freedom otherwise? But if God knows what we will chose and God can't be wrong, then there are no other possible options. I may seem like there are, but God knows there aren't. quote:
That implication is there, though, if we were reconciled "when we were enemies," "by the death of his Son," and not by our own choice.
For an example of an enemy being reconciled through the mutual choice of both parties, watch Hunt for Red October. Enemies being reconciled does not imply coersion. quote:
But it's "You meant it ... God meant it," the deed was intended by both, the brothers had a bad purpose, and God had a good one.
It is my opinion that neither the brothers nor God intended the entire story. They each caused parts of "it". quote:
No, God is the cause of sinful actions, but not the source of sin. To say that God is the cause of sin does imply that he is the source of sin, but you can turn on the water hose, and not be the cause of the water itself, nor the source of it. You cause the water to flow, but you don't cause the water.
If water represents sin, then releasing water from a hose is still bad.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/9/2004 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
quote:
Swanlake: If Jesus gives the faith:
1. Why did He give the centurion a faith greater than others?
2. Why would Jesus marvel at the great faith He gave the centurion?
3. Why did Jesus say He "found" this faith?
1. God does give people different measures of faith! (Rom. 12:3) I can't tell you why in every instance, though.
2. and 3. Because Jesus didn't have direct access to all knowledge while he was on earth, I believe.
Hello Lee,
Is your mentality of possessing more knowledge then Jesus the foundation of your entire un-orthodox theology?
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/9/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
AT: God ordains evil? ... Oh, I see.
Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."
To make your point here, you have to have the Pharisees thinking that casting out demons was evil. Or someone. Do you think that?
quote:
Sahid: What is freedom otherwise? But if God knows what we will chose and God can't be wrong, then there are no other possible options. I may seem like there are, but God knows there aren't.
I did address this in another thread, when (I think) you raised this question there. So doesn't this imply that God cannot know any of his decisions in advance? That they have to all be spur-of-the-moment decisions, even according to the OV?
quote:
Sahid: For an example of an enemy being reconciled through the mutual choice of both parties, watch Hunt for Red October. Enemies being reconciled does not imply coersion.
"Reconciled" is passive, though (in Rom. 5:10), and thus not mutual agreement. And "when we were enemies" makes it the opposite of our will here, like with Paul.
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Sahid: It is my opinion that neither the brothers nor God intended the entire story. They each caused parts of "it".
Dr. Piper! Paging Dr. Piper!
"The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)
There is only one "it" in view in this verse here, not parts, but just one item, which the brothers meant, and God meant, too, for a different reason...
quote:
Lee: To say that God is the cause of sin does imply that he is the source of sin, but you can turn on the water hose, and not be the cause of the water itself, nor the source of it. You cause the water to flow, but you don't cause the water.
Sahid: If water represents sin, then releasing water from a hose is still bad.
Not if it results in good! As in the cross...
Acts 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
quote:
Lee: Jesus didn't have direct access to all knowledge while he was on earth, I believe.
Mark: Is your mentality of possessing more knowledge than Jesus the foundation of your entire un-orthodox theology?
I know a lot less than Jesus did, while he was on earth! "All I know is what I read in the newspaper" (Will Rogers). The "Good News" paper...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
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