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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/4/2004 7:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | John :
Okay, it's like this: Say one of us is killed in a terrorist bombing. For the true Christian, God works through, in and with even such a horrendous tragedy and injustice as this is for our good. This life is but a vapor, anyway, and you would instantly be with Him in heaven--it can't get any better (good) than that.
Lee says:
That's one example! That's good. Now every example is not like that, according to the warfare worldview. Not even this example, how about the people left behind? Maybe some wounded believers. Maybe a wife and some children. The point of this worldview is that the terrorists can do real damage, as part of the battle...
John replies:
It is not clear to me why the Open View's approach to this aspect of the problem of evil would be ANY different at all than Calvinism. The Calvinist (I think) would say, "We don't understand why these things happen, we just have to trust that God is good and will see us through this trial." Are you implying that a terrorist CAN'T do "real damage" to a person holding a Calvinist worldview?
Lee said:
Now this is a step back from Rom. 8:28. God is now "working to bring good out of the evil," implying he is making an attempt, implying he may not always be successful.
John responds:
I think you're reading into GB's comments more than is actually there. It is not clear to me how GB is minimizing the import of Rom. 8:28 at all. What GB is saying is that in our subjective understanding, we trust God is working all things together for our good. How this differs from even the most hyper-Calvinistic view is not clear to me. Trust in God consists of precisely what Dr. Boyd is saying.
Lee said:
Dr. Boyd just visited this thread! Maybe he didn't read my post, though, or have time to correct me. I do think he made a careful statement in the quote above, though, so as not to say that God will always bring good out of evil. That's not part of the warfare worldview, from this quote, or from how people have explained it to me here.
John:
I honestly don't know where you would get the idea from Open Theism that God doesn't work all things for the good of those who love Him. As far as I am aware (and I've been studying Open Theism for over five years, and Arminianism and Calvinism for 15 years prior to that), no Open Theist book ever denies that "God works all things together for good to those who love God."
Lee said:
"Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil." (Greg Boyd)
And this is a step back even further, thus believers must simply put up with evil too, sometimes...
John responds:
You have once again switched horses midstream, Lee. The Boyd quote you reference above clearly states the subject of the sentence is not "believers" but GOD.
Lee says:
How is it that believers need not tolerate evil, though, if God must do so?
John replies:
God tolerates moral evil to some extent in EVERY theological position available.
John replies:
The context of 2 Th. 2:11 makes it clear that this powerful delusion was sent BECAUSE they did not receive the love of the truth...
2TH 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Lee: God's choice comes first, when people believe the truth, and receive love of the truth, and are sanctified by the Spirit, so they do not find pleasure in wickedness.
John replies:
Did not God choose Israel too? And yet Israel has in large part been hardened due to their unbelief (Rom. 9). Yes God's choice comes first, and his choice is that (as I'm sure you will agree) ALL will be saved. Therefore, your particularistic reading of this verse does not follow from either my premises or yours.
Lee says:
God's choice of Israel was to show mercy to some and harden others, though:
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened...
John replies:
The context of Romans 9 through 11 reveals WHY Israel was hardened--because of their own unbelief, not any kind of arbitrariness in God.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/5/2004 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Concerning this term God hardening this person or that here's what I would suggest this means. God did not harden people in the way that some people think. I believe we are stumbling at the way the King James states things in this sense....We say we harden people ourselves but we don't use those terms....we state we make them mad. Lets say for example, I am an employer and I have an employee who needs to be diciplined. I may know that other indivdual is an obstenate individual full of pride, somewhat like Pharoah was in Eygpt. I may say to another Im going to say this to them and say that to them, and I know its going to make them mad [or harden their hearts] but that's just tough! Certain things need now to be said!" Well did I harden their hearts? No, not in the most real sense. They
mad a decision to get mad or get offended. Im the boss and I have a right to run the company the way I see fit. Now with God hardening Israels heart, what does it all mean? Basically this God had the right to set up the way of salvation anyway he saw fit, and that was through Jesus dying on the cross. If some people don't like that and it makes them mad [hardenes their heart] then tough! Its God universe and he can bring salvation anyway he sees fit. He is the potter and the universe is his not ours. This doesn't mean though that God 'in the truest sense' hardened their hearts. They choose to become mad and that never was Gods will to be the case. He desired all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jo-Anne (I'm fond of my SBC roots)
I'm a lamb that strayed from the SBC fold, too. Now I'm in a Vineyard charismatic church, and I heard a lady once quote her parents, after they visited, saying, "That was great. Now can we go to church?"
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Are you implying that a terrorist CAN'T do "real damage" to a person holding a Calvinist worldview?
Yes, yes! To a believer, and not just a Calvinist, anyone who loves God, who was called by him. I mean to do more than just imply this! I shall read you some quotes from my favorite quote book:
"I grant, indeed, we cannot give thanks for affliction as affliction, but either as it is the means of some good to us, or as the gracious hand of God is some way remarkable therein toward us. In this respect there is no condition on this side of hell but we have reason to praise God in it, though it be the greatest of calamities. Hence it was that David, when he speaks of his affliction, adds presently, 'Thou art good, and doest good' (Ps. 119:68)" (John Willison)
"Happy is he who has learned to look beyond the actions of men to the power that controls them all, and to receive all--favor or persecution, aid or hindrance, from the Lord. That soul has acquired the secret of perfect peace amid the confusion and turmoil of the world, as well as in the presence of Satan's power." (Edward Dennett)
"Is it not well worth having, to have this settled conviction of your hearts, that Christ is moving through all the impulses of your life, and that nothing falls out without the intervention of His presence and the power of His will working through it? Do you not think that such belief would gird you up for difficulty, and would lift you buoyantly over trials and depressions, and would see you upon a vantage ground high above all the petty annoyances of life?"
"Tell me, is there any other place a Christian can plant his foot and say, 'Now I am on a rock and I care not what comes!'" (Alexander Maclaren)
I shall restrain myself, and stop there. There's good news here...
quote:
John:
I honestly don't know where you would get the idea from Open Theism that God doesn't work all things for the good of those who love Him. As far as I am aware (and I've been studying Open Theism for over five years, and Arminianism and Calvinism for 15 years prior to that), no Open Theist book ever denies that "God works all things together for good to those who love God."
I think it's a plain implication from the warfare worldview. Nobody denies this outright, that would be a Bad Idea, but they do imply that.
quote:
Lee says:
How is it that believers need not tolerate evil, though, if God must do so?
John replies:
God tolerates moral evil to some extent in EVERY theological position available.
Not in the way Dr. Boyd means that, I think! "'Gratuitous suffering', 'meaningless tragedy'", these are phrases (they are in quotes) from a review of "Is God to Blame?" Maybe these aren't quotes from the book, but I think the warfare view does include these phrases, as they are stated, and thus contradict Rom. 8:28, for believers.
quote:
John replies: The context of Romans 9 through 11 reveals WHY Israel was hardened--because of their own unbelief, not any kind of arbitrariness in God.
Actually, the reason Israel was hardened is not because of their unbelief:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
And then we have a question:
RO 9:19 "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
But that's another subject!
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bobber,
quote:
... with God hardening Israels heart, what does it all mean? Basically this God had the right to set up the way of salvation anyway he saw fit, and that was through Jesus dying on the cross. If some people don't like that and it makes them mad [hardens their heart] then tough!
But the primary example of hardening is Pharaoh, long before the gospel. And God wasn't explaining his ways to Pharaoh! He was commanding Pharaoh, and also hardening his heart, so Pharaoh would refuse.
Thus God did two things, he told Pharaoh to let the people God, and he hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would refuse. Now Pharaoh hardened his heart, too! To that extent he was guilty. But God also hardened Pharaoh's heart as well. God didn't say "Tell Pharaoh to let them go, and this will harden Pharaoh's heart..."
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Long before God chazaq* Pharoah's heart, we see this:
Exodus 1:
7 But the sons of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly, and multiplied, and became exceedingly mighty, so that the land was filled with them.
8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. <-------
9 He said to his people, "Behold, the people of the sons of Israel are more and mightier than we.
10 "Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land."
11 So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses.
12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel.
13 The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously;
14 and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them.
15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah;
16 and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live."
The new king didn't know Joseph, was worried at how the sons of Israel were increasing and took the steps to enslave them. This was the new Pharoah's choice and actions.
Later, to sink a deep foundation in the sons of Israel that He was their God by using miracles to bring them out of captivity, God "encouraged" Pharoah in his defiance.
It was definitely Pharoah's resistance to God's efforts that emboldened Pharoah's heart.
*see Joshua 11:20, where God chazaq Joshua's soldiers' hearts to keep fighting, i.e. "encouraged" them in the battle.
The only other reference outside Exodus to "chazaq heart" is Ezekiah 2:
3 "Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.
4 "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
5 "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them."
The "chazaq heart" shows their choice to rebellion.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 6:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
Later, to sink a deep foundation in the sons of Israel that He was their God by using miracles to bring them out of captivity, God "encouraged" Pharoah in his defiance.
It was definitely Pharoah's resistance to God's efforts that emboldened Pharoah's heart.
I think you're trying to have it both ways! By saying God did this, but it was definitely Pharaoh who did this. I think it was both, and not just one or the other.
quote:
4 "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
5 "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them."
The "chazaq heart" shows their choice to rebellion.
This doesn't say why they were stubborn, and chose to rebel, though. Yes, they did choose, but the chain doesn't end there!
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Blessings,
Lee
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/5/2004 12:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This doesn't say why they were stubborn, and chose to rebel, though. Yes, they did choose, but the chain doesn't end there!
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Hi Lee...but I would say you just can't take that verse on its own. It must be balenced out with the principals God has set forth. For example the scripture states blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy....folks like Pharoah etc, were far from merciful....killed young baby children of the Hebrews.....and God has mercy on those who respond to the way that he has chosen to save people...by Christ....yes God shows mercy to whom he will but his will is to show mercy to those who approch salvation his way....
if what he says about the gospel makes some people mad, then yes, if God makes them mad by telling them salvation is only found in Jesus for them...and if that makes them mad that's tough...its his universe and he can save people in the way and manner he has choose ....through Christ.....that's really what Romans was all about...Gods way and method of saving people...not through the law but by grace.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/5/2004 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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4 "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
5 "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them."
The "chazaq heart" shows their choice to rebellion.
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This doesn't say why they were stubborn, and chose to rebel, though. Yes, they did choose, but the chain doesn't end there!
I don't think this passage deals with the issue. They are stubborn and rebelious. It doesn't say how they got that way. quote:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Bobber, I'm happy to agree with you on something. God does choose how he treats us, but he chooses based on our choices. He doesn't harden soft, loving hearts; he loves them back.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/5/2004 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
I think you're trying to have it both ways!
I'm only having it ONE way. Pharoah determined to enslave the Israelites long before Moses was sent to free them:
Exodus 1:
7 But the sons of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly, and multiplied, and became exceedingly mighty, so that the land was filled with them.
8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. <-------
9 He said to his people, "Behold, the people of the sons of Israel are more and mightier than we.
10 "Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land."
11 So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses.
12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel.
13 The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously;
14 and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them.
15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah;
16 and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live."
Moses hadn't even been born yet!
Enslave the Israelites? Pharoah's idea.
Pharoah's continued resistance to God's plagues hardened Pharoah's heart. God knew he'd be very resisant, "watch Me encourage him in his resistance by continued plagues".
Like a farm yard cat playing with a mouse, the mouse gets more and more frustrated.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Bobber: I would say you just can't take that verse on its own. It must be balanced out with the principals God has set forth. For example the scripture states blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy....folks like Pharaoh etc, were far from merciful...
Then this verse doesn't mean what it says! We should read "God has mercy on those who deserve mercy, and he hardens those who deserve hardening." And then Paul had no reason to raise the question he mentions in the next verse:
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
We should reply, "That's not the point! The point is that God responds to people, not that no one resists God's will." But Paul's point is just the opposite.
quote:
Sahid: He doesn't harden soft, loving hearts; he loves them back.
This assumes people can love on their own, though. But that's not true!
1JN 4:7 ... love comes from God.
If someone is loving, then God gave them that love, thus he is already showing them mercy, and not hardening them.
quote:
Sisters: Pharoah determined to enslave the Israelites long before Moses was sent to free them...
But God was at work before this occurred:
EX 9:16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
God made Pharaoh the ruler for this very purpose, and acted before Pharaoh starting making these bad decisions.
Blessings,
Lee
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Are you implying that a terrorist CAN'T do "real damage" to a person holding a Calvinist worldview?
Yes, yes! To a believer, and not just a Calvinist, anyone who loves God, who was called by him. I mean to do more than just imply this! I shall read you some quotes from my favorite quote book:
John responds:
By "real damage" I'm referring to death, torture, etc. Surely you don't believe that a terrorist can't harm anyone who loves God in such a way. What of the early Christian martyrs? What of the apostles, most of whom were martyred? THAT'S the kind of evil that the devil (and other evil persons) can do to people even if they love God.
As for your deterministic view that God "controls" the actions of evil people, such as say, Adolf Hitler, what a wonderfully loving and internally consistent God that would be who both condemns evil and CAUSES IT!!!
quote:
John:
I honestly don't know where you would get the idea from Open Theism that God doesn't work all things for the good of those who love Him. As far as I am aware (and I've been studying Open Theism for over five years, and Arminianism and Calvinism for 15 years prior to that), no Open Theist book ever denies that "God works all things together for good to those who love God."
I think it's a plain implication from the warfare worldview. Nobody denies this outright, that would be a Bad Idea, but they do imply that.
John responds:
I think it is simply YOU who are INFERRING something that's simply not there, Lee.
quote:
Lee says:
How is it that believers need not tolerate evil, though, if God must do so?
John replies:
God tolerates moral evil to some extent in EVERY theological position available.
Lee says:
Not in the way Dr. Boyd means that, I think! "'Gratuitous suffering', 'meaningless tragedy'", these are phrases (they are in quotes) from a review of "Is God to Blame?" Maybe these aren't quotes from the book, but I think the warfare view does include these phrases, as they are stated, and thus contradict Rom. 8:28, for believers.
John says:
So we see that you base your remarks on Open Theism on a book review. Nice.
Anyway, gratuitous evil is a different issue (and don't say it isn't, okay? Please give us the right to express our own view, free of your jaundiced prejudgments of it. Thanks). Gratuitous evil, in Dr. Boyd's works, simply says that the idea that "Everything happens for a DIVINE reason" is simply not true to Scripture, Reason, or Experience. But that does not by any means say that God is unable or unwilling to bring triumph out of such meaningless suffering. "Time and chance happen to all."
Eccl 9:11 ¶ I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all. NASB
quote:
John replies: The context of Romans 9 through 11 reveals WHY Israel was hardened--because of their own unbelief, not any kind of arbitrariness in God.
Lee said:
Actually, the reason Israel was hardened is not because of their unbelief:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
John replies:
The determinist reading of Romans 9 is not the only interpretation of the passage. I realize you don't see this as a possibility, but nevertheless, for those who may actually be interested in hearing another point of view, it is simply not the case that Romans 9 indicates, as you imply, arbitrariness in God's hardening of some and having mercy on some. Precisely the opposite is true, God wills to harden those who first harden their OWN hearts against Him. This understanding has the support of all the early church fathers prior to Augustine, and all Arminian theologians since the Reformation.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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Sahid: He doesn't harden soft, loving hearts; he loves them back.
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This assumes people can love on their own, though. But that's not true!
1JN 4:7 ... love comes from God.
If someone is loving, then God gave them that love, thus he is already showing them mercy, and not hardening them.
No, it doesn't assume people can love God on their own. It assumes that God loves us all, and as a result of God introducing love, people can love.
About Romans 9, take it in context. It's not talking about indiviuals. The issue Paul is dealing with from chapters 9-11 is how the Jews seem to be left out of God's plan. I don't think we can reasonably take this to be a statement about indiviuals. It's not dealing with the elect who are saved individually, but it is dealing with the elect who make God known as a nation. Check out verse 6. There are two Israels. The nation and the believers. Children of the flesh and children of the promise. This chapter deals primarily with the former.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
God made Pharaoh the ruler for this very purpose, and acted before Pharaoh starting making these bad decisions.
Wrong
Exodus 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."
Pharoah's pappy made Pharoah Pharoah, long before Moses was even born. God only allowed Pharoah to remain in power.
He encouraged (chazaq) his heart as He would later encourage (chazaq) the hearts of Joshua's soldiers in their battle.
Exodus 1:8 "Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph."
...and if he didn't know Joseph, he didn't know Joseph's God.
Long before Moses was born, Pharoah had enslaved the sons of Israel due to fear at their increasing numbers.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 1:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
About Romans 9, take it in context. It's not talking about indiviuals. The issue Paul is dealing with from chapters 9-11 is how the Jews seem to be left out of God's plan. I don't think we can reasonably take this to be a statement about indiviuals. It's not dealing with the elect who are saved individually, but it is dealing with the elect who make God known as a nation. Check out verse 6. There are two Israels. The nation and the believers. Children of the flesh and children of the promise. This chapter deals primarily with the former.[/font=Book Antiqua]
Yep. Romans 9 is about the nation of Israel. Romans 10 is about us Gentiles:
Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/6/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
John: Are you implying that a terrorist CAN'T do "real damage" to a person holding a Calvinist worldview?
Lee: Yes...
John responds:
By "real damage" I'm referring to death, torture, etc. Surely you don't believe that a terrorist can't harm anyone who loves God in such a way.
I do believe that! They can hurt them, but they can't harm them:
LK 21:16-17 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. men will hate you because of me.
That's very bad!
LK 21:18-19 But not a hair of your head will perish. By standing firm you will gain life.
The devil can't even pluck out one hair, if we stand with Christ, even if he puts us to death or tortures us.
REV 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer.
quote:
As for your deterministic view that God "controls" the actions of evil people, such as say, Adolf Hitler, what a wonderfully loving and internally consistent God that would be who both condemns evil and CAUSES IT!!!
Corrie ten Boom came out of the Nazi concentration camp "purified," she said. And she had a world-wide ministry, telling people "There is no pit so deep that God is not deeper still." And people believed her! And what she said is true. Now if that evil had not happened, the good wouldn't have happened either.
REV 5:12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Without Christ suffering, and God bringing that about, this praise would be impossible.
quote:
John: ...no Open Theist book ever denies that "God works all things together for good to those who love God."
Lee: I think it's a plain implication from the warfare worldview...
John responds:
I think it is simply YOU who are INFERRING something that's simply not there, Lee.
This is very plain, John, if some suffering is meaningless (that's in the warfare view, very clearly), then not all works out for good.
quote:
John says: ... gratuitous evil is a different issue (and don't say it isn't, okay?)
Well, I am sorry, but it isn't, that is the actual point I'm making.
quote:
... that does not by any means say that God is unable or unwilling to bring triumph out of such meaningless suffering. "Time and chance happen to all."
I think the warfare worldview says very clearly that God risks suffering that is not good, though, that there is a sense in which God is unable to bring good out of all suffering:
"I believe that it is NO coincidence that John Sanders brings up the tragedy of his brother's death in 'The God Who Risks'." (Mephi2K)
"I think 'radical faith' in God’s goodness should lead us to say only that he was involved in working to minimize the evil he couldn’t prevent." (Greg Boyd)
(this last quote is from www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1484)
Now I want to be sensitive here, because in times of tragedy it can be very difficult to come to terms with "Why did this happen?." But I would say that the OV conclusion is this, that not all evil works out for good, even for those who love God...
quote:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
John replies: God wills to harden those who first harden their OWN hearts against Him. This understanding has the support of all the early church fathers prior to Augustine, and all Arminian theologians since the Reformation.
But that is not the order:
EX 4:21 The Lord said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
This is before Pharaoh has hardened his heart even once.
quote:
Just a few weeks back you indicated that the elect DESERVE heaven, did you not?
No, I don't believe that...
quote:
Sahid: About Romans 9, take it in context. It's not talking about individuals. The issue Paul is dealing with from chapters 9-11 is how the Jews seem to be left out of God's plan.
That is part of the passage, but he is talking to individuals, about God choosing them, and not their group, for not all people in either group are chosen.
quote:
Sisters: Exodus 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."
I'm not sure what translation you are using, but the ones I have say God "raised Pharaoh up" for this purpose, not that he "allowed him to remain." It's "raised you up" when they translate the Hebrew in Ex. 9:16, and "raised you up" when they translate the Greek in Rom. 9:17, so this is the correct reading here, I would say...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
This is very plain, John, if some suffering is meaningless (that's in the warfare view, very clearly), then not all works out for good.
God can work good out any evil that happens.
To say Satan and others cause evil and then God works good out of it makes sense.
To say God causes the evil and then works good out of it is stupid.
1. "a house divided against itself cannot stand"
2. if God is busy doing evil, and Satan wants to oppose Him, would Satan then do good? 
3. if God does evil and good, then those two words don't mean anything anymore
James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/6/2004 4:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Sahid: About Romans 9, take it in context. It's not talking about individuals. The issue Paul is dealing with from chapters 9-11 is how the Jews seem to be left out of God's plan.
That is part of the passage, but he is talking to individuals
Nope.
Romans 9:
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
"kinsmen", the group of Israel, Paul's kinsmen, plural
4 who are Israelites (a group), to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
Romans 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Jacob and Esau:
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
Two nations, Jacob and Esau. God has a purpose for both. Individuals could opt out of the covenant (Aachan) or opt in (Rahab), but Paul is talking about the nation Israel as a group.
Romans 9:30 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law."
Gentiles are a group.
Israel is a group.
Failing as a group to keep the covenant, individuals in Israel could get into the new covenant as Paul outlines in
Romans 10:
9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/9/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
Lee: ... if some suffering is meaningless (that's in the warfare view, very clearly), then not all works out for good.
God can work good out any evil that happens.
That's not the warfare worldview... But I agree!
quote:
To say God causes the evil and then works good out of it is stupid.
1. "a house divided against itself cannot stand"
But if God sees the good purpose, then he is not fighting himself. Like a weightlifter working out, "no pain, no gain."
2. if God is busy doing evil, and Satan wants to oppose Him, would Satan then do good?
God doesn't do evil, though, he does plan sinful actions, for a good purpose. And Satan is not free! He serves God's purposes...
Psalm 119:91 ... for all things are Your servants.
3. if God does evil and good, then those two words don't mean anything anymore
No, God doesn't do evil. I try and state this carefully! God plans even sinful action, but the source of the sin does not come from him. And God has a good purpose, so the sinful action results in good, thus God does good, even in these situations.
Isaiah 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see and be satisfied...
quote:
James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
Amen!
"If anyone could tell you the shortest, surest way to all happiness and perfection, he must tell you to make it a rule to yourself to thank and praise God for everything that happens to you. For it is certain that whatever seeming calamity happens to you, if you thank and praise God for it, you turn it into a blessing." (William Law)
Blessings (in all forms!),
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/9/2004 4:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi again, Sisters,
quote:
Lee: That is part of the passage, but he is talking to individuals
Sisters: Nope.
Romans 9:
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh ...
So are you saying Paul didn't have in mind here the salvation of individuals? Surely he meant that here, this is not just wishing that God would choose Israel in a general way, and just that, and maybe not even really save anybody.
quote:
Jacob and Esau:
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
Two nations, Jacob and Esau.
Yes, they became nations. But there weren't two real nations in her womb! Yes, groups are mentioned here, but always, throughout these verses, selection of part of the group, i.e. of individuals, is primarily in view.
Blessings,
Lee
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/9/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | When we research precisely what Old Testament reference Paul was citing when he said, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated," (Mal. 1:2-3) it becomes clear that he was definitely not arguing divine predeterminism when he said this. If he were, he would have simply been quoting the OT passage out of context (and divorcing it from its original meaning). I personally am quite uncomfortable with the idea that either Paul was misusing the Scriptures here or (worse yet) that the Holy Spirit would so contradict
The original context of the verses Paul is quoting reveals the exact OPPOSITE of determinism. God hated Esau with good reason, and loved Jacob with equally good reason. Malachi ch. 1 reveals this plainly.
In addition, Paul's point in the first several verses of Rom. 9 is that "not all (descendants of) Israel are Israel," and that "...it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." Rom 9:8
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/10/2004 4:25 AM (GMT -6) | | High John, 
I'm in a goofy mood this morning, please bear with me...
quote:
When we research precisely what Old Testament reference Paul was citing when he said, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated," (Mal. 1:2-3) it becomes clear that he was definitely not arguing divine predeterminism when he said this. ... The original context of the verses Paul is quoting reveals the exact OPPOSITE of determinism. God hated Esau with good reason, and loved Jacob with equally good reason. Malachi ch. 1 reveals this plainly.
But doesn't Paul's statement apply to some extent to the actual individuals Esau and Jacob? And isn't God's choice evident even in Mal. 1? Why does God ask "was not Esau Jacob's brother?" if the point is that Esau and his descendents sinned, and that is the reason God rejected them.
This is in response to the question "How have you loved us?" God's response is to note that two people, starting out similarly (both brothers), "yet" (no mention of their choices, "yet despite their similar beginning" is meant) I loved Jacob (he was not notable for good conduct!), and hated Esau.
Thus Paul is not pulling this verse out of context, when he applies it to predestination, as he surely does:
RO 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand...
If God's is responding to their choices, then Paul's question makes no sense:
RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust?
And his answer doesn't fit with responding to choices, either:
RO 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Pretty clear, I think!
quote:
In addition, Paul's point in the first several verses of Rom. 9 is that "not all (descendants of) Israel are Israel," and that "...it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." Rom 9:8
Yes, I agree. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, though, I believe it is God's promise, i.e. his choice, before they were born, even, that points out the real descendents.
Toodle pip, and hasta la pizza...
Blessings,
Lee
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/10/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey All!
These things on Calvinism and God's Control are mysterious. I have close freinds of hypercalvinist ilk and fewer who are OVT. I think the fruit of OVT will better the fruit of C alvinism any day.
MOst say we mustn't judge doctrines by their fruit but only by the written Word. I disagree...how could a true and Holy doctrine be the root of confusion and disgrace?
I once read that the Pharisees had a doctrine on freewill vs. God's... it said that the freewill of man will not invade or discount the will of God and vice versa. I did'nt adopt the view, I just ponder it.
As a father of 4, ages 17-26, all saved childrew, these subjects have become worn with dialogue around the house. I have heard it preached, God wills the death and disaster that you all have expereinced...the dying infant, the suicide of your brother the pastor, the falling of the towers on 9-11. Thankfully, my kids are gaining balance on this awful negativity. I love teachers, like Dr. Boyd who will weigh in against such mockery. Give me the Loving God who knows all, yet has given freedom and responsibility to men too. The evil that happens I hope and pray is viewed as a combination of God at work, satan at his hating, and man's living- both in Truth as well as Darkness. When face my God in heaven, the crowns I pray I'll have to be layed at His feet will have been the result of my fighting to the finish to gain a glorious prize, all the while counting on His Graqce and Strength...still it is Him who Stregthened "ME" to win the battles or suffer willingly the necessary failures we sometimes experience.
Even Calvin surely wasn't as hypercalvin as some I know and love!
Has anyone read any Dave Hunt on the subject. I'm an ardent Dave Hunt opponent on most any OTHER subject. But on calvinism, I'd heartily agree with him.
Grace and freewill to all in serving HIM'
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