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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 6/30/2004 9:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey y'all (Yes I used to be in the SBC)
This is my first post and i wanted to share a thought I had.
Just for discussion sake let's assume that the major premise of Hyper-(deterministic)Calvinism is true.
Major Premise: "He(God)is controlling all things in undisturbed majesty" -Loraine Boettner
So if this is true then God has controlled or otherwise responsibly permitted Classical Arminianism and Open View Theism to come about.
(1) There are too many Good Christian people who believe these views to count them out of the realm of Christianity, much less say they have no personal relationship with God.
Then this must be true...
(2) God is using these views in order to bring Predestined people to Himself.
So if we believe that Calvinism's Major Premise, and we believe that people with other views other than Calvinism can be saved (1), then we must believe that God uses Open Theism and the Various Arminianisms to bring pre-chosen people to Himself (2).
SO, would God not be lying? If I am predestined and He has to convince me of Open View Theism to get me to come to Him, would He not be misleading? Since God cannot lie, we must either conclude that (1) is wrong or that the Major Premise is wrong.
(1) is simply unreasonable to conclude as wrong, unless you think you can exhaustively know the extent of each person's faith.
Major Premise must therefore be incorrect.
In short, I am arguing that the very existence of Open theism and Arminianism(s) must be ordained by God in Calvinistic thought. So why do they fight against it?
I am sure that some scholar I have yet read has a similiar argument, but this has been my original thought until someone tells me a scholar who can expand my thoughts on this argument. I am not a trained theologian, but have spent the last two years of my life studyign "predestination vs. free-will", since my SBC upbringing left me with more questions than answers.
What do y'all think?
-Chuck Bost
Check out my open theism site on my webpage
www.westga.edu/~stu59980/index.html
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/30/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/30/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Such steriotypes, strawmen, and unending frivolity.
If you were married, your wife would roll her eyes. If you've a girl friend, she will "tolorate" it. (Or whatever.) | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/30/2004 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by cbost6421
Nope not married PotOnWheel... Why do You ask?
I just think it is funny how something could be "preordained" and they can feel like they must fight against it. If God has truly fore-caused it, then how can they think they can actually beat it, unless God has fore-caused that too? but what if it is fore-caused to bring pre-chosen people to Christ? would it not be lying, or very misleading at the least?
Hi cbost,
The "compatibilistic" view of free will espoused by Jonathan Edwards and many Calvinists says that "you are free to do what you want," but quickly adds that "your wants (desires) are determined by God." This supposedly grants us the BELIEF that we are exercising our own free will (doing what we want), while preserving "the sovereignty of God" as they understand it.
Personally, I don't see how this can avoid the implication of God as sovereign puppetmaster, but to many Calvinists, this is the valid synthesis of freewill and God's sovereignty.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 7/2/2004 1:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm!
All this determined free-will decisions just sounds like doublethink to me! And ends up with lots of tangles and knots.
How about another option... Christians are living out a personal relationship with God despite what their theology says. They live out genuine free-will interactions even though they don't believe they exist. A friend used to say that from our point of view, we live out an un-settled future, even though God really has settled it before. This leaves great big mental hoops to jump through... did God preordain my sin and the consequences that follow?? My brain is meellltttinnnngg.....
love
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/2/2004 2:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Chuck: If God has truly fore-caused it, then how can they think they can actually beat it, unless God has fore-caused that too?
Yes, God is in control of everything, OVT, and those who argue about it...
quote:
... but what if it is fore-caused to bring pre-chosen people to Christ? would it not be lying, or very misleading at the least?
People don't need a Systematic Theology in their heads to come to Christ, though. So God is not lying, if people don't have all their beliefs in order, when they come to him, or if they don't come to him for the best of reasons. "No one has an honorable conversion" (a Sri Lankan pastor). What is important is to submit to God, and the doctrines will all follow eventually (Php. 3:15).
quote:
More over does GOd determine (contrary to His Word) that many of These Calvinists fight us by perverbially burning us at the stake, in stead of out of Love?
Believers do sin. OVT believers too! Now is this under God's control? I think it is, and for a good purpose. But for someone who loves God, all that happens to them will work out for good (Rom. 8:28). But this is not possible if God is not in control! OV has to say most (some? a tiny bit?) of what happens to those who love God will turn out for good, the rest is simply regrettable. But that's not Scriptural...
quote:
Would God not be causing our "heresy" then? Would not His Holiness be sacrificed?
Well, let's set aside whether OV is a heresy, and talk about people woshipping the antichrist:
2TH 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie...
But this does not sacrifice his holiness, God is not the source of the sin, he is not the source of the lie (Heb. 6:18). And God has a good purpose, thus he is not guilty, he is not sinning.
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/2/2004 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
People don't need a Systematic Theology in their heads to come to Christ, though. So God is not lying, if people don't have all their beliefs in order, when they come to him, or if they don't come to him for the best of reasons. "No one has an honorable conversion" (a Sri Lankan pastor). What is important is to submit to God, and the doctrines will all follow eventually (Php. 3:15).
Yes, and someday I have hope that even you will see the light, Lee. 
Lee said:
Believers do sin. OVT believers too! Now is this under God's control? I think it is, and for a good purpose.
John replies:
What a fine mess of double-talk, Lee! The BIBLE reveals clearly that God HATES sin, will not forgive unconditionally, and opposes sin in every form and fashion.
Lee went on to change horses midstream by saying:
But for someone who loves God, all that happens to them will work out for good (Rom. 8:28). But this is not possible if God is not in control! OV has to say most (some? a tiny bit?) of what happens to those who love God will turn out for good, the rest is simply regrettable. But that's not Scriptural...
John responds:
This is simply untrue, Lee. Upon what published pro-Open View work do you base such an accusation? This particular Open Theist categorically affirms that all things work together for good--to those who love God--This only applies to the class of people who truly love God.
Second, what Paul refers to in Romans 8, in context, is clearly tragedy that befalls us, not our own sins (though of course our sins may bring tragedy our way).
Lee said:
Well, let's set aside whether OV is a heresy, and talk about people woshipping the antichrist:
2TH 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie...
But this does not sacrifice his holiness, God is not the source of the sin, he is not the source of the lie (Heb. 6:18). And God has a good purpose, thus he is not guilty, he is not sinning.
John replies:
The context of 2 Th. 2:11 makes it clear that this powerful delusion was sent BECAUSE they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, and they did not believe the truth but rather, took pleasure in wickedness:
2 Th. 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
This is in perfect harmony with Romans 1, for instance, where God reveals that in the case of those who "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," God lets them go, giving them over to a depraved mind. Also parallel to this principle of God's righteous temporal judgment on sin is when "an evil spirit from the Lord" was sent to torment King Saul--AFTER he had rebelled grieviously against the commandment of the Lord, and "the Spirit of the Lord had departed from him."
There's nothing arbitrary at all in this sort of thing; God is merely giving people what they want when he does these things.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Hosea 9:9 They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/3/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John,
quote:
Lee: Believers do sin. OVT believers too! Now is this under God's control? I think it is, and for a good purpose.
John replies:
What a fine mess of double-talk, Lee! The BIBLE reveals clearly that God HATES sin, will not forgive unconditionally, and opposes sin in every form and fashion.
Yes, I agree! Except for the label of double-talk.  And I also hold that God controls even sinful events, his opposition to sin does not mean that sin frustrates him, or thwarts his purpose.
GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good...
quote:
Lee: OV has to say most (some? a tiny bit?) of what happens to those who love God will turn out for good, the rest is simply regrettable. But that's not Scriptural...
John responds:
This is simply untrue, Lee. Upon what published pro-Open View work do you base such an accusation? This particular Open Theist categorically affirms that all things work together for good--to those who love God--This only applies to the class of people who truly love God.
I agree that this verse applies only to people who love God. But the OV has the "Warfare Worldview"! Which is what I mean by saying not all works out for good, even for those who love God:
"... we would of course look to God for our comfort in the midst of our suffering, trust that he is working to bring good out of the evil, and find consolation in our confidence that the war will someday come to a glorious end." (Greg Boyd, from "Satan and the Problem of Evil")
Now this is a step back from Rom. 8:28. God is now "working to bring good out of the evil," implying he is making an attempt, implying he may not always be successful.
"Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil." (Greg Boyd)
And this is a step back even further, thus believers must simply put up with evil too, sometimes...
quote:
2TH 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie...
Lee: But this does not sacrifice his holiness, God is not the source of the sin, he is not the source of the lie (Heb. 6:18). And God has a good purpose, thus he is not guilty, he is not sinning.
John replies:
The context of 2 Th. 2:11 makes it clear that this powerful delusion was sent BECAUSE they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, and they did not believe the truth but rather, took pleasure in wickedness...
Yes, let's read on further!
2TH 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
God's choice comes first, when people believe the truth, and receive love of the truth, and are sanctified by the Spirit, so they do not find pleasure in wickedness.
quote:
This is in perfect harmony with Romans 1, for instance, where God reveals that in the case of those who "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," God lets them go, giving them over to a depraved mind.
Yes, God gives people over to more sin when they sin. And God gave them over to sin in the first place, too:
1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die...
1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." Paul parallels the two as he does in Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Scripture shows that spiritual death spread to all because they all sinned (a choice to wrong action), not because they were born.
quote:
Yes, God gives people over to more sin when they sin. And God gave them over to sin in the first place, too:
James 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."
Thank you James.
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/3/2004 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SwanLake,
quote:
RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned...
Scripture shows that spiritual death spread to all because they all sinned (a choice to wrong action), not because they were born.
But then Paul's statement back in 1 Cor. 15:22 is not true! "By sinning, all die," he should have said. Are you saying that Adam's sin had nothing to do with why people die?
We start out sinful because of Adam. We get the sin nature because of his sin, and we exercise it right away. Also, sin affected creation, too, but animals didn't sin, yet they also die. Our sins affect other people, too! Now we get started sinning right away, so peoples' dying is not solely because of Adam's sin. But his sin did affect us. And then we sin on top of that.
quote:
Lee: Yes, God gives people over to more sin when they sin. And God gave them over to sin in the first place, too...
James 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."
Tempting people to sin is not the same as giving them over to sin, though. It's like this:
HOS 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols; leave him alone!
I think the OV people step up to this, too! John was quoting this to me...
RO 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
PS 81:12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices.
quote:
Thank you James.
No, my name is Lee. You're welcome, though...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | John:
This is simply untrue, Lee. Upon what published pro-Open View work do you base such an accusation? This particular Open Theist categorically affirms that all things work together for good--to those who love God--This only applies to the class of people who truly love God.
Lee says:
I agree that this verse applies only to people who love God. But the OV has the "Warfare Worldview"! Which is what I mean by saying not all works out for good, even for those who love God:
"... we would of course look to God for our comfort in the midst of our suffering, trust that he is working to bring good out of the evil, and find consolation in our confidence that the war will someday come to a glorious end." (Greg Boyd, from "Satan and the Problem of Evil")
John responds:
Okay, it's like this: Say one of us is killed in a terrorist bombing. For the true Christian, God works through, in and with even such a horrendous tragedy and injustice as this is for our good. This life is but a vapor, anyway, and you would instantly be with Him in heaven--it can't get any better (good) than that.
Lee said:
Now this is a step back from Rom. 8:28. God is now "working to bring good out of the evil," implying he is making an attempt, implying he may not always be successful.
John responds:
I think you're reading into GB's comments more than is actually there. It is not clear to me how GB is minimizing the import of Rom. 8:28 at all. What GB is saying is that in our subjective understanding, we trust God is working all things together for our good. How this differs from even the most hyper-Calvinistic view is not clear to me. Trust in God consist of precisely what Dr. Boyd is saying.
Lee said:
"Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil." (Greg Boyd)
And this is a step back even further, thus believers must simply put up with evil too, sometimes...
John responds:
You have once again switched horses midstream, Lee. The Boyd quote you reference above clearly states the subject of the sentence is not "believers" but GOD.
John replies:
The context of 2 Th. 2:11 makes it clear that this powerful delusion was sent BECAUSE they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, and they did not believe the truth but rather, took pleasure in wickedness...
Lee says:
Yes, let's read on further!
2TH 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
God's choice comes first, when people believe the truth, and receive love of the truth, and are sanctified by the Spirit, so they do not find pleasure in wickedness.
John replies:
Did not God choose Israel too? And yet Israel has in large part been hardened due to their unbelief (Rom. 9). Yes God's choice comes first, and his choice is that (as I'm sure you will agree) ALL will be saved. Therefore, your particularistic reading of this verse does not follow from either my premises or yours.
Lee says:
Yes, God gives people over to more sin when they sin. And God gave them over to sin in the first place, too:
1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die...
John replies:
Actually, the subject of that verse is ADAM, not God. So even given the traditional Augustinian view of Original Sin, it is not God that gave them over to sin in the first place; it is ADAM who did this.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/3/2004 10:12 PM (GMT -6) | | cbost
your logic follows, BUT it won't convince a Calvinist.
If you can believe that God ordains sin without sinning, you can believe God ordains lies without lying. They may grant that God uses open theism, which he ordained, for the greater good of bringing people to a relationship with him. But God can also use terrible evils, which he ordains, to bring people to a relationship with him.
Hence, the fact that open theism exists by the ordination of God no more counts in its favor than the fact that evil exists (and, after all, they see open thiesm as an evil) counts in favor of evil. Moreover, they believe they need to resist God-ordained open theism for the same reason they believe they need to resist God-ordained evil.
They're predestined to!
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 7/4/2004 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
cbost
your logic follows, BUT it won't convince a Calvinist.
If you can believe that God ordains sin without sinning, you can believe God ordains lies without lying. They may grant that God uses open theism, which he ordained, for the greater good of bringing people to a relationship with him. But God can also use terrible evils, which he ordains, to bring people to a relationship with him.
Hence, the fact that open theism exists by the ordination of God no more counts in its favor than the fact that evil exists (and, after all, they see open thiesm as an evil) counts in favor of evil. Moreover, they believe they need to resist God-ordained open theism for the same reason they believe they need to resist God-ordained evil.
They're predestined to!
Greg
Greg, (BTW i was the one who called your office the other day and asked about an open view church in atlanta)
I just want you to know that my logic did convinve one Calvinist... ME!
growing up in an SBC chuch my questions became increasingly unanswered and ignored. I even remember my extremely Arminian (almost to the point of Open View Thesim)College Minister telling me not to worry about the issue. This is the norm for students with questions in the Southern Baptist Convention.
After studying the issue for a year while I attended a junior college and was President of the BSU there, I came to realize that my Calvinist roots were completely wrong because they simply don't make sense in light of the fact that ther views were out there. While being a classical Arminian I attended NorthWestern College (just down the street from y'all, to play football) and began studying the view that they bashed so much, Open View Theism. I still remember one chapel speaker saying "How can GOd ordain Open Theism in the Church)
As for God ordaining lies without lying or God ordaining sin with out sinning, I just can't believe that. That is why I have become an open view theist. The fact that God would ordain OVT if it were not true would be God lying to me. Just as if He only "anthropomorhically mislead" Hezekiah about the number of years Hezekiah would live.
My logic did persuade onecalvinist, me.
now as far as God Ordaining things, IFgrace were truly not able to be resisted, How would Calvinists be able to resist what God has Ordained, Open view theism in particular. If God has Ordained that we get mugged, why should we carry mace or a gun to stop it? If God has ordained suicide bomber on our troops in Iraq, why should we have more security checkpoints, bomb sniffing dogs, etc.? why should we resist millions of babies being killed by abortion?
now if God has ordained that they fight OVT, why should they do anything different? That is what I hear in the replies to this post.
Somethign to be about Christian Love says that they should correct in gentleness (I am sure that some do try, but I have not had any experience with them), if not allow tolerance for the greater good of the kingdom.
Don't Y'all think?
-Chuck
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/4/2004 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
My logic did persuade onecalvinist, me.....now if God has ordained that they fight OVT, why should they do anything different? That is what I hear in the replies to this post.
Jesus very clearly stated as well that a kingdom divided agasint itself shall not stand! Yes I can see how you could be moved away from Calvinistic thinking for if God ordained OVT to exist, but he ordained that you fight against it....Well the spiritual law of what Jesus declared must apply....the Kingdom of God must fall or will fall for a kingdom divided against itself will fall. We can interpet that to mean as well therefore that it must fall. God would be a liar if it then didn't. Seeing the kingdom of God is not going to fall Calvinism must therefore be wrong. 
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/4/2004 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee says: ... the OV has the "Warfare Worldview"! Which is what I mean by saying not all works out for good, even for those who love God:
"... we would of course look to God for our comfort in the midst of our suffering, trust that he is working to bring good out of the evil, and find consolation in our confidence that the war will someday come to a glorious end." (Greg Boyd, from "Satan and the Problem of Evil")
John responds:
Okay, it's like this: Say one of us is killed in a terrorist bombing. For the true Christian, God works through, in and with even such a horrendous tragedy and injustice as this is for our good. This life is but a vapor, anyway, and you would instantly be with Him in heaven--it can't get any better (good) than that.
That's one example! That's good. Now every example is not like that, according to the warfare worldview. Not even this example, how about the people left behind? Maybe some wounded believers. Maybe a wife and some children. The point of this worldview is that the terrorists can do real damage, as part of the battle...
quote:
Lee said:
Now this is a step back from Rom. 8:28. God is now "working to bring good out of the evil," implying he is making an attempt, implying he may not always be successful.
John responds:
I think you're reading into GB's comments more than is actually there. It is not clear to me how GB is minimizing the import of Rom. 8:28 at all. What GB is saying is that in our subjective understanding, we trust God is working all things together for our good. How this differs from even the most hyper-Calvinistic view is not clear to me. Trust in God consist of precisely what Dr. Boyd is saying.
Dr. Boyd just visited this thread! Maybe he didn't read my post, though, or have time to correct me. I do think he made a careful statement in the quote above, though, so as not to say that God will always bring good out of evil. That's not part of the warfare worldview, from this quote, or from how people have explained it to me here.
quote:
Lee said:
"Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil." (Greg Boyd)
And this is a step back even further, thus believers must simply put up with evil too, sometimes...
John responds:
You have once again switched horses midstream, Lee. The Boyd quote you reference above clearly states the subject of the sentence is not "believers" but GOD.
How is it that believers need not tolerate evil, though, if God must do so?
quote:
John replies:
The context of 2 Th. 2:11 makes it clear that this powerful delusion was sent BECAUSE they did not receive the love of the truth...
2TH 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Lee: God's choice comes first, when people believe the truth, and receive love of the truth, and are sanctified by the Spirit, so they do not find pleasure in wickedness.
John replies:
Did not God choose Israel too? And yet Israel has in large part been hardened due to their unbelief (Rom. 9). Yes God's choice comes first, and his choice is that (as I'm sure you will agree) ALL will be saved. Therefore, your particularistic reading of this verse does not follow from either my premises or yours.
God's choice of Israel was to show mercy to some and harden others, though:
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened...
God's choice does come first, when he sends people into deception, and when he saves them. And I agree that God wills that all be saved, and I hope he will do this! That even those he hardens, he will also choose to save, because that is his purpose, even in hardening them:
RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
RO 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved...
quote:
Chuck: as far as God Ordaining things, IFgrace were truly not able to be resisted, How would Calvinists be able to resist what God has Ordained, Open view theism in particular. If God has Ordained that we get mugged, why should we carry mace or a gun to stop it?
This is assuming free will, though! God will control whether we carry a gun to stop getting mugged, and he will ordain whether we get mugged, too. What you are saying is like this: "If there is no free will, then assuming there is free will, then why etc."
quote:
now if God has ordained that they fight OVT, why should they do anything different?
Yes, God is in control of Calvinists!
quote:
Bobber: Seeing the kingdom of God is not going to fall Calvinism must therefore be wrong.
I shall hope that God has destined that Chuck will come back to Calvinism! And that this trip into OV will do him good...
Blessings,
Lee
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