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Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 7/2/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6)

In a disussion with albert as to the meaning of a passage in Matthew 21, I had contended that God could have destroyed Israel in the wilderness (excepting Moses) and raised up a new nation through Moses. The verse reads:

Ex. 32:9 And the Lord said unto Moses, "I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people: 10 Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume the them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Albert replied, "Even if we accept that the new nation was Israel, and it is hard to see how that could be (for instance, eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel would be gone)..."

My questions is this: Were there existing prophecies about the other 11 tribes that would have precluded the possibility of God actually raising up a new nation through Moses?? In other words, is this Exodous verse anthropomorphism or OV?

wjs

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 7/2/2004 4:05 AM (GMT -6)

If God said he was prepared to wipe 'em all out and start over with Moses, then that's what he was prepared to do. What's the problem?

Tom

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 7/2/2004 12:20 PM (GMT -6)

TGB,

quote:
If God said he was prepared to wipe 'em all out and start over with Moses, then that's what he was prepared to do. What's the problem?

I don't know of any. I was wondering if any erudite prophecy guru might know of earlier prophecies that would have gone unfulfilled, etc. And how that might have implications about OV. I'm an OV'er; just curious as to details. For example, what about:

"Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise.... Judah is a lion's whelp .... The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;
and unto Him shall the gathering of the peoples be."

Is there another hebraic reading of that passage? etc?

Or could God have been implying that those who accepted Moses would have been included in the new nation?

wjs

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 7/2/2004 1:44 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Jeff,

quote:
"Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise.... Judah is a lion's whelp .... The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the peoples be."

I'm not a prophecy guru, but it's not really clear, it seems, what "Shiloh" refers to here. Thus I don't know if it's possible to make this a prophecy that Judah would be a tribe until the Messiah comes, "Shiloh" may have come by the time of Moses...

Blessings,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

cbost6421
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65

Posted 7/4/2004 5:31 AM (GMT -6)

jeff,
could not God fufill those prophecies (if there are some) another way?
The fact that God is resourceful and always the causing one is the major benefit of the Open View.
-Chuck

stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 7/4/2004 7:23 AM (GMT -6)

cbost6421,

quote:
could not God fufill those prophecies (if there are some) another way? The fact that God is resourceful and always the causing one is the major benefit of the Open View.

My real concern was whether God was intending to destroy ALL of the other eleven tribes and whether some of the blessings, etc. about those 11 tribes had un-fulfilled prophecies like the one mentioned about Judah above. If Lee is correct about the one concerning Judah, the others may not be problematic either.

Are you saying that God could have fulfilled a prophecy about a non-existent tribe in another way? If so, could you give me an example of how that would work?

wjs

cbost6421
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65

Posted 7/4/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

MOst "prophecies" like this one are seen as conditional promises...
I.E. David's decendants will always be king if they always obey God.

I think that this prophecy fits that category, weather it explicitly says so or not.

If the text states that God really meant to destroy Israel, and presumably the tribe of Judah with it, then this would lead me to believe that this was a conditional prophecy. not all prophecies are conditional prophecies.

To further my point, who controlled "judah" from thier fall until Israel finally became independant again?

Not the jews, and certainly not the king of Judah. They sinned, so God removed them from their land. the Sceptor departed, because of thier sin, End of story.

stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 7/9/2004 2:02 PM (GMT -6)

Albert,

If you're reading this thread, I'd be interested in your take on this subject from a OV perspective.

wjs

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