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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/7/2004 7:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
I am trying to write a bunch of praise choruses and hymns with more of an Open Theist hint to them and will post a link to them when I get them done.
LOLOL!!! My, my,my....with the riots going on the internet and elsewhere about Open Theism I betya that's going to add fuel to the fire...and enflame alot of people  ...."Martha dear those hertics have written hymns about their beliefs! Hymns are sacred! Heads need to roll now!"  Actually some of the old hymns in the song books are full of doubt and unbelief...a few new hymns might be good....im not a full Open Theist that way you folk are but well...similar in a way....I think I better write some which reflect the way I view it to. I guess everyone will be looking very closely at what hymn book there singing from 
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/7/2004 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Arminian and the Calvinist read a passage in which God predicts what GOD is going to do in the future, and from this they determine that God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge [John]
Well I think it needs to be appreciated John that not all prophecies are things God has decided to do. Some prophecies I would say are merely things that God has seen from the place of eternity. As for example various portions in Revelatons which speak of how people will respond. A Calvinist would say God programed the rebels to do as they do. I don't believe that. I don't think you do either. We both believe in freedom of will....but then again God must have known the future...maybe it was possible by the way and manner I have stated? What do you think? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/7/2004 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
The Arminian and the Calvinist read a passage in which God predicts what GOD is going to do in the future, and from this they determine that God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge [John]
Well I think it needs to be appreciated John that not all prophecies are things God has decided to do. Some prophecies I would say are merely things that God has seen from the place of eternity. As for example various portions in Revelatons which speak of how people will respond. A Calvinist would say God programed the rebels to do as they do. I don't believe that. I don't think you do either. We both believe in freedom of will....but then again God must have known the future...maybe it was possible by the way and manner I have stated? What do you think?
Hi Bobber,
While I certainly understand where you're coming from (I was an Arminian for over 30 years), I don't think it is necessary to postulate exhaustive definite foreknowledge for God to predict even what appear to be free-will decisions yet to be made by moral agents. I find Dr. Boyd's concept of character solidification helpful, as well as the crucial distinction between morally significant choices and morally INsignificant choices.
For instance, take Isaiah's predictive prophecy of King Cyrus. This sounds very much like God predicted the future free-will choices of several people (and no doubt it is). Using the principle of choices that are not morally significant (like naming a child Cyrus and perhaps God causing a married couple to have sex at just the right time for a male to be conceived, etc.) it presents no difficulty to the Open View to say that God could, with no violation of moral agency, directly deterministically act in bringing Cyrus into existence and in having him named "Cyrus", and in preserving him alive until he would ascend the throne of Persia or wherever it was, etc.
Further, it presents no moral dilemma for God to cause Cyrus to be willing to let the people of Israel go back to their homeland at precisely the right time (after 70 years of captivity), because it was the RIGHT thing to do (God was not causing Cyrus to sin).
Wink Pratney (who's been an OVer for many years now) refers to this as a "will-freeze," in which God overrides human volition in order to accomplish His purposes in history. Pratney adds that when God does unilaterally acts in such a way, it never involves God causing people to do morally wrong things.
The other issue of God predicting what people will do, character solidification, works simply on the principle that people are creatures of extremely predictable habits, and once one's character is solidified/hardened in a particular direction (good or evil), God can and does sometimes deterministically manipulate them for His own purposes (such as with Pharoah, who hardened his own heart against God first, which choice God simply confirmed and then used Pharoah's wickedness for His own glory. It was not sinful for God to use Pharoah in this way, because Pharoah had already freely and repeatedly CHOSEN the path he was on, and didn't even want to repent.
I am unaware of any predictive prophecies in the Bible that cannot be accounted for with the Open View point of view; however, I would be more than happy to look at whatever prophecies you feel don't fit into the Open View.
God bless,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/7/2004 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Wink Pratney (who's been an OVer for many years now) refers to this as a "will-freeze," in which God overrides human volition in order to accomplish His purposes in history. Pratney adds that when God does unilaterally acts in such a way, it never involves God causing people to do morally wrong things. [John]
Hi John and thanks for you reply. Well this Mr Pratney as you say speaks of "will freeze" which occurs to make a prophecy take place and Mr Pratney further states its never to cause people to do morally wrong things. Well, we have say the prophecy of Herod and what he ended up doing to the children of Bethlehem. Morally wrong. Well we know that God didn't freeze his will, correct? Scripture doesn't even say that it was done in order to fulfill [in this case] scripture states thus was fulfilled....So isn't this an example of a prophecy of someone doing a horrible thing? Therefore I would have to suggest that God indeed know the future.
quote:
I am unaware of any predictive prophecies in the Bible that cannot be accounted for with the Open View point of view; however, I would be more than happy to look at whatever prophecies you feel don't fit into the Open View.
Well John I would have to wonder say about the book of Revelations, where it speaks of the response of the people at the end of the age. Doesn't God speak very definately about what the world will decide. Some might argue that would be a proven given that men would rebel however we know the story about Jonah....all the city of Niniveah repented....if God doesn't know the future [lets say in the way and manner that ive suggested in my other posts] but if God didn't know the future how could he tell us all about the decisions of humanity in Revelations? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/7/2004 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Wink Pratney (who's been an OVer for many years now) refers to this as a "will-freeze," in which God overrides human volition in order to accomplish His purposes in history. Pratney adds that when God does unilaterally acts in such a way, it never involves God causing people to do morally wrong things. [John]
Hi John and thanks for you reply. Well this Mr Pratney as you say speaks of "will freeze" which occurs to make a prophecy take place and Mr Pratney further states its never to cause people to do morally wrong things. Well, we have say the prophecy of Herod and what he ended up doing to the children of Bethlehem. Morally wrong. Well we know that God didn't freeze his will, correct? Scripture doesn't even say that it was done in order to fulfill [in this case] scripture states thus was fulfilled....So isn't this an example of a prophecy of someone doing a horrible thing? Therefore I would have to suggest that God indeed know the future.
Herod's actions were not specifically predicted; all that was predicted was that weeping would be heard in Ramah. Further, looking at the original context of the (ecbatic) prophecy, it becomes clear that the original reference was to something contemporaneous with the prophet Jeremiah.
The NT refers to this sort of "fulfillment" often--it was not originally meant to be a predictive prophecy, but the NT writers refer to them as "that the Scripture might be fulfilled." In other words, they look to the past to explain the present, looking for similar occurences in the past as seemingly being reenacted in the present.
quote:
I am unaware of any predictive prophecies in the Bible that cannot be accounted for with the Open View point of view; however, I would be more than happy to look at whatever prophecies you feel don't fit into the Open View.
quote:
Well John I would have to wonder say about the book of Revelations, where it speaks of the response of the people at the end of the age. Doesn't God speak very definately about what the world will decide. Some might argue that would be a proven given that men would rebel however we know the story about Jonah....all the city of Niniveah repented....if God doesn't know the future [lets say in the way and manner that ive suggested in my other posts] but if God didn't know the future how could he tell us all about the decisions of humanity in Revelations?
Revelation does not contain "all about the decisions of humanity," in the sense of each specific detailed decision everyone will ever make. Revelation gives general descriptions of the trends of history--the majority serving Satan and self, with the persecuted minority staying faithful to God in the midst of their trials.
Further, it is a given that MOST people always will reject God--this has always been true in every age.
Additionally, the majority of Christian scholars throughout history have not held to a futuristic view of Revelation. Personally, while I remain a reluctant premillenialist, I find the most satisfying approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is to view it as a graphically stunning depiction of spiritual warfare.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/7/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Regarding a "different God"...
I was wondering what the core issues would be concerning experiencing and serving a "different God." It may seem an odd question, but is the essence of worshipping the right God my UNDERSTANDING of Him or is it my properly following the ordained means that He has given me to worship Him? I have been considering that the GOd of the Bible is not defined by what I feel or understand so much as by His ordinances. It seems that He has revealed certain means, methods, and ordinances for those who desire to worship Him to follow and those that obey these, worship the God of the Bible. It also seems that those who refuse to follow the ordained means, regardless of what they think. perceive and understand, ultimately do not worship the God of the Bible. If this is true, the means and ordinences of God correctly followed are the only way to worship the God of the Bible.
An easy example is when Israel made the golden calf and worshipped it and claimed that it was the God that had led them out of Egypt. God had indeed led them out of Egypt, but they were worshipping a false God because the true God had not ordained that He be represented as a graven image or an image of any sort.
Jeroboam does something similar in 1 Kings 12:25.
"Then Jeroboam built Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim, and lived there. And he went out from there and built Penuel. Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom will return to the house of David. “If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.” So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt.” He set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. And he made houses on high places, and made priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi. Jeroboam instituted a feast in the eighth month on the fifteenth day of the month, like the feast which is in Judah, and he went up to the altar; thus he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves which he had made. And he stationed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. Then he went up to the altar which he had made in Bethel on the fifteenth day in the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised in his own heart; and he instituted a feast for the sons of Israel and went up to the altar to burn incense."
This worship was being claimed by the king to be the true God that led the people out of Egypt. We know that this was a different God, not by the "feelings" or perceptions of those that worshipped, but because this worship was not in accordance with the ordained means. The true God had commanded that He be worshipped in the Temple in Jerusalem. Those who sought to worship Him instead in Bethel were really not worshipping the God that brought them out of Egypt.
Idolatry isn't just "external" with golden calves, it is primarily an internal issue. Colossians 3:5 says, "Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them." 1 John ends with the following command, "Little children, guard yourself from idols."
I think that a fairly strong argument could be made that the means and ordinances of God must be followed even now if we are to worship the true God. Sincerity is not enough to protect us from error. 2 Samuel 6 presents us with the consequences of ignoring the means and methods that God has prescribed to serve Him. "David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals. But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God."
Lastly, we know that Paul speaks of another "Jesus," we hear of other "christs - anointed ones," and those in Matthew 7:22 who call the real Jesus "Lord" and claimed that they worked in His name but they had been serving another Jesus the whole time because the real one says, "Depart from me you who practice lawlessness. I never knew you."
Does anyone else have comments regarding the means and its impact on which God we serve?
Spen Lake
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/7/2004 3:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Worshipping a different God? 
Jesus is saving the Reformed, Armenian, OVer, Oneness, Christ is the Light,Eastern Orthodox,Catholic and whoever else is calling upon the Name of the Lord. He saves us because He is love. Mercy does not require justice. Grace does not require work. The faithfulness of God is not actuated by my decisions. God is Faithful. We are not called to police the borders but to follow Jesus.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. Just because people try but don't measure up to what we think is the right way doesn't mean God is unfaithful. We only know in part, but we sure talk like we know the entire length, depth, and height. Love one another as God loved us.
The Holy Spirit is the principle rule.
Quaker Ron
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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 7/7/2004 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/8/2004 2:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi feelinahole
Well isn't it all about saving sinners?
Peter denied Jesus and was forgiven.
Oneness gain access through Jesus. The Father honors those who honor His Son.
You are framing the what if's scenarios, not I, "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
You are trying to find out what scripture proclaims God to be? Try faithful, merciful, compassionate, forgiving, to sum up God is love. The story reveals God is love.
Were those diciplined in the church lost? Those He loves He chastens.
Policing ourselves is far different than limiting the gospel.
You don't need mercy if there is justice. Think about it. It doesn't compute, except in some salvation theories.
Are you leaning on abstract ideas extracted from scripture or leaning on Jesus?
Peace
Ron
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/8/2004 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Herod's actions were not specifically predicted; all that was predicted was that weeping would be heard in Ramah. Further, looking at the original context of the (ecbatic) prophecy, it becomes clear that the original reference was to something contemporaneous with the prophet Jeremiah. The NT refers to this sort of "fulfillment" often--it was not originally meant to be a predictive prophecy, but the NT writers refer to them as "that the Scripture might be fulfilled." In other words, they look to the past to explain the present, looking for similar occurences in the past as seemingly being reenacted in the present. [John]
Well I have a hard time with that John for it seems very apparent it was written the way it was to show actual fulfillment of a prophecy so as to convince the reader that all lines up with what God said through the prophets about the Christ to come. I mean if we stated Abraham Lincoln way back in 1860 and I Bobber in 2004, ate a steak meal…so what…what’s your point…..no scripture revealed a horrible thing was going to take place with children as Jeremiah mentioned….and it was fulfilled by what Herod did…..the bottom line is God had revelation this was going to occur hundreds of years before it did….not because he caused it to occur….but because of revelation coming back to him once the future unfolded….this is the only way that freedom of will can be maintained.
quote:
Revelation does not contain "all about the decisions of humanity," in the sense of each specific detailed decision everyone will ever make. Revelation gives general descriptions of the trends of history--the majority serving Satan and self, with the persecuted minority staying faithful to God in the midst of their trials.[John]
No if God did not know the future [and yes we do agree he controls some things like the Second Coming Of Christ in the sense that he has chosen this to occur] but if God didn’t know the future he would never have been able to even tell you of the general trend of history and stating this will be the future. For example the city of Ninevah, did they not repent as a whole? They most certainly did. So if God didn’t know the future there could be no guarantee whatsoever that what he stated was correct…..
quote:
Further, it is a given that MOST people always will reject God--this has always been true in every age. [John]
Well you’re assuming something which you claim would be the case but if God is basing things on well…it’s a given…no its not a given….like I say Ninevah did repent…..and its stated a certain whole town came to know the Lord during the ministry of Peter….so if you’re saying that God doesn’t know the future, then I would submit again that there is no way God could have made such a declaration…
quote:
Additionally, the majority of Christian scholars throughout history have not held to a futuristic view of Revelation. Personally, while I remain a reluctant premillenialist, I find the most satisfying approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is to view it as a graphically stunning depiction of spiritual warfare.[John]
Well if I might be so bold to say, I think they’re rather crazy and nuts to say so….I would say there are way too many things that are lining up, and not only that we have actual numbers of things that are meant I believe to be used as a key…..for the generation of the end to know…..like the 200 million soldiers from the east, which the Orient could now muster if they wanted to….and things like the mark of the beast….can’t buy or sell without the mark…..well with computer chips you can put in animals the size of a piece of rice…..and the present manner of transferring wealth more and more veering away from cash….I think ones would have to be crazy in not taking seriously the message of Revelations as being current but also future. 
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/8/2004 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi feelinahole
I'm trying to introduce a person who is faithful to save, Jesus. Not a onesided concept.
So are you saying Jesus won't save a oneness person who is calling on the name of the Lord to save him?
Who are you calling oneness? I am refering to the United Pentecostals.
You didn't hear me say we were not responsible agents. My post was not intended to be a comprehensive theology. Just preaching God is faithful, merciful, compassoniate, and forgiving. He saves sinners or not?
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I get the impression you fear the enemies ability to deceive more than trusting the Name of the Lord to save. No offense meant.
Peace
Ron
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/8/2004 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | feelinahole
quote:
Ron, have said this, it is probably best to agree to disagree. I think we are taking this post in a direction it was not meant to go.
Ron
On the contrary, this thread is asking to give a response to the charge OV worship a different God and not the "real God" that the Calvinists do. Your response to my post that Jesus saves all who call upon the Name of the Lord was as exclusive or even more so than the Calvinists charge. Before we agree to disagree I have to answer you last post.
quote:
It has to do with free will and our responsibility of what we do with the knowledge we are given.
Ron
Grasshopper (been wanting to say that all day) free will, responsibility, and knowledge are keeping humanity separated from God.
If God wasn't faithful to keep His covenant promises we would all be free willin in hell. The good news is about God's faithfulness to save, not whether man is responsible or has free will. I affirm the responsibility of the free will agent but would now shudder to claim either saves me. "Yet not I but Christ who liveth in me.."
quote:
Do you believe God saves against the will? If a person is willingly rejecting the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, God cannot save that person. God will not save against a person's will, forcing that person to believe if they do not want to accept the revelation of God.
BTW, what does Jesus say about eternal life? "This is eternal life: to know you, the one true God and him you have sent." So it is not enough to "call upon the name of the Lord." One must call upon the RIGHT Lord in order to be saved.
Ron
Give me a break, I know we are talking past each other but quit lifting up the will of man and start lifting up the faithfulness of God and you will start to see more people believing in Him. There is only one Lord, Jesus Messiah, and whosoever calls upon His Name shall be saved. No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost. Not enough to call upon the name of the Lord? One must call upon the Right Lord in order to be saved? Preach Jesus is Lord and Messiah with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven and people will start following Him. You talk like you have to work it out intellectually first in order to be saved. We will never get it mentally perfectly right but He can still save us to the uttermost.
quote:
"Abstract ideas from scripture?" Would that I would rely on them more. Where do you get YOUR ideas of Jesus from?
I so have a problem with Christians who use simplicity to cover a multitude of sins, including rebellion.
Ron
Jesus saves not abstract ideas, surely you know these things. Revelation, transformation, come from the teacher. The Holy Spirit, He is the one who teaches me, guides, and corrects. I like to study, read, check out the latest thing but I try not to trust my own understanding but trust the faithful Jesus. I like to reflect though, while I'm waiting on Him.
quote:
Ron: I think it is important to recognize that we are called not only to preach the truth, but to defend it as well. As such as it is important to recognize that there are those are in rebellion against God and accepting lies. As such, such lies need to be pointed out. Yes, Jesus is the saving one. But he calls us to be the vessel through which this salvation comes through preaching and some will not be saved unless the light shines on their evil deeds. And he has set out a definite way to be saved. Those who will not accept his way will not be saved.
Ron
I will just repeat what I said in the first post.
quote:
Worshipping a different God?
Jesus is saving the Reformed, Armenian, OVer, Oneness, Christ is the Light,Eastern Orthodox,Catholic and whoever else is calling upon the Name of the Lord. He saves us because He is love. Mercy does not require justice. Grace does not require work. The faithfulness of God is not actuated by my decisions. God is Faithful. We are not called to police the borders but to follow Jesus.
Peace
Ron
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/8/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
We do not have to have it all worked out in the beginning, but we are responsible to do so as we grow and, again, if a person rejects the Trinity they cannot have the Spirit of God in them. And they are not saved because they have rejected the revelation of God, plain and simple.
Hi feel,
While I do not agree with the Oneness point of view, I do not find anywhere in Scripture where it says a precise orthodox articulation of the trinity is a requirement for salvation. Do you?
quote:
To proclaim Jesus as Lord and not proclaim that the Father sent him and the Spirit santifies and this is the one True God who provided this plan of salvation, this is the one true God you should believe in is not proclaiming the full gospel.
I have personally known several Oneness believers and ministers, (Had two roommates in my bachelor days that were UPC, as well as worked closely with another church that had left the UPC to become nondenominational), and I can say without fear of contradiction that Oneness folks do not deny the Father sent the Son. Nor do they deny the Holy Spirit. They do define these as "manifestations" rather than "persons," but other than that, they tend to use the same analogies to explain the Godhead as trinitarians do, like:
Water, Ice, Mist
Root, Trunk, Branch
Person, Voice, Breath
Yolk, White, Shell
etc.
While I disagree with their explanation of the Godhead, I do not doubt that many of them truly love the Lord, and seek to be led by His Spirit (just as many trinitarians do).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/9/2004 2:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
John: while I humbly respect your opinion, I would suggest you read up on what Oneness proponents believe.
And I you.
quote:
It is quite plain to anyone who has read up on oneness theology that they do not hold to an orthodox view of God.
And I never once said they held an orthodox view of God.
quote:
That is why the Assemblies of God and others who formed at the same same time seperated themselves from them.
Yes, I know. My denominational background is Assembly of God, and I had to study A/G history to gain ministerial license with them.
quote:
As I stated before, Jesus put great emphasis on knowing his Father and the one True God. Salvation demands it.
The Oneness people emphatically affirm God as Father. You obviously haven't "read up" as much as you claim.
quote:
So are Mormons now our list of saved brethen because they believe the Father sent the Son, even though we may disagree with how they articulate the Trinity. How about Jehovah Witnesses? They "call upon the name of the Lord?"
Now we have switched horses midstream. I didn't say anything about Mormons or JWs. The difference between Oneness and LDS and JWs is that Oneness people majorly emphasize "the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ," whereas LDS and JW do not.
Dr. Boyd says he was saved in a Oneness church. Do you deny he was saved then?
quote:
Christians should start defending the God they believe in rather than watering him down for the sake of some cheap salvation.
Oneness folks I know can defend the God they believe in much better usually than most trinitarians. Again, while I find their beliefs to be scripturally inaccurate, I don't find anywhere in Scripture where one has to correctly articulate the doctrine of the trinity (which wasn't officially sanctioned until Nicea in 325 A.D.) in order to be truly saved.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/9/2004 3:11 AM (GMT -6) | | feelinahole
quote:
So Ron, does God violate the will of man in order to save him? Because unless you believe he does, you have to deal with the fact that man can reject God, plain and simple.
Ron
Of course not but He is so longsuffering and has all the time in the world to reveal HIS faithfulness and hopes man will quit looking at himself and see the vision of God's faithfulness and fall in love.
quote:
Where in the Bible does it say free will, responsibility and knowledge seperate us from God?
Ron
Right at the beginning of the story.
quote:
Finally, it is not MY words, but Jesus' that you must deal with.
Ron
No its your words I'm dealing with. I'm safe and secure in Jesus.
quote:
if a person rejects the Trinity they cannot have the Spirit of God in them.
Ron
feelinahole, John answered that right on. You need to get out more often.
quote:
I would assume in your view manying differing beliefs on God can be saved (JWs, Mormons, etc) so long as they call upon the name of the Lord.
Ron
I do affirm the love and mercy of God revealed explicitly in Jesus is beyond my knowledge and I do believe Jesus came to save sinners of whom Paul said he was the chiefest. Paul's testimony was that he would be a pattern. Where was Paul's free will headed when Jesus came upon the scene?
quote:
Your view of free will is very Calvinistic.
Ron
I do sound like a Calvinist, whats happened to me? Thats not the Ron I use to know. The Holy Spirit turned my heart from a subjective manipulative faith to trusting in Jesus to save me. How about that, does that sound reformed or what? Totally cool, really.
quote:
Preach the one True God in and out of season, Ron. Then you'll know people are saved.
Ron
Thanks for the advice, grasshopper.
Peace
Ron
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/9/2004 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | [quotee]I do affirm the love and mercy of God revealed explicitly in Jesus is beyond my knowledge and I do believe Jesus came to save sinners of whom Paul said he was the chiefest. Paul's testimony was that he would be a pattern. Where was Paul's free will headed when Jesus came upon the scene?
Paul the Apostle before saved was reaping havoc on the church….Jesus judged him….struck him down…made him blind…..God in his soveirngty will bring judgement on those outside of Christ if he so chooses to do so….Paul was just wise enough and smart enough to give his head a shake and realize he was truly fighting against God….His free will was still in tact….he chose now to serve God….he called out to Jesus, “Who are you Lord?!” I am Jesus whom you are persecuting its hard for you to kick against the pricks….” God also in other places brought judgement upon other people….Herod for claiming he was God…angel came down and smote him…..there are other examples as well…… the free will of Paul was still in tact….
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/9/2004 4:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Bobber
quote:
the free will of Paul was still in tact….
Ron
Man, talk about the mercy and grace of God. What a display.
Peace
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/9/2004 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Please show me in the Bible where the doctrine of the Trinity is a requirement for salvation, feel. Are we to suppose that there were no Christians in the world prior to Nicea?
The Bible says:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."
"The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel."
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Whosoever believeth on Him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
"Whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved."
"The GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation for every man that believeth."
And yet feel would have us ADD "...and who can properly articulate the orthodox doctrine of the trinity" to each of the above Scriptural commands.
When I first was born again at the age of five, all I knew was that God loved me and wanted to forgive me for my sins, and that I just had to ask him to, and to enter my heart. I had no concept of the Trinity in my mind whatsoever. But to hear feel, I wasn't really saved. Interesting. I wonder how many people feel believes ARE saved? Most people who claim to be trinitarians have at best a minimal understanding of what the term implies, and certainly no better an understanding of the Deity than the Oneness people do.
Thanks for your prayers. I need all them I can get. And you do too apparently. Judging everyone as saved or not saved without respect to what they truly believe and without respect to the state of their heart is what is truly sad.
I heard Dr. Boyd say with my own ears, "I was saved in an apostolic church." ("Apostolic" is the preferred self-designation of Oneness people).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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