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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
I appreciate your perspective here, but I'm still not sure what the OV says prayer accomplishes. Are you saying that God waits until we pray before he will act? That is different than saying the future is open, I don't think one implies the other...
Blessings,
Lee
Lee, God instructed Jonah to tell the people of Ninevah that He was going to utterly destroy them. The people then began fasting and praying, and God relented. That is what prayer accomplishes. God changes His mind; He responds; He intervenes... I don't believe that God ALWAYS waits until we pray before He will act; just like He doesn't always do anything else. The only thing I am certain of as a believer; that He promises (James 4:7) that He will always do, is to draw near to us when we draw near to Him. Even that is a response to prayer. There are countless examples throughout scripture of God responding to the prayers of His people. I believe that is why He told us to pray without ceasing. Prayer is vital to the relationship, and it is partnering with God in defeating the enemy. Jesus prayed fervently in the garden of Gethsemane; obviously for a different reason, to gain strength for what was ahead. I do believe God responded to His Son; He strengthened Him for what lay ahead. Jesus knew His identity and the source of His strength.
Prayer is relationship, first and foremost (I believe). Prayer is warfare (We battle not against flesh and blood...). Prayer calls upon all of the spiritual resources available to us. Prayer also encourages us to come aside, and listen to the Spirit's voice; in a world that trys to drown it out. Prayer is abiding. Prayer gives us strength for the journey. Prayer taps into the power of the Holy Spirit. He is there all the time, but it is like plugging into our source of strength, power, wisdom, discernment, love... Prayer is where our Spirit cries out "Abba!" "Father!"
I believe the difference that the O.V. offers is in the urgency of prayer. If you believe there is a divine blueprint, then prayer is really lipservice, because what will be - will be. But if you believe that prayer truly does make a difference - that is another matter. Things are not completely settled. They are partly settled - definitely. Prayer does not empower God. It empowers us to live the life He desires. It connects us in relationship with our power source.
I'm rambling, and probably being repetitive. Did that answer the question? What do you think?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
Prayer is relationship, first and foremost (I believe). Prayer is warfare (We battle not against flesh and blood...). Prayer calls upon all of the spiritual resources available to us. Prayer also encourages us to come aside, and listen to the Spirit's voice; in a world that trys to drown it out. Prayer is abiding. Prayer gives us strength for the journey. Prayer taps into the power of the Holy Spirit. He is there all the time, but it is like plugging into our source of strength, power, wisdom, discernment, love... Prayer is where our Spirit cries out "Abba!" "Father!"
I agree! Those are good thoughts, and good encouragement to pray.
quote:
Prayer does not empower God. It empowers us to live the life He desires. It connects us in relationship with our power source.
I agree that prayer changes us, and part of the purpose of prayer is to receive from him. But again, I don't see why this must require an open future, I think we can choose, and God can know how we will choose, and limit how we choose in some ways, and we can still have all these good benefits that you list...
Blessings,
Lee
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
I agree that prayer changes us, and part of the purpose of prayer is to receive from him. But again, I don't see why this must require an open future, I think we can choose, and God can know how we will choose, and limit how we choose in some ways, and we can still have all these good benefits that you list...
Blessings,
Lee
Lee, if the future is not partly open, then prayer would have no power to change the course of history. The future would already be settled, just as the past was. If God already knows exactly what we will choose, then are we really free to choose? What does free will mean then? I'm being sincere, not sarcastic here. If God limits how we choose, then we really do not have the freedom to choose other than what He wants, and we do not have free will the way the open view describes it. I do not believe we are coerced. I believe we are persuaded, influenced, drawn, compelled, directed, but it is up to us to listen to the Shepherd's voice, and to follow. We may choose otherwise, and that's what makes it a love relationship. Love must be free to love, or choose otherwise - or it is not love at all.
I do believe that He knows us intimately, that He knows what would speak to each of us, how we are best influenced/persuaded, what compels us, what tempts us, what brand of toothpaste we use  - but I still believe the choices are ours. The future is partly open. We will never thwart God's overarching purposes. He sealed our destiny when we chose Him. He is our righteousness. But He loves us too much to determine our choices for us. I really do believe that choice by choice I affect eternity - for better or worse; this is a covenant relationship I'm part of.
What do you think?
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/20/2004 2:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee, if the future is not partly open, then prayer would have no power to change the course of history. The future would already be settled, just as the past was. If God already knows exactly what we will choose, then are we really free to choose? What does free will mean then? I'm being sincere, not sarcastic here.
I guess i'll never quite understand why good folks think that just because God knows what we'll choose that means we don't have free will. If that wouldn't be true of us why would we insist and demand that it would be true of God? Again here I go im going to hit the time wrap drive...you and I go back in time...not God right now but we do....before we left however we know that Martha Stewart was sentenced to five month in jail...we go back now 10 years in time...question...just because we know the future does that mean that we [you and I] force Martha to do the thing they claimed she did? [when the time unfolds] Most certainly not. Does it mean that we forced the judge to give her the sentence he did? Of course not. So if this wouldn't be true of us why do we demand or insist that it must be true of God? I just don't get why people think this way. 
Mmm...maybe Martha Stewart didn't indeed do anything wrong so nobody for sure forced her to do something she didn't do 
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Sisters,
quote:
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
"Declaring" NOT "knowing", big difference. One is saying what He will do(future tense), the other saying what He "sees".
But then let's highlight "all" here, too. If God will do all he wants to do, then he is not guessing, nor will he be thwarted in his purposes.
"All" is a few hundred prophecies in scripture! Out of zillions of choices people make. Find that odd?
He hasn't really said much about the future and when He has it's often been vague. Where's the prophecies about who you marry? Where you shop? What car you drive? What movies you go to? What cemetary your family is buried in? The exchange rates of capital? What cars you drive in your life? Who wins the Words Series? Who wins the World Cup? Who wins the Stanley Cup? When will Lance Armstrong quit winning the Tour de France?
Where's the prophecy about the 1969 Mets?
If you compared the few hundred prophecies in scripture to the zillions of events that have happened in history and will happen in the future, you'd see how quiet God is on the future.
He says He will have a remnant, billions of people will make choices about that, He's silent on those.
He says Christ will have a bride, billions of people will make choices about that, He's silent on those.
He says many will turn away, He doesn't name them.
He says Jesus will ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, He says nothing about the zillions of other rides the billions of us have taken and will take. When the time comes, a donkey is procured "in order that the prophecy might be fulfilled".
Examining scripture, a case could be made that God knew a few hundred future events AND THAT'S IT.
So where's the "exhaustive foreknowledge" verses?
quote:
Here are a few! God says "surely" and "certainly," thus he must know, and not be estimating, where his prophecies concern human choices:
Hebrews 6:14 "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."
generic, vague
Lee, surely I will bless you and you will increase.
quote:
Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...
generic, predictable
Lee, many bad people will be born in the world next year.
quote:
Joshua 3:10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.
God is telling Joshua what God is going to do.
Lee, tomorrow I will wear white socks.
quote:
Jeremiah 32:4 Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes.
God is telling what God is going to do.
Lee, tomorrow I will eat Cheerios.
Isaish 5:2 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
God expected good grapes but got bad grapes instead. Because He didn't get what He expected, He's going to remove the hedge from the vineyard.
In Ezekial 26, God says Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon would scrape the island city of Tyre clean. Nebuchadnezzar failed. Tyre remained until Alexander the Great did it. It took some time, it took a backup plan, but God finally got the island city of Tyre scraped clean.
This shows, NOT a God passively viewing an already completed future, but a God who is actively working in history and HAS to be dynamic and resourceful to accomplish His goals BECAUSE He's using fallible human beings.
Look, I'm wearing white socks today AND I had Cheerios (I'd predicted both yesterday), thus I MUST HAVE EXHAUSTIVE FORE-KNOWLEGE OF ALL THE FUTURE.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 3:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee, look at the 10 commandments. Why only 10, why not a meticulous, specific list of every sin we could possibly ever commit?
Why just "thou shall not steal"? Why not:
Thou shall not download copyrighted songs via the internet and kazaa
Thou shall not download copyrighted songs via the internet and napster
Thou shall not take paperclips from your office for home use
Thou shall not take pens from your office for home use
Thou shall not take pencil leads from your office for home use
.
.
.
The specific 'thou shall nots' are infinite. (O.K., infinite minus a constant  )
God gave a loose framework, not a meticulous list.
Same goes for prophecy. Much of it is vague and generic, much of it is Him saying what He's going to do, much of it is fulfilled after the fact "in order that".... some of it doesn't happen as it was stated (Jonah, Tyre)
That's because the future hasn't happened yet, God is loosely moving His people towards the conclusion, as they war against a very real enemy. There is much freedom within God's framework and all are responsible for their participation or lack thereof.
God looked at the nation of Egypt, how it had enslaved people for thousands of years, and knew His people would eventually be slaves after He had sent them down there and subsequent Pharoahs would arise who hadn't known Joseph? How DID He know that?
God hardened Pharoah's heart? You bet, I can harden my cat's heart, as well, by teasing it. I know how it will respond to my teasing.
Would God know Pharoah's heart and history of brutally enslaving people and be able to know how Pharoah would respond to His teasing?
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him? You bet, He knew Peter's heart. He knew the thousands that had seen them together and He knew the mood and thoughts of the crowd. Three times? Yeah, a rooster had to be poked in time to prevent lots more questioning.
God knew Nebuchadnezzar would scrape Tyre clean? But Nebuchadnezzar failed. Alexander, unnamed in the prophecy, later did that.
God expected good grapes in His vineyard? But He got bad grapes instead.
Yet three days and Nineveh would be overthrown? Except it wasn't.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Sisters of Cain's prophecies of the "coming days":
1. people will multiply
2. sin will increase
3. unwed teenage girls will get pregnant
4. nations will rise
5. nations will fall
6. it will rain somewhere
7. a boy will be born and named "Jun"
8. a girl will be born and named "Krystal" with a "K"
9. white socks will be worn
10. my cat will eat really fast and vomit in the basement
11. my daughter will watch the "Amanda Show"
The future has already happened and I have exhaustive foreknowlege of it?
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/20/2004 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would God know Pharoah's heart and history of brutally enslaving people and be able to know how Pharoah would respond to His teasing?
The Bible saysthat God knew Pharoah would harden his heart. I guess the position taken here by OT is that by the law of probablity knowing characters like he does that he knew what Pharoah would do. You're not basing it on God knowing the end from the beginning even before people were born. One problem Ihave with the open theism view however is that when you come over to say Abraham, God does not know his character. He states about Abraham now I know he loves me [or words to that effect]It doesn't seem consistent to me. I would suggest a revelation connecting back to God to the past cause God 'to know'the end from the beginning. You know the score folks. It's what I call the Alpha/Omega Factor Have A Nice Day | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
... if the future is not partly open, then prayer would have no power to change the course of history.
Why not, if God knows how his children will choose, and puts that in as part of his plan?
quote:
The future would already be settled, just as the past was. If God already knows exactly what we will choose, then are we really free to choose? What does free will mean then?
I believe God can freely choose, though he knows what he will choose! So I will let him explain how this works. 
quote:
If God limits how we choose, then we really do not have the freedom to choose other than what He wants, and we do not have free will the way the open view describes it.
But God limits free will in the OV, too.
quote:
Love must be free to love, or choose otherwise - or it is not love at all.
How about people in heaven, then? I think they can choose how they love God, but they can't choose not to love him, any more than Jesus could choose not to love the Father.
quote:
But He loves us too much to determine our choices for us.
I agree! I think believers can make real choices:
John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
Sisters: "Declaring" NOT "knowing"...
Lee: But then let's highlight "all" here, too.
Sisters: "All" is a few hundred prophecies in scripture! Out of zillions of choices people make. Find that odd?
No "all" means "all God's desires," not just all his prophecies. But how can God fulfill all his desires, if he has to guess, to accomplish his purposes, and if he may be mistaken? Thus this is more than just declaring, God knows the outcome here, and will not fail.
quote:
He says He will have a remnant, billions of people will make choices about that, He's silent on those.
Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved...
quote:
Examining scripture, a case could be made that God knew a few hundred future events AND THAT'S IT.
How about the kingdoms of the earth that would succeed Babylon? That overarches all of human history. And the prophecy that Jerusalem would always be inhabited, that involves more than hundreds of events, that involves continual events, for thousands of years.
quote:
So where's the "exhaustive foreknowledge" verses?
God is said to know all things, now God's predictions I think come under "all things that God knows," if he says "certainly" or "surely." Thus God can know the future, really know it, even where it involves human choices, how can this be true, if God cannot know our choices in advance? I think the conclusion must be that God does really know the future, he even knows how people would have chosen, in circumstances that never happened:
Matthew 11:21 If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Jesus doesn't say they probably would have repented!
quote:
Hebrews 6:14 "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."
generic, vague
Lee, surely I will bless you and you will increase.
Great! How did you take into account my future choices? I might run off the nearest cliff tomorrow, and I don't have any children.
quote:
Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...
... many bad people will be born in the world next year.
Yes, but this is "you will," not "somebody somewhere will." This is predicting their future choices, and with certainty, thus it's not guessing.
quote:
Jeremiah 32:4 Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes.
God is telling what God is going to do.
What if the king of Babylon decided he didn't want to see Zedekiah? Or he might decide to give him the silent treatment...
quote:
Isaish 5:2 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
God expected good grapes but got bad grapes instead.
I think we have to pick a different word than "expected" here. "I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly..." And God is not asking for advice on gardening! He says what more he is going to do, too, and I think the point here is that good fruit from people does not come from unvarying pleasant circumstances:
John 12:24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
quote:
In Ezekial 26, God says Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon would scrape the island city of Tyre clean. Nebuchadnezzar failed. Tyre remained until Alexander the Great did it. It took some time, it took a backup plan, but God finally got the island city of Tyre scraped clean.
Ezekiel 26:3-4 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
Many nations refers to more than one nation! Thus if two nations were required, this fulfills the prophecy.
quote:
God gave a loose framework [of commands], not a meticulous list. Same goes for prophecy. Much of it is vague and generic...
I agree that prophecies don't give all the details. But those details they do give, will be fulfilled, where the prophecy is not conditional.
quote:
...some of it doesn't happen as it was stated (Jonah, Tyre) That's because the future hasn't happened yet, God is loosely moving His people towards the conclusion ...
But Nineveh was overthrown! By repentance, and not by destruction. And we covered Tyre above...
quote:
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him? You bet, He knew Peter's heart.
Yes, but this prophecy requires a balance of courage (to follow) and cowardice (to deny him). How could Jesus predict this balance would turn out this way? This is predicting a battle in Peter's heart, that would turn out partly one way, and partly another, not just simple denial. And that Peter would return, too! And that the high priest doorkeeper would let him in, and that Peter would stick it out for three questions, never mind the rooster.
quote:
Sisters of Cain's prophecies of the "coming days":
1. people will multiply
2. sin will increase
Let's match up with God's prophecies, though:
"I will multiply Abraham."
"You Israelites will quickly turn away."
I have more, too!
Jeremiah 38:3 Thus says the Lord: "This city shall surely be given into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon and be taken."
Amos 5:5 "... for Gilgal shall surely go into exile, and Bethel shall come to nothing."
Matthew 24:2 Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 4:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Let's match up with God's prophecies, though:
"I will multiply Abraham."
"You Israelites will quickly turn away."
LOL
I will multiply Abraham
I will multiply Shaquille O'Neal
Russians will turn away
Americans will turn away
No, those aren't vague and general.
Of course, "I will" is future tense and intentional....
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/21/2004 9:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Lee, if the future is not partly open, then prayer would have no power to change the course of history. The future would already be settled, just as the past was. If God already knows exactly what we will choose, then are we really free to choose? What does free will mean then? I'm being sincere, not sarcastic here.
I guess i'll never quite understand why good folks think that just because God knows what we'll choose that means we don't have free will. If that wouldn't be true of us why would we insist and demand that it would be true of God? Again here I go im going to hit the time wrap drive...you and I go back in time...not God right now but we do....before we left however we know that Martha Stewart was sentenced to five month in jail...we go back now 10 years in time...question...just because we know the future does that mean that we [you and I] force Martha to do the thing they claimed she did? [when the time unfolds] Most certainly not. Does it mean that we forced the judge to give her the sentence he did? Of course not. So if this wouldn't be true of us why do we demand or insist that it must be true of God? I just don't get why people think this way.
Mmm...maybe Martha Stewart didn't indeed do anything wrong so nobody for sure forced her to do something she didn't do
Bobber,
I've only started exploring this view a little over 2 years ago. Before that I believed exactly as you did, but now it doesn't make as much sense to me. It leaves me with so many questions: If God already knows what will happen in the future, then why pray? What difference do our prayers really make? I never understood that before this view. Now I understand that some things are indeed settled, while other things are open and depend on our choices, our response to Him, our prayers, the free will of human and other agents and the complexity of creation.
Another question is about evil: If God knew the day before four nazi soldiers walked into Zosia's home (the little Jewish girl), that they would gauge her eyes out, laughing while she screamed and her mother fought and screamed - AND, He is able to intervene, being all knowing and all powerful - why did He not do something? The answer is that we have free will, and He doesn't revoke that, and the decision to do that seemed to be a spontaneous one on their parts. It was an idea that they got when they went into the home. God knew they were capable of great evil. I do not doubt that. I cannot believe that God knows the nightmarish evil that is going to befall His children, and that He does not step in. Why pray? According to scripture, our prayers can definitely alter the future, so it cannot be known completely ahead of time. Part of it must be open, depending on what we choose to do, and how the Father responds to those choices...etc.
That makes sense to me. That makes me feel that praying is more urgent. Prayer affects change. And, my choices affect eternity. We are in a spiritual battle.
I hope I understood your post, and did not get carried away here too much. It's late, and I'm pretty tired, so will quit while I may have contributed something useful!
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/21/2004 9:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Lee, look at the 10 commandments. Why only 10, why not a meticulous, specific list of every sin we could possibly ever commit?
Why just "thou shall not steal"? Why not:
Thou shall not download copyrighted songs via the internet and kazaa
Thou shall not download copyrighted songs via the internet and napster
Thou shall not take paperclips from your office for home use
Thou shall not take pens from your office for home use
Thou shall not take pencil leads from your office for home use
.
.
.
The specific 'thou shall nots' are infinite. (O.K., infinite minus a constant )
God gave a loose framework, not a meticulous list.
Same goes for prophecy. Much of it is vague and generic, much of it is Him saying what He's going to do, much of it is fulfilled after the fact "in order that".... some of it doesn't happen as it was stated (Jonah, Tyre)
That's because the future hasn't happened yet, God is loosely moving His people towards the conclusion, as they war against a very real enemy. There is much freedom within God's framework and all are responsible for their participation or lack thereof.
God looked at the nation of Egypt, how it had enslaved people for thousands of years, and knew His people would eventually be slaves after He had sent them down there and subsequent Pharoahs would arise who hadn't known Joseph? How DID He know that?
God hardened Pharoah's heart? You bet, I can harden my cat's heart, as well, by teasing it. I know how it will respond to my teasing.
Would God know Pharoah's heart and history of brutally enslaving people and be able to know how Pharoah would respond to His teasing?
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him? You bet, He knew Peter's heart. He knew the thousands that had seen them together and He knew the mood and thoughts of the crowd. Three times? Yeah, a rooster had to be poked in time to prevent lots more questioning.
God knew Nebuchadnezzar would scrape Tyre clean? But Nebuchadnezzar failed. Alexander, unnamed in the prophecy, later did that.
God expected good grapes in His vineyard? But He got bad grapes instead.
Yet three days and Nineveh would be overthrown? Except it wasn't.
Sisters,
I really appreciate your insights in these posts. They are helpful; affirming actually.
Interesting what you say about prophecy. At times believers have prophecy spoken to them, and I believe it is primarily God's way of saying, "Do not fear. I'm here. Keep up the good fight." Sometimes it is more specific about what could happen. I know that when God says what God will do, that is a different form of prophecy; you can count on it. But, when prophecy is given to us, it depends on our response to God, on the response of others, on the complexity of creation..." My husband and I had a very encouraging prophecy. In it were some specifics that only God knew, and that was confirming. There was also part of it that didn't make any sense at all to us, and didn't come to pass; but I appreciate the person who shared, and most of all the comfort, and reassurance that God gave us through that person.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Sisters,
I really appreciate your insights in these posts. They are helpful; affirming actually.
Interesting what you say about prophecy. At times believers have prophecy spoken to them, and I believe it is primarily God's way of saying, "Do not fear. I'm here. Keep up the good fight." Sometimes it is more specific about what could happen. I know that when God says what God will do, that is a different form of prophecy; you can count on it. But, when prophecy is given to us, it depends on our response to God, on the response of others, on the complexity of creation..." My husband and I had a very encouraging prophecy. In it were some specifics that only God knew, and that was confirming. There was also part of it that didn't make any sense at all to us, and didn't come to pass; but I appreciate the person who shared, and most of all the comfort, and reassurance that God gave us through that person.
Thanks. Yeah, I've heard of some prophecy given in church, it was usually of the "thou shalt be like an arrow shot out" form. That God spoke to you seems to be the real benefit.
Of course there's the other kind of prophecy, a guy handed me a piece of paper twenty three years ago stating the prophecy that my fiancee was to be his wife according to this fellow and God. Well, she and I "disobeyed God" and have been happily married for 22 1/2 years. Christianity does draw the nutters as well.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/22/2004 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
Why pray? According to scripture, our prayers can definitely alter the future...
I'm not sure that's a verse, though!
quote:
At times believers have prophecy spoken to them, and I believe it is primarily God's way of saying, "Do not fear. I'm here. Keep up the good fight." Sometimes it is more specific about what could happen.
But that's not a prophecy, though. And if it's mistaken, it's not very encouraging, either. And I know what could happen, God doesn't need to tell me that very often, nor is that very encouraging, in and of itself.
I see I have been mistaken about "Sisters of Cain"s gender! My apology, I shall abbreviate as SOC from now on, meaning the socks you predict you will wear , or maybe you could tell us your first name?
Blessings,
Lee
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/22/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
Why pray? According to scripture, our prayers can definitely alter the future...
I'm not sure that's a verse, though!
quote:
At times believers have prophecy spoken to them, and I believe it is primarily God's way of saying, "Do not fear. I'm here. Keep up the good fight." Sometimes it is more specific about what could happen.
But that's not a prophecy, though. And if it's mistaken, it's not very encouraging, either. And I know what could happen, God doesn't need to tell me that very often, nor is that very encouraging, in and of itself.
I see I have been mistaken about "Sisters of Cain"s gender! My apology, I shall abbreviate as SOC from now on, meaning the socks you predict you will wear , or maybe you could tell us your first name?
Blessings,
Lee
Lee,
Thank you for challenging me. I guess I base the effectiveness of intercessory prayer primarily on "The prayers of a righteous man (woman, child) availeth much." I know there are many more.
I know that prophecy is primarily encouraging, consoling and upbuilding the body of Christ, and that does not mean it is prophetic. I've received prophetic words from folks (a few of them) who've never met me, and I don't believe that it has to be 100 % right to be encouraging. We are still flesh and blood, and sometimes peoples' own thoughts/perceptions/impressions get mingled in with what the spirit is saying. I do believe that a prophetic word still depends on what choices we make as believers.
But, I confess, my knowledge of the prophetic is very limited. I know more about prophecy in terms of encouragement, upbuilding, and consoling.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/23/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
I guess I base the effectiveness of intercessory prayer primarily on "The prayers of a righteous man (woman, child) availeth much."
I agree! I believe God's children can really choose, and thus their prayers have an effect on the outcome. Which God knows! That's where we differ...
quote:
We are still flesh and blood, and sometimes peoples' own thoughts/perceptions/impressions get mingled in with what the spirit is saying. I do believe that a prophetic word still depends on what choices we make as believers.
Certainly some prophecies are conditional, and we don't hear God perfectly, but I think it's fine to speak what we hear, if we don't preface it "This is what the Lord is saying!"
When God does give his definite word, though, we can depend on it, that is what I believe. If it's conditional, and we fulfill the condition, then "You said it, now you must do it!" (Corrie ten Boom). "And he likes it!" she added...
Blessings,
Lee
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/23/2004 10:18 PM (GMT -6) | |
(Lee) I agree! I believe God's children can really choose, and thus their prayers have an effect on the outcome. Which God knows! That's where we differ...
(Jo-Anne) How can we REALLY have an opportunity to affect things through prayer, if God already knows what will happen, and - He relates to us temporally? If that were true, what would it mean that we battle against powers and principalities? Why would Jesus need to pray for us? Why did He pray for us before He died? What about all the scriptures that show the Father being disappointed, grieved, etc. etc?
(Lee) Certainly some prophecies are conditional, and we don't hear God perfectly, but I think it's fine to speak what we hear, if we don't preface it "This is what the Lord is saying!"
(Jo-Anne) (I agree. It is a flashing yellow light to me when people do that).
(Lee) When God does give his definite word, though, we can depend on it, that is what I believe. If it's conditional, and we fulfill the condition, then "You said it, now you must do it!" (Corrie ten Boom). "And he likes it!" she added...
(Jo-Anne) I loved reading "The Hiding Place"
God Bless you too,
Jo-Anne (a sister and "fellow" saboteur)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/24/2004 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
Lee: I believe God's children can really choose, and thus their prayers have an effect on the outcome. Which God knows! That's where we differ...
(Jo-Anne) How can we REALLY have an opportunity to affect things through prayer, if God already knows what will happen, and - He relates to us temporally? If that were true, what would it mean that we battle against powers and principalities? Why would Jesus need to pray for us? Why did He pray for us before He died? What about all the scriptures that show the Father being disappointed, grieved, etc. etc?
Lots of questions! I'll try some answers. For your first question, don't parents do plan ahead? "Billy will want to swim when we're in Florida, so I'll pack the sunscreen." Now Billy's choice can be a real choice, and so can the plan being made, that includes it. As far as your second question, we know the ultimate outcome of the battle! Even according to the OV. But that doesn't make the struggle pointless. Why does Jesus pray for us, and why did he pray for us? Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, that your faith will not fail." But then he also added, "when you turn back..." Thus he knew the outcome, I think! And yet he prayed. Like with Daniel, when he learned that the seventy years were almost up, in Dan. 9. He prayed! Even though God said it would happen. John prayed "Come, Lord Jesus!" Though he knew he was coming. We are to pray "Your kingdom come!" Though it most certainly will.
God wants us involved! And I think Daniel wanted to be involved too, and Jesus was in relationship with the Father, and his prayer was part of carrying out God's plan. And in other instances, where we don't know God's will, we have room to choose, too.
But even when we know God's will, we can still participate...
About the Scriptures that show God being disappointed, if God can be disappointed, then we can too, if we trust in him, in his strength and wisdom. But that's not Scriptural!
PS 22:5 They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
So we have to take the verses that might describe God being disappointed in another way. I have tried to address these verses here! Glad to discuss them some more. About God being grieved, yes sin causes God pain, but he does put even sinful actions in his plan, even then:
AC 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
quote:
Lee: Certainly some prophecies are conditional, and we don't hear God perfectly, but I think it's fine to speak what we hear, if we don't preface it "This is what the Lord is saying!"
(Jo-Anne) (I agree. It is a flashing yellow light to me when people do that).
Glad to agree! I proceed similarly with people who call themselves "healers" or even "faith healers," I think that's reason enough to take your plate to another table, though I do believe in healing, and gifts of healing given to people (note the plural! God doesn't put healing power in peoples' hands, I think).
quote:
Lee: If it's conditional, and we fulfill the condition, then "You said it, now you must do it!" (Corrie ten Boom). "And he likes it!" she added...
(Jo-Anne) I loved reading "The Hiding Place"
'Tis a good book! You can listen to Corrie telling her story, and telling this quote(!), on sermonindex.net...
Blessings,
Lee
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/25/2004 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
Lee: I believe God's children can really choose, and thus their prayers have an effect on the outcome. Which God knows! That's where we differ...
(Jo-Anne) How can we REALLY have an opportunity to affect things through prayer, if God already knows what will happen, and - He relates to us temporally? If that were true, what would it mean that we battle against powers and principalities? Why would Jesus need to pray for us? Why did He pray for us before He died? What about all the scriptures that show the Father being disappointed, grieved, etc. etc?
Lots of questions! I'll try some answers. For your first question, don't parents do plan ahead? "Billy will want to swim when we're in Florida, so I'll pack the sunscreen." Now Billy's choice can be a real choice, and so can the plan being made, that includes it. As far as your second question, we know the ultimate outcome of the battle! Even according to the OV. But that doesn't make the struggle pointless. Why does Jesus pray for us, and why did he pray for us? Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, that your faith will not fail." But then he also added, "when you turn back..." Thus he knew the outcome, I think! And yet he prayed. Like with Daniel, when he learned that the seventy years were almost up, in Dan. 9. He prayed! Even though God said it would happen. John prayed "Come, Lord Jesus!" Though he knew he was coming. We are to pray "Your kingdom come!" Though it most certainly will.
God wants us involved! And I think Daniel wanted to be involved too, and Jesus was in relationship with the Father, and his prayer was part of carrying out God's plan. And in other instances, where we don't know God's will, we have room to choose, too.
But even when we know God's will, we can still participate...
About the Scriptures that show God being disappointed, if God can be disappointed, then we can too, if we trust in him, in his strength and wisdom. But that's not Scriptural!
PS 22:5 They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
So we have to take the verses that might describe God being disappointed in another way. I have tried to address these verses here! Glad to discuss them some more. About God being grieved, yes sin causes God pain, but he does put even sinful actions in his plan, even then:
AC 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
quote:
Lee: Certainly some prophecies are conditional, and we don't hear God perfectly, but I think it's fine to speak what we hear, if we don't preface it "This is what the Lord is saying!"
(Jo-Anne) (I agree. It is a flashing yellow light to me when people do that).
Glad to agree! I proceed similarly with people who call themselves "healers" or even "faith healers," I think that's reason enough to take your plate to another table, though I do believe in healing, and gifts of healing given to people (note the plural! God doesn't put healing power in peoples' hands, I think).
quote:
Lee: If it's conditional, and we fulfill the condition, then "You said it, now you must do it!" (Corrie ten Boom). "And he likes it!" she added...
(Jo-Anne) I loved reading "The Hiding Place"
'Tis a good book! You can listen to Corrie telling her story, and telling this quote(!), on sermonindex.net...
Blessings,
Lee
I take it your not an open theist .
I guess I just don't understand what you're saying, yet anyway. It doesn't make sense to me, that God can know and even plan toward every detail of our life, exhaustively, but that we still have a choice. The two just don't jive  .
It's easy for God to predict we will fall away. We all do it. In fact, we can't keep from doing it! Thank goodnes our righteousness does not depend on what we do, or don't do.
I'm exhausted...I'm probably not making a whole lotta sense, so I will do the smart thing now....zzzzzzzzz
"nite (God Bless)
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/26/2004 2:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I guess I just don't understand what you're saying, yet anyway. It doesn't make sense to me, that God can know and even plan toward every detail of our life, exhaustively, but that we still have a choice. The two just don't jive .
And it never will make sense. 
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