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AbuGian
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 7/18/2004 6:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | An analogy.
Say, I am a billiards wizzard and that I can precisely predict which ball will hit what ball and which pocket will some balls fall. I will cause the initial push but the chain reaction that will follow will be caused by balls themselves bumping each other in combination with the balls bumping the side walls of the billiards table.
Say, I only declare that ball 12 will be the last ball to fall on the right corner pocket, as I predict it, will I be the direct cause of its fall? Nope. Will I be the ultimate cause of its fall? Yes. (For having initiated the push.)
Now, what do you suppose led me to know precisely which ball will hit what balls and which ball will fall in which pocket? My knowledge of the physics of the billiards, the properties of each elements (the balls' weight, restitution, the force I will exert, the angle of my initial push, etc.) and of course me making sure no body will move or touch the table.
And so I made a push and everything happened exactly as I know it would although I only declared the outcome for ball 12. Although I only declared ball 12 will fall on right corner pocket, did that mean I didn't know exactly what will happen in detail? Nope.
Can I say I have just ordained a series of events that exactly happened as I predicted? Oh yes. I planned it. And I set the events on the billiards table in motion.
But the fall of ball 12 is the fall of a non living thing? So? I believe it's the same thing. Given certain conditions, based on our nature and inherrent desires and based on what will be our own past experiences, God precisely knows how each of us will decide and act and what all of us will collectively do. After all, unlike the billiards wizzard, God's understanding is INFINITE. As Psalms 147:5 puts it, "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is INFINITE."
And so even though God does not declare all things in the future, God knows exhausitively what things will happen in the future. As He said in Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
Now let me propose that this universe is just like a immeasurable billiards table where God made the initial push by creating the universe and everything in it. And that He will continue to add more push or intervention according to what he has planned to do so that all of it will come to pass. He created everything and so every property or attribute of his creation is laid bare before him, nothing that will happen will go unnoticed. And so, whatever push God makes is a calculated push and every effect as a reaction to each push is fully known to him. Once motion is set in place, future interventions will sustain it according to his blueprint.
But still God's righteousness is maintained even if he holds us directly responsible for each of our decisions and actions yet He remains to be the ultimate cause of everything (see also Romans 9:14, 20). That is why we find the Hebrew writers crediting him (ultimately) for putting a lying spirit (see 2 Chronicles 18:22) although it was the lying spirit themselves who direcly caused the deception (see 2 Chronicles 18:21). This is the Hebrew way of saying God is the ultimate cause of everything, even blindness and unbelief (see Isaiah 6:10; 42:18, 19; Matthew 15:14; Ephesians. 4:18).
Furthermore, even if God does not reveal or declare or publish all things that he knows and ordained to happen, it doesn't follow He doesn't know all things future. Isn't it is written that "God knows ALL THINGS" (1 John 3:20) -- take note that it does not say God can know all things. He knows it all, already.
Let me also add that it is also written that there are secret things that belong to God and that it is His prerogative whether He should reveal it or not for his intended purpose (Deuteronomy 29:29; Matthew 13:35), so, it doesn't mean if God chose not to reveal the secret things, it follows that he chose not to know all things exhaustively including future decisions of man as per the OVTheists.
With this analogy, we can therefore say that our free will choices are not direcly caused by God although He is the ultimate cause of it. And that our free will choices is defined by what we are, who we are, by what we want, by what we experienced and by what we know which is utterly laid bare before God even before he laid the foundation of the universe. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/18/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Say, I only declare that ball 12 will be the last ball to fall on the right corner pocket, as I predict it, will I be the direct cause of its fall? Nope. Will I be the ultimate cause of its fall? Yes. (For having initiated the push.)
Lets say that in this reply I am very insulting to you and sin. Am I the direct cause of the insult? Nope. Not according to your logic. First the thought is in my mind. Then I make my fingers type it. Then the keys send signals to my computer. Then the message is sent to the internet. Then the message is sent to your computer. Then your computer makes the corresponding light patterns. Then your eyes see the light. Then your brain makes sense of the pattern. Am I the ultimate cause of the insult? Yes. But according to you, that doesn't make me morally responsible for the insult. The fact is you can find steps in almost any action, but that doesn't get anyone off the hook morally. What you call ultimate cause I call responsible party. Look at David's killing of Uriah. All he did was set the balls in motion, but he was responsible for the outcome. quote:
With this analogy, we can therefore say that our free will choices are not direcly caused by God although He is the ultimate cause of it. And that our free will choices is defined by what we are, who we are, by what we want, by what we experienced and by what we know which is utterly laid bare before God even before he laid the foundation of the universe.
If God knows exactly what we will do, there is only one course of action we can take. We are only free to follow our destiny. That's not freedom. It's the opposite: fatalism.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 12:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God knows exactly what we will do, there is only one course of action we can take. We are only free to follow our destiny. That's not freedom. It's the opposite: fatalism. [Sahid]
I agree with you Sahid that if God shot the 12 ball to go into the pocket he is responsible for sinking the ball. Just because gravity dropped the ball ultimately to the bottom of the pocket means nothing. I agree with you there. But because God has knowledge of what took place before hand does not make him responsible. Lets say God created the pool table and put the balls with free will on the table and lets say the balls have intelligence and will and move whereever they will. If the 12 shoots itself or rolls itself in the pocket God is not resonsible. Even if God saw the choices [which knowledge came back to him from the future]he was still not resonsible for the ball making the choice. Well he was wrong to create the pool table then having come to the knowledge of what occured? I would say no. God still had a right to bring forth a family. God is clear guilt.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Ha...still fighting for it, eh? That's funny. 
I think any other explanation is sad 
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
No offense
No offense taken Sometimesisquint I can assure you that and have a nice day | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/18/2004 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
With this analogy, we can therefore say that our free will choices are not direcly caused by God although He is the ultimate cause of it. And that our free will choices is defined by what we are, who we are, by what we want, by what we experienced and by what we know which is utterly laid bare before God even before he laid the foundation of the universe.
Hi Abugian,
If I am understanding this the way you intended, then what do you do with all of the passages that speak of God's surprise, His longing, disappointment, and grief when His people choose other than what He desires for them; not to mention the many passages where His people repent (ie: Ninevah), and God changes His mind.
If we are not truly free to choose, then we are not free to love. If we are not free to love, then it is coerced, and love cannot be coerced.
He knows us intimately. He knows our character. He knows what we are most likely to do in any given situation. But we still have free will. He will lead the way; point the way, lovingly persuade us - but, ultimately, the final choice is ours to make. What appealed to me about the open view, is that the future is partly open and partly settled. God will accomplish His purposes. He will not coerce. His grace is compelling, but not irresistable. We're not pawns, or balls to be shot into a side pocket. It is the relationship that compells us to choose what He desires as best for our lives. We may choose otherwise, and He is disappointed. But I believe that He is always reaching out; like the Father who watched, longing for the prodigal son to return. He's there waiting; ready to robe us in His righteousness. The robe was always there, available to us. We just have to realize that it belongs to us, and wear it. Reminds me of the old Imperial's song that says, "I'm gonna live like a believer."
I played a game of pool with a teenage boy (a friend) after church today. Radical I know. We have a pool table in our church basement. I think Jesus would approve. It's all about relationship, after all.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/18/2004 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
Glad you're back!
quote:
Prayer and determinism don't mix either. If the "prayers of a righteous man (woman/child) availeth much," then the future must be partly open.
I don't think this is a necessary deduction, though. God can use my prayers, even if he plans them. But I think Scripture teaches that believers do have freedom, though God knows the future, too.
But how does an open future help in understanding prayer? What is the point of praying, according to the Open View? Are we trying to persuade God, or help him in some way, or give him information or advice? I don't understand prayer, in the Open View...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/18/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Jo-Anne,
Glad you're back!
quote:
Prayer and determinism don't mix either. If the "prayers of a righteous man (woman/child) availeth much," then the future must be partly open.
I don't think this is a necessary deduction, though. God can use my prayers, even if he plans them. But I think Scripture teaches that believers do have freedom, though God knows the future, too.
But how does an open future help in understanding prayer? What is the point of praying, according to the Open View? Are we trying to persuade God, or help him in some way, or give him information or advice? I don't understand prayer, in the Open View...
Blessings,
Lee
Thanks Lee. Honestly, this is where the board is challenging for me. I am still exploring the open view myself, though it makes the most sense to me; so I won't be a fence sitter. I'll take a stab at your question, though others could answer so much better than I can.
The verse about the prayers of the righteous... It is not just flowery language, or empty rhetoric, and that's all it would be (IMHO) if even our prayers were predetermined. Thinking that we have freedom (while unwittingly not having freedom), is not freedom at all. Did that make sense?
God chose to partner with us; and that is why the Word tells us that we "battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers..." That verse would mean little if there was no REAL battle. If there were a divine blueprint, then the battle is not real at all, and our prayers would be "lipservice" - not warfare.
If the future (and I believe it is) is partly open; then I have a great responsibility as a believer to engage in spiritual warfare; in prayer. My prayers make a difference. They don't always appear to make a difference, but the explanation of the O.V. is that we have free will (which God does not revoke), that non-human agents also have free will, and that we live in a complex creation. Answers to prayer appear arbitrary. In Daniel, chapter 10, the angelic messenger tells Daniel that he was prevented by coming to him, by the Prince of Persia (for 21 days) - a good reason why prayer is so important. We do not see the battle. We have such limited understanding of the forces at play all around us.
Prayer has an "If Then" quality to it..."If my people, who are called by my name, humble themselves and pray, then will I heal their land..." (sorry, I'm not checking references, and quoting precisely...I can if you like).
James 4:7 is the only promise that we can count on for sure as believers. But, we know that prayer is a command, and that God promises to respond to our prayers. If I believed that our prayers were "planned" by Him - that I would have trouble with His sincerity, and God is sincere. He doesn't trick us. We aren't playing a game. This is a battle that we are engaged in; with real enemies.
I think these are two of the reasons believers do not pray fervently (without ceasing): they do not believe that their prayers really make a difference (God is in control and "what will be, will be" - que sera, sera), and secondly that they have not experienced the transformational power of prayer.
I hope some of this makes sense to you. You can correct me, challenge me, etc. I'm definitely not a theologian Lee, but these are my thoughts thus far.
What do you think?
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2004 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Asher
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 7/18/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | AbuGian
"Now let me propose that this universe is just like a immeasurable billiards table where God made the initial push by creating the universe and everything in it. And that He will continue to add more push or intervention according to what he has planned to do so that all of it will come to pass. He created everything and so every property or attribute of his creation is laid bare before him, nothing that will happen will go unnoticed. And so, whatever push God makes is a calculated push and every effect as a reaction to each push is fully known to him. Once motion is set in place, future interventions will sustain it according to his blueprint."
Question? Given God's billiards genius, why must there even be "more push or intervention"? I see either a flaw in God's initial knowledge (if we're giving the billiards analogy a Calvinistic slant) or God actually responding to the free will directives of His creatures, which smacks of dreaded open theism.
If we posit no open theism and an omniscient God, then we are left with "an unblinking cosmic stare" or, if you will, the universe AND God as an elaborate wind up toy set to spinning with an initial "push" and all and everything flowing from that push.
Rob | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/18/2004 10:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Asher
AbuGian
"Now let me propose that this universe is just like a immeasurable billiards table where God made the initial push by creating the universe and everything in it. And that He will continue to add more push or intervention according to what he has planned to do so that all of it will come to pass. He created everything and so every property or attribute of his creation is laid bare before him, nothing that will happen will go unnoticed. And so, whatever push God makes is a calculated push and every effect as a reaction to each push is fully known to him. Once motion is set in place, future interventions will sustain it according to his blueprint."
Question? Given God's billiards genius, why must there even be "more push or intervention"? I see either a flaw in God's initial knowledge (if we're giving the billiards analogy a Calvinistic slant) or God actually responding to the free will directives of His creatures, which smacks of dreaded open theism.
If we posit no open theism and an omniscient God, then we are left with "an unblinking cosmic stare" or, if you will, the universe AND God as an elaborate wind up toy set to spinning with an initial "push" and all and everything flowing from that push.
Rob
And, what would that say about our "personal" relationship with the Father?
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 2:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by AbuGian
But the fall of ball 12 is the fall of a non living thing? So? I believe it's the same thing.
You think humans are the same as billiard balls? That may be where your error starts.
Humans are made in the image of God. Do you picture God as a giant billiard ball? 
quote:
God's understanding is INFINITE. As Psalms 147:5 puts it, "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is INFINITE."
God's UNDERSTANDING is infinite. This says NOTHING about comprehensive KNOWLEGE of stuff that's never happened (the future).
Knowlege and understanding are different. Lots of people "know" E=MC2 but how many "understand" it?
quote:
And so even though God does not declare all things in the future, God knows exhausitively what things will happen in the future. As He said in Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
"Declaring" NOT "knowing", big difference. One is saying what He will do(future tense), the other saying what He "sees".
Note: "not yet done" and "shall" and "will do", all future tense verbs that speak of God's choice to actively do things WHEN THE TIME COMES. Those verbs don't speak of knowing the future but of what He will do in the future.
Look at Isaiah 48:3 as well
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
First, God declares what He will do,
Second, He ACTS! He DOES what He had earlier declared He would do.
So where's the "exhaustive foreknowlege" verses?
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Look at Isaiah 48:3 as well
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
No offence Sis but I believe we've got to take the whole word of God and not just a passage and build a doctrine over it, which I think that's what OT did with this verse and the other passages you quoted. No one that I know denies that God doesn't decide to cause some things to come to pass when it come to prophecies. Does that mean all propheices are things he himself caused to take place? I hardly think so. Like the Lord knowing Peter would deny him three times in a sense was a personal prophecy and we're to believe God caused Peter to deny the Lord? Then there is the soldiers at the foot of the cross gambling for the Lords garment. God caused people to gamble? I think the list can go on and on. So in my opinion God does know the future and that he does see the end from the beginning. [in the way that ive stated ] | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Isaiah 5
Parable of the Vineyard
1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2 He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
God expects the nine ball in the corner pocket, He scratches!
(the nine ball has free will  )
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 5:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!"
God wants to rack the balls up, they refuse. (billiard balls have free will)
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 5:18 AM (GMT -6) | | God deals with human billiard balls conditionally:
Jonah 3:
1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
2 "Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you."
3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days' walk.
4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
5 Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them.
6 When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes.
7 He issued a proclamation and it said, "In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water.
8 "But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands.
9 "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."
10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
as He laid out in Jeremiah 18:
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it."
I've never understood the robotic nature of calvinistic/islamic determinism, it certainly isn't in scripture nor is it evident in reality.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Luke 14:
15 When one of those who sat at table with him heard this, he said to him, "Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!"
16 But he said to him, "A man once gave a great banquet, and invited many;
17 and at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, `Come; for all is now ready.'
18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, `I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it; I pray you, have me excused.'
19 And another said, `I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them; I pray you, have me excused.'
20 And another said, `I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.'
21 So the servant came and reported this to his master. Then the householder in anger said to his servant, `Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and maimed and blind and lame.'
22 And the servant said, `Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.'
23 And the master said to the servant, `Go out to the highways and hedges, and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.'"
Billiard balls with invitations refuse to come to wedding, others invited in their stead.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 6:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Dennett describes the mechanical behavior of the digger wasp Sphex. This insect follows a series of genetically programmed steps in preparing for egg laying. If an experimenter interrupts one of these steps the wasp will repeat that step again. For an animal like a wasp, this process of repeating the same behavior can go on indefinitely, the wasp never seeming to notice what is going on. This is the type of mindless, pre-determined behavior that humans can avoid. Given the chance to repeat some futile behavior endlessly, people can notice the futility of doing so, and by an act of free will do something else. We can take this as an operational definition of what people mean by free will. Dennett points out the fact that as long as people see themselves as able to avoid futility, most people have seen enough of the free will issue.
From a biological perspective, what is the difference between the wasp and a person? The person can, through interaction with his/her environment, construct an internal mental model of the situation and figure out a successful behavioral strategy. The wasp, with a much smaller brain and different genetic program, does not learn from its environment and instead is trapped in an endless and futile behavioral loop that is strictly determined by its genetic program. It is in this sense of people as animals with complex brains that can model reality and appear to choose among several possible behaviors that Dennett says we have free will.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
The verse about the prayers of the righteous... It is not just flowery language, or empty rhetoric, and that's all it would be (IMHO) if even our prayers were predetermined. Thinking that we have freedom (while unwittingly not having freedom), is not freedom at all.
I agree, I do believe believers can choose! Thus there are some real choices to be made. But I also believe God is in control, and that we always choose within his will, and thus choose in our prayers within the bounds that he has set. So that is how I would interpret this as not being a rhetorical flourish.
quote:
God chose to partner with us...
I agree again! God could do it all, but he would rather have us help make the cake, even though it's a bit of a mess. God can use the mess, too!
quote:
That verse would mean little if there was no REAL battle.
I almost agree again, believers can choose, and thus win or lose, but still all is under God's control for good, and thus there is no meaningless evil or suffering.
quote:
If the future (and I believe it is) is partly open; then I have a great responsibility as a believer to engage in spiritual warfare; in prayer. My prayers make a difference.
I appreciate your perspective here, but I'm still not sure what the OV says prayer accomplishes. Are you saying that God waits until we pray before he will act? That is different than saying the future is open, I don't think one implies the other...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
"Declaring" NOT "knowing", big difference. One is saying what He will do(future tense), the other saying what He "sees".
But then let's highlight "all" here, too. If God will do all he wants to do, then he is not guessing, nor will he be thwarted in his purposes.
quote:
So where's the "exhaustive foreknowledge" verses?
Here are a few! God says "surely" and "certainly," thus he must know, and not be estimating, where his prophecies concern human choices:
Hebrews 6:14 "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."
Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...
Joshua 3:10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.
Jeremiah 32:4 Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes.
Jeremiah 38:3 Thus says the Lord: "This city shall surely be given into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon and be taken."
Amos 5:5 "... for Gilgal shall surely go into exile, and Bethel shall come to nothing."
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
quote:
Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!"
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."
quote:
as He laid out in Jeremiah 18 ...
"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it." (Jer. 18:7-8)
"Planned" could mean "devised", as in verse 11, "I am fashioning calamity." I think God does show his actual plan in the very next chapter, too:
JER 19:1-2 This is what the Lord says: "Go and buy a clay jar from a potter. Take along some of the elders of the people and of the priests and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate."
I think these references to a finished pot, and shattering it at the Potsherd Gate, are intentional, and refer to the analogy in chapter 18.
quote:
"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
But God is not asking for advice about gardening! And he doesn't wait for their answer, he says what more he is going to do: "I will take away its hedge, and it will be destroyed; I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled." I think this is saying to us that good fruit from people doesn't come from unvarying pleasant circumstances, suffering is needed:
Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace ...
quote:
Dennet: people can notice the futility of doing so, and by an act of free will do something else.
Jeremiah 18:12 But they will reply, "It's no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart."
Jeremiah is told how they would choose.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
And God says their choosing otherwise is impossible.
Blessings,
Lee
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