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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
TGB
05/02/01 12:49 PM
Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all-
Mephi’s recent post on omnipresence brought to mind a post from some time ago regarding Gen. 18.20-21, which states, “Then the LORD said, ‘Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry which has come to me; and if not, I will know.’ ” I think the poster’s question was why, if God is omnipresent, would he need to go down to see whether or not things were as bad as the “outcry” (whatever that is) which apparently formed the basis of God’s knowledge of the situation. Doc commented (roughly) that there is no reason to assume that, in a way perhaps unknown to us, God cannot choose to remove his presence from a place if he so wishes. (Is that boiling it down or what?)
I’d like to revisit Gen. 18.
First, on the classical approach to this passage: a) What does God intend to communicate by telling Abraham he is going down the check things out to know whether or not the situation is as bad as the outcry which has reached him? Is this simply another anthropomorphism which means the same thing every other anthropomorphism means? And b) What is the relationship of the “outcry” (which ostensibly forms the BASIS of God’s knowledge of what’s going on in Sodom and Gomorrah) to God’s omniscience?
Secondly, I’d like to suggest a possible OV take on this passage. It depends a little on one’s understanding of hell and the eternal destiny of Satan and his cohorts. More specifically, does God intend to be present throughout eternity in hell? Or is hell HELL at least partly because God’s not there? If God’s presence will not extend to hell itself, then we have a possible explanation of Gen. 18. Here goes:
Hell is characterized by the eternal and irrevocable fixed sinfulness of the will.
Hell is characterized by the total absence of God’s presence.
There is a link (which I’m just throwing out here) between the increased fixedness of the will in sin and God’s abiding presence. Greater sinfulness means the steady decrease in God’s presence. This is realized absolutely in Hell.
The residents of Sodom and Gomorrah “as a community” had become so steeped in sin that the exercise of their wills became irrevocably fixed. A kind of “hell on earth.” Whatever dynamics are at work between the increased sinful fixedness of the human will and God’s continued presence, Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of where this dynamic relationship peaked.
At some point, in an important sense of the word God chose not to be in Sodom and Gomorrah. Perhaps he assigned angels to check things out from time to time. This angelic “outcry” moved God to action. God investigates. The rest is history.
Dump at will!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
05/03/01 11:33 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom: personally I do not believe God is present everywhere, in that sense. I believe his power upholds everything, but I do not believe his presense is in all things, nor that his presense must be everywhere. This is actually a hard concept because God is spirit and we are not and how, precisely, would we define God's actual presense (I mean, if God were here, next to me, truly, would not that destroy me in my present state?). God's presense must be different than ours in so many ways to be almost inconceivable. Regardless, (and I know this is crude, but I believe it serves to make a point), I do not believe that went I take a dump, God is in the dump. I believe God's power is in all things in the sense of allowing all things to work in the way he created them to function. But his presense everywhere, in everything? I would have a problem with that.
As for hell, I believe it is not, ultimately a place of punishment, but of regret. And that will be the worse punishment of all. People who do not want God will find they have gotten their wish and it will be the worse thing imaginable. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/30/01 3:05 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I apologize for bringing this back to the front of the line friends. Usually when posts pass down the column uncommented on I take that as a clue. But I really wanted to get some further comment on this. If it goes down the line without notice, I'll flush it. Promise.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
adiaphora
(Community Owner)
05/30/01 3:10 PM
RE: RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom, I heard you were interested in a Christus Victor journal…could you send me an email so I can contact you?
Thanks, ~ a d i a p h o r a
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/30/01 10:55 PM
RE: RE: RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've made my email address in my preferences publically available for a few days. Let me know if you can't get it from that.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
glamdring777
05/30/01 11:12 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for saving this one Tom. I liked the other one about Jesus dying for us while we yet sinners too. God bless you for always typing scripture in. bonus.
On this one I think you are right on. I believe that there are places that are holy ground and that some real estate is being used by the enemy. I think over time the locations change depending on which way the front line is fluctuating.
Perhaps the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah came from righteous people who suffered in the hands of those cities.
glamdring
Message
TGB
05/02/01 12:49 PM
Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all-
Mephi’s recent post on omnipresence brought to mind a post from some time ago regarding Gen. 18.20-21, which states, “Then the LORD said, ‘Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry which has come to me; and if not, I will know.’ ” I think the poster’s question was why, if God is omnipresent, would he need to go down to see whether or not things were as bad as the “outcry” (whatever that is) which apparently formed the basis of God’s knowledge of the situation. Doc commented (roughly) that there is no reason to assume that, in a way perhaps unknown to us, God cannot choose to remove his presence from a place if he so wishes. (Is that boiling it down or what?)
I’d like to revisit Gen. 18.
First, on the classical approach to this passage: a) What does God intend to communicate by telling Abraham he is going down the check things out to know whether or not the situation is as bad as the outcry which has reached him? Is this simply another anthropomorphism which means the same thing every other anthropomorphism means? And b) What is the relationship of the “outcry” (which ostensibly forms the BASIS of God’s knowledge of what’s going on in Sodom and Gomorrah) to God’s omniscience?
Secondly, I’d like to suggest a possible OV take on this passage. It depends a little on one’s understanding of hell and the eternal destiny of Satan and his cohorts. More specifically, does God intend to be present throughout eternity in hell? Or is hell HELL at least partly because God’s not there? If God’s presence will not extend to hell itself, then we have a possible explanation of Gen. 18. Here goes:
Hell is characterized by the eternal and irrevocable fixed sinfulness of the will.
Hell is characterized by the total absence of God’s presence.
There is a link (which I’m just throwing out here) between the increased fixedness of the will in sin and God’s abiding presence. Greater sinfulness means the steady decrease in God’s presence. This is realized absolutely in Hell.
The residents of Sodom and Gomorrah “as a community” had become so steeped in sin that the exercise of their wills became irrevocably fixed. A kind of “hell on earth.” Whatever dynamics are at work between the increased sinful fixedness of the human will and God’s continued presence, Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of where this dynamic relationship peaked.
At some point, in an important sense of the word God chose not to be in Sodom and Gomorrah. Perhaps he assigned angels to check things out from time to time. This angelic “outcry” moved God to action. God investigates. The rest is history.
Dump at will!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
05/03/01 11:33 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom: personally I do not believe God is present everywhere, in that sense. I believe his power upholds everything, but I do not believe his presense is in all things, nor that his presense must be everywhere. This is actually a hard concept because God is spirit and we are not and how, precisely, would we define God's actual presense (I mean, if God were here, next to me, truly, would not that destroy me in my present state?). God's presense must be different than ours in so many ways to be almost inconceivable. Regardless, (and I know this is crude, but I believe it serves to make a point), I do not believe that went I take a dump, God is in the dump. I believe God's power is in all things in the sense of allowing all things to work in the way he created them to function. But his presense everywhere, in everything? I would have a problem with that.
As for hell, I believe it is not, ultimately a place of punishment, but of regret. And that will be the worse punishment of all. People who do not want God will find they have gotten their wish and it will be the worse thing imaginable. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/30/01 3:05 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I apologize for bringing this back to the front of the line friends. Usually when posts pass down the column uncommented on I take that as a clue. But I really wanted to get some further comment on this. If it goes down the line without notice, I'll flush it. Promise.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
adiaphora
(Community Owner)
05/30/01 3:10 PM
RE: RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom, I heard you were interested in a Christus Victor journal…could you send me an email so I can contact you?
Thanks, ~ a d i a p h o r a
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/30/01 10:55 PM
RE: RE: RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've made my email address in my preferences publically available for a few days. Let me know if you can't get it from that.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
glamdring777
05/30/01 11:12 PM
RE: Omnipresence and Genesis 18 Revisited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for saving this one Tom. I liked the other one about Jesus dying for us while we yet sinners too. God bless you for always typing scripture in. bonus.
On this one I think you are right on. I believe that there are places that are holy ground and that some real estate is being used by the enemy. I think over time the locations change depending on which way the front line is fluctuating.
Perhaps the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah came from righteous people who suffered in the hands of those cities.
glamdring
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