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stringman
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 8/14/2001 6:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | in reference to the OV's view of god testing people in order to learn about them..... For instance gen 22:12 when god tests abraham, shouldnt god know the present condition of abrahams heart and how he would react...... and if he only knew how abraham would react as a probablity, why would he not just find out for himself, he is god right? or does he not have the power to see how abraham would react?
im just trying to test the ov, and my view and opinion as much as possible, as im sure you all agree, deciding where you stand on an issue like this is important. Thanks for all your input.
scott
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/15/2001 2:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome to the board stringman!
I'd encourage you to go to the thread "On Genesis 9 and 18" in the "Theological Questions" category (I believe its there). Around the third or fourth page we begin discussing the "testing" material in the Bible. It's a very interesting thread, and I think it would address your question.
But I'll say a brief word here. Scripture repeatedly says God tests people "to know" what is in their heart. Many times Scripture specifies that this means God tests people "to find out what they will do"
For example, Moses tells the Isaelites, God is "testing you to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commandments" (Deut. 8:2), and elsewhere, "to know whether you indeed love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul(Deut. 13:1–3).
On this basis it seems clear that what agents will do is, at least sometimes, NOT RESOLVED before God tests them -- which, according to Scripture, is WHY God tests them.
Hence, since God says after Abraham's test, "NOW I know... SINCE you have not withheld your son," it seems clear that God did NOT know with certainty ahead of time HOW Abraham would respond. God knows perfectly how each agent MIGHT respond, and perfectly anticipates the response either way. But the decision is not actual till it is made. God knows reality perfectly. But passages like this tell us that part of the reality God knows perfectly consists of POSSIBILITIES, not actualities.
Hope this helps. Check out the other threads, especially the one referred to above.
Blessings
Doc
"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." C.S.Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 8/15/2001 2:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc:
Scripture repeatedly says God tests people "to know" what is in their heart. Many times Scripture specifies that this means God tests people "to find out what they will do"
I recently had a 'testing' experience in my life. Thought I'd share...
If you would have asked me a month ago if I thought that I rely on God, I'd have answered, "Yes, of course" . On a trip to Africa as part of a ministry team it became quite evident to me that I have a tendency to think I can ( with god's help ) handle anything. As we began to minister I quickly came to know that my dependance was not on God, but on my ability handle things. In the face of the overwhelming poverty and the peoples simple faith in God I found that I had nothing to offer them. I had little money or supplies and their faith in God was so great that even the love of Jesus I thought I could share became small in the face of their richness of faith.
I failed the test in the sense that God showed me how lacking I am in relying on Him. I guess that God was sure of the outcome ( I can look back and see the evidence God saw all along ) , but it certainly opened my eyes.
"In Him" has a little more meaning to me now.
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PHD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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stringman
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 8/15/2001 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | But what about 1 chron 28:9 "......for the lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts...."
i am trying to see the OV from every aspect that i can, and even more now that i have talked to people at my church about it. My church is part of the general baptist conference, and apparantly the gbc was near adopting the OV as their theistic view. Our head pastor was present at the meeting, and was going to pull our church out of the gbc if they were to adopt the OV. Obviously this is an important issue and i would like to see it from all angles. Thanks for your input.
scott
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 8/25/2001 9:02 PM (GMT -6) | | stringman,
Here’s the whole verse. It doesn’t say God knows your future thoughts. Further, everything that David said in his life was not gospel truth. But I do think that he is representing what God does know. 1 Chr 28:9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.”
When God is represented by David in this way: “for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts.”, we Open View Theists agree that God “searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts.”, but that doesn’t mean He knows your future intents of your thoughts, especially when it may be a close call. God wanted Abraham to pass, but remember, Abraham had failed a number of times earlier. Here’s one where Abraham passed. Gen 22:9-14 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of The Lord it shall be provided.”
For my response to John Piper’s critique of Open Theism and my critique of DeWaay's answer to Doc Boyd, look at the articles on biblicalanswers.com. I have a number of articles that address this issue.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 08/26/2001 02:05:13 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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