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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Crowe150
04/27/01 3:50 AM
What good is prayer?
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I have a question regarding the usefulness of prayer when in a 'bind', so to speak. I'll give a hypothetical situation, then give an opinion on it (based on a Calvinistic understanding, which is all I have been exposed to all my life, so this whole OV thing is fascinating to me). I'd appreciate some responses as to whether my opinion is a good take on the situation or not.
Okay, here goes:
Suppose you are sitting on your porch one day, and your dog is playing in the road. Suddenly, a car screeches around the corner out of nowhere, and is heading directly towards your dog. There is no way you'll be able to get to your doggie in time to save him, and the driver of the car is obviously not paying attention, so you immediately pray to God to save your beloved pet.
If God knows all, what is transpiring here must be a part of his plan. Since he knows all, he also must know how his plan will work out. Nobody can stop God from carrying out his divine will, which is either to a) have your dog die or b) have your dog live.
You don't know if God's plan includes letting the dog live or taking him from you. But is has to be one of the two - and God, unlike you, knows what will happen, and no matter what happens, it will be right, since it is part of God's perfect, divine will. So all you can do is guess as to whether God intends your dog to live or die.
So why pray? If God is planning for your dog's life to end, then any reason you have for God sparing his life will be inferior to God's divine reasoning. If God is planning for your Dog to survive, then any prayer on your part will be redundant.
So wouldn't any prayer to save your dog's life in this situation either be arrogant (thinking that your judgement of whether or not doggie should die is somehow BETTER than God's judgement) OR redundant(God isn't planning on taking doggie from you and you'll soon see this).
Obviously, if the open view (and you could also throw in Boyd's spiritual warfare theory) is correct the question changes its meaning entirely- what effect does prayer have? Will God, based on your prayer, possibly decide to get your dog out of the road? What good is prayer in that situation?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
Crowe
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
04/27/01 5:06 AM
Yeah...What Good IS Prayer?
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Hello, Crowe. Welcome.
STUDY BREAK!! First some things on the Calvinist take.
If God knows all, what is transpiring here must be a part of his plan. Since he knows all, he also must know how his plan will work out. Nobody can stop God from carrying out his divine will, which is either to a) have your dog die or b) have your dog live.
Meph:
So far, so good.
*************************
You don't know if God's plan includes letting the dog live or taking him from you. But is has to be one of the two - and God, unlike you, knows what will happen, and no matter what happens, it will be right, since it is part of God's perfect, divine will. So all you can do is guess as to whether God intends your dog to live or die.
Meph:
WARNING! WARNING! Unwarranted FATALISM alert! This is what you are, in essence, saying.
Because everything that is willed by God WILL happen, that NECESSARILY means that nothing you do will fundamentally matter. All you can do is try to guess God's will and go with it.
This, my friend, is FATALISM! This does not take into account that God works by MEANS...and that God can use people as those means. I'll show the implications of this later.
************************
So why pray? If God is planning for your dog's life to end, then any reason you have for God sparing his life will be inferior to God's divine reasoning. If God is planning for your Dog to survive, then any prayer on your part will be redundant.
Meph:
See how we've fallen deeper into the pit of wrong thinking? We have just REMOVED any type of human ability to be God's MEANS of doing something. This is the question that you have to ask yourself:
"Is it possible that God could be using MY prayer as a line of causation from whence things occur?"
It is THIS thinking that takes us out of the FAULTY notion that Calvinism is fatalistic. Oh, how I wish people would get this!
**********************
So wouldn't any prayer to save your dog's life in this situation either be arrogant (thinking that your judgement of whether or not doggie should die is somehow BETTER than God's judgement) OR redundant(God isn't planning on taking doggie from you and you'll soon see this).
Meph:
To say that the prayer was arrogant, you would have to assert that your very prayer ITSELF was OUTSIDE of the will of God...which if you accepted the full view, you could not do. To say that the prayer was redundant, you would have to assert that God would have done what he did ANYWAY, without your prayer. But how in the world could you prove that? How do you know that God didn't use your prayer to Him as a MEANS through which to save the dog? See what I mean? I hope this shows you how absolutely, utterly WRONG many caricatures about Calvinism are. If you get anything from this, get this:
Predestination is NOT fatalism. Predetermination is NOT fatalism.
*************************************
Next, you ask this:
Obviously, if the open view (and you could also throw in Boyd's spiritual warfare theory) is correct the question changes its meaning entirely- what effect does prayer have? Will God, based on your prayer, possibly decide to get your dog out of the road? What good is prayer in that situation?
Now, HERE'S a question that I'd love to discuss real quick. First let's get the ground rules laid.
1. God has set up the universe such that free-willed sentient beings have significant "say-so" such that they can counteract God's will.
2. God does not known the future, because it's not there to be known.
3. God CANNOT act unilaterally at all times or in ALL situations. This is because of #1
4. It is genuinely possible that God's FULL efforts can be completely frustrated by either 1) the acts of free-willed beings or 2) certain circumstances that arise in nature.
5. God is OMNIBENEVOLENT at all times.
Now, that we have those, let's ask the question.
What good is prayer? Hmm...let's add one more to the former list to make sense of this.
6. God has set up the universe such that he RESPONDS to prayer. Thus, he doesn't automatically "spring" into action at every wrong or evil occurance. (If this was the case, then prayer would be superfluous. He would be fully acting on our behalf at ALL times, regardless of whether we prayed or not. Thus, there would be no NEED to pray) So, if a person doesn't pray, God might not act on that person's behalf. God's answers to prayer are truly contingent.
Now, I'm going to skip the obvious problems this gives for the concept of "omnibenevolence", and move on to other things.
The good of prayer seems to be that, without it, you are MUCH LESS LIKELY to get the relationship with God that you want, whether that be the meeting of a need or just communication with Him. This answers the question of WHY you would pray. But the question comes in about the EFFICACY of prayer. Is it possible that a person could be praying for something from God, and even though God REALLY, REALLY wants to help that person, His "hands" are tied because of the complex interaction of free-willed being and the complex universe? We have to say yes. Taking your example, we could say that God REALLY, REALLY wanted to save your dog. But darnit, a free-willed being was driving the car...and they weren't looking. SPLAT. Or God REALLY, REALLY wanted to save your dog, but a demon messed up the works. SPLAT.
Now what do you have here? You have the genuine possibility that praying to God won't make the LEAST BIT OF AID, not because he didn't WANT to help or because he had a PLAN for this, per se...but simply because God couldn't pull it off. Now I don't know about you, but I think this has some FAR REACHING implications for prayer. We would be well within our rights to say the following in prayer:
Lord, I would really like X. I pray that you can help me do X. I understand that the world is complex and everything, but if you can possibly pull it off, I'd really like X. Just work as hard as you can for it and I'll do my part, too. Maybe we can pull this off. If X doesn't happen, then help me deal with life without X, as much as you can.
Notice, how this is DISTINCT from this:
Lord, I would really like X. You can do ALL things, ANYTIME you wish. I know this, so I'm asking you to do X for me. If X doesn't happen, then obviously it wasn't meant to be at this time or at all. It's all a part of your will. Help me deal with out X. You have a reason for whatever happens.
Do you remember how in church you would hear that God answered prayer in mainly 3 ways.
1) Yes
2) No
3) Not Yet or Wait
This simple statement was formulated from the ASSUMPTION that God could do all things, meaning act unilaterally at any time. Taking the open view seriously we would have to say that THESE are the possible responses to prayer.
1) Yes
2) No
3) Not Yet or Wait
4) I'll try
5) I tried, but couldn't get it done
6) I'm trying, so give me some time.
I'm asking that Open theists please don't get all up in arms about this. This is NOT a caricature, if you think about it. This is EXACTLY the logical conclusion of the worldview. Open view theists HAVE to say that God could be working FLAT OUT to accomplish a goal, by whatever means, and UTTERLY fail at His attempt because of the complexity of the universe. If OVTers want to be consistent, they have to say this.
Not too long ago, I posed a question about a little girl named Josephine, a child with a serious disease, and how prayer effected her case. The answer that I basically received is that there were many complex issues that could have come together to cause Josephine's lack of healing, however God was in no way to blame. I said this after that:
Lemme tell you something, though. I KNOW how much I personally prayed for that little girl, not to mention the others. If what you are saying about existence is true (it was so complex that God's hands were effectively tied, in one way or another IN SPITE OF God's ultimate will to help humanity in every way possible), then I cannot see how prayer can't be seen as anything short of a "hit and miss" activity. Basically despite God's best efforts and OUR best efforts, stuff can still be quite screwed. I bet this gives everyone here more impetus to believe in the powerful efficacy of prayer, right? Heh. Moreover, I can't help but see how many ways God truly is IMPOTENT in this world. If he is so much at the mercy of this complex world, as you say, such that he COULDN'T heal that little girl with ALL of the human effort working towards that goal in faith...:::shaking my head:::...the "God of the Possible" is nothing more than the God of the Highly Improbable, in my opinion.
What I am talking about here is EXACTLY the same thing. The efficacy of prayer is a GAMBLE at best. You'd better hope that the conditions are JUST right...else you and God might be stuck out. Do you see the problem that some may have with this?
Let me anticipate a biblical response here from open view theists. The Scripture that I constantly see that is used to back this type of view is Daniel 10:12-14
Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of t he Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."
This is taken to mean that Almighty God REALLY, REALLY wanted to answer Daniel's prayer the first day it was heard. But couldn't get the angel there before 21 days with the help of Michael.
"Meph, right THERE! It's plain to see that there were complex issues by free-willed agents that prevented God from getting his message to Daniel until 21 days later! That's the type of stuff we are talking about. Biblical!"
I'd like to ask you, Crowe. Does this belief follow NECESSARILY from the Scripture? I personally don't think so. Why? Because for this to be valid, we would have to say that the ONLY way that God could have gotten his message to Daniel was by way of angel. But this won't wash at ALL because we have accounts of God speaking to people in dreams AND speaking to people directly with NO angelic messenger! Because of the options open to God that COULD HAVE gotten to Daniel right after, if not ON, the first day, how in the world could we say that this scripture backs the view that God's hands are tied by a complex universe? Is someone REALLY going to argue that the ONLY way God could have spoken to Daniel was by way of angel? On what EXEGETICAL grounds could they argue this? To say that it was so because of the complex universe would be begging the question...big time! Heh.
Summing up, if OVT is true, I cannot see prayer as anything more as a hit and miss thing. You pray..and HOPE that situations are such that God can answer your prayer. Yep, I said it. HOPE.
Any critiques of this line of thinking are welcome. Bring it.
Welcome to the board, Crowe. Have tons of fun.
Blessings,
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Crowe150
04/27/01 7:32 AM
RE: Yeah...What Good IS Prayer?
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Interesting.... I'll chew on that for awhile... like I said, I'm really inexperienced with this whole thing, I mostly hope to lurk and read and learn... expect little but questions from me, although I promise I'm reading and considering everything that is said in here. A lot of it is over my head though.
Another question along the same line: what good does it do to pray specifically for someone? Hypothetical situation: a friend decides to "accept Christ" (that is, believe and put faith in Jesus as his savior, with the desire to follow his example for living). Said friend is a college student, and in an academic department that is... not exactly conducive socially to Christianity. Oh yeah, he's also been engaged in homosexual practices since high school. How does my praying for him help his situation?
I like what you said about Calvinism not being synonymous with Fatalism. I hadn't ever really looked at it that way. Looks like I'm throwing punches with the heavyweights, but I'm a featherweight at best *LOL*
Looking forward to your responses.
Crowe
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
04/30/01 8:42 AM
RE: Mephi, Mephi, Mephi
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Well Mephi, I haven't addressed you in a long time, (just so happens that the subject of prayer is near and dear to my heart)so strap yourself in, don't grade me on grammar/spelling, and prepare to hear someone ALMOST as long-winded as yourself
I lean toward the open view, and away from Calvinism, just so ya know.
Let's look at some verses and see if God has any 'trouble' with the complex universe, OR if we should just pray and get it over with cuz He can do it no matter what...
1. 1Thess.3:10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you face to face and restore what is lacking in your faith. (seems like they ask more than once?)
2. Romans 12:12 Rejoice in hope (there's your note on hope), be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. (seems ongoing, persevere almost sounds like we are 'coming against' something)
3. 1Thess 5:17 Pray without ceasing. (seems ongoing)
4. Acts 10:2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God. (seems ongoing)
5. Dan 6:10 Although Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he continued to go to his house, which had windows in its upper room open toward Jerusalem, and to get down on his knees three times a day to pray to his God and to praise him, just as he had done previously.
(seems ongoing)
6. Luke 18:7-8 And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to Him day and night? 8.I tell you , he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? (story of the PERSISTENT widow) (seems ongoing)
7. Phil. 4:6 Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. *note: supplication~ the act of making a humble and earnest petition: to beg (seems ongoing)
8. James 5:13-17 Are any among you suffering? They should pray.(continuum) Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, annointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. THE PRAYER OF THE RIGHTEOUS IS POWERFUL AND EFFECTIVE. 17. Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed FERVENTLY that it might not rain, and for 3 years and 6 months it did not rain on the earth. (fervently...sounds ongoing)
~~here's to the COMPLEX UNIVERSE THAT MAY HINDER PRAYER.
*Proverbs*
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
05/01/01 11:58 PM
add this;-)
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I forgot to add this.
Mephi said:
Summing up, if OVT is true, I cannot see prayer as anything more as a hit and miss thing. You pray..and HOPE that situations are such that God can answer your prayer. Yep,I said it HOPE.
~And now faith, HOPE, and love abide... (sounds biblical to me)
Lastly, are you asserting that there aren't hindrances to God answering prayer?
Think Job,Psalms, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Micah, Ezekial, Daniel, and Proverbs
*
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
yamIam
04/30/01 10:01 AM
RE: add this;-)
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It seems like ALL my prayers are hindered!
yam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Psalm_18
04/30/01 11:19 AM
RE: RE: Mephi, Mephi, Mephi
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Hello all,
I'm trying to understand the connection of fervent and continual prayer (which seems biblical) to the 'problem' that God has in answering prayer (eg. Dan:10).
I think what Proverbs is trying to say is, "Doesn't God call us to 'press in' and be persistent?" Why would we need to pray again and again for something to come to pass if there was NOTHING preventing it?
Why would God call us to supplication (beg) if we don't have 'say so'? We obviously have some part in what God will or will not do, and apparently there is opposition, or we wouldn't have to go to Him more than once.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/30/01 7:53 PM
RE: RE: add this;-)
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yamIam said: "It seems like ALL my prayers are hindered!"
This sentence sounded so discouraging that I wanted to input a little scripture. I am not sure where these passages are located in the bible BUT I know they are in there. If anyone wants the exact scripture references feel free to do a little bible study -- although many of you scholarly people will know where they are located anyway. "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world." Satan may try to hinder our prayers being answered but ultimately Christ who is in us has the supreme authority. "No weapons formed against me shall prosper."
I believe that every prayer is answered with either a yes, no, or maybe. The important aspect of praying is having a conversation with God. Through our prayer we surrender the outcome to Him.
God's blessings,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Still_unsure
04/30/01 9:51 PM
RE: Yeah...What Good IS Prayer?
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Hi mephi:
Just two questions for you. Do you embrace Reformded theology's TULIP?
If you do, how can you say Calvinism isn't fatalistic?
You said:
"How do you know that God didn't use your prayer to Him as a MEANS through which to save the dog?"
You imply that his prayer may "cause" God do do one action (save the dog) over another (allow it's death) when in fact the dog's "fate" was determined eons ago by God (according to Reformed thought).
"Predestination is NOT fatalism. Predetermination is NOT fatalism. *************************************"
If my eternal fate is already decided I personally tend to feel a little like a victim of the fates.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
05/01/01 8:27 AM
RE: What good is prayer?
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For those of you who are local to the Twin Cities area, Doc is preaching on this very topic with Peggy Riley, at Woodland Hills Church. Check it out if you can. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
05/23/01 2:57 PM
RE: What good is prayer?
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Crowe150 asked this question a while back: "Obviously, if the open view (and you could also throw in Boyd's spiritual warfare theory) is correct the question changes its meaning entirely- what effect does prayer have? Will God, based on your prayer, possibly decide to get your dog out of the road? What good is prayer in that situation?"
Now, I want to resurrect this discussion because I am going through some similar questions regarding prayer, freewill, warfare, and the Open View. I am sure that this has been brought up and discussed to extent in the past but I am too lazy and pressed for time to start searching through past postings to find answers.
Here's my question, I can see God influencing a dog because I don't hold to a dog's freewill with as much weight as to a person's freewill, but how about when our prayers involve other people. If I pray for something (say my house selling), how can God answer that prayer without influencing people's freewills? Since God has decided to give us freewill then He can't really answer many of our prayers, when they effect other people's freewills, can He??? I am a little puzzled by what we can actually be confident in bringing before God in prayer? How much can He answer given the type of world He set up?
Please, I hope some people will give me their feedback in this area because I am very puzzled.
Thanks much
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/23/01 11:49 PM
What good is prayer?
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"If I pray for something (say my house selling), how can God answer that prayer without influencing people's freewills? Since God has decided to give us freewill then He can't really answer many of our prayers, when they effect other people's freewills, can He???"
Try this on for size...
You are trying to sell a house, so you start praying about it. Mr. and Mrs. Smith are planning to move to town from Wakonda South Dakota, so they start praying that they would be able to find the right house. God would not force the Smiths to buy your house, but instead he could help point them in your direction. I will not go into all the different possibilities of how that could come about, but instead we will just say that God prompted them. Now of course it is up to them whether or not to listen to that prompting. If they do, then everyones prayer has beem answered. If they don't then I am sure that He can find someone else with a very similar need that is willing to listen and buy your house from you.
As you can tell, I am largely going on the assumption that in one form or another God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit on a personal level.
Mr Indifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/24/01 6:38 AM
RE: What good is prayer?
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Try this on for size...
Instead of praying ( and hoping maybe God can do something ) I advertise in a good internet real estate service. I believe that some say, " God helps those who help themselves " .
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/24/01 6:59 AM
RE: What good is prayer?
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Try this on for size...
Instead of praying ( and hoping maybe God can do something ) I advertise in a good internet real estate service. I believe that some say, " God helps those who help themselves " .
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
05/24/01 10:02 AM
RE: RE: What good is prayer?
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Mr. Indifference and Don:
Thanks for responding to my questions.
Mr.I said:"he could help point them in your direction. I will not go into all the different possibilities of how that could come about, but instead we will just say that God prompted them. Now of course it is up to them whether or not to listen to that prompting."
This is helpful! This helps me in understanding exactly how to pray. I was beginning to feel that many of my prayers are useless because God has decided to set up the world with freewill which to me meant He is limited...but your explanation HELPS!
Don said:" Instead of praying ( and hoping maybe God can do something ) I advertise in a good internet real estate service. I believe that some say, " God helps those who help themselves "
I agree! We must help ourselves and do everything within our own ability. Do our best and let God do the rest! What I was struggling with is how, when, and about what I should be praying. I was questioning how much God is able to do within the type of world He has created...
Thanks
trosie
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