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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Page 2 >>
GregBoyd
05/22/01 11:59 PM
Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Here's a poem I have (providentially?) come across three times in the last three weeks. I guess its rather famous, though I'd never read it before. I wondered what you all thought. It's by Willaim Cowper. It's entitled "God moves in mysterious ways."
Judge not the Lord by feeble sense
But trust Him for His grace.
Behind a frowning providence
He hides a smiley face.
A nice little ditty, isn't it. I think it may work for CHRISTIANS going through hardship. The Bible certainly says that sometimes we suffer according to the will of God. But I have a harder time seeing the smile and twinkle in God's eyes behind the rape and dismemberment of a little girl. Did God have a smile and gleam in his eye with every gasp of a child in the gas chambers of Auschwitz? Can't quite see that one either.
Does every thing Satan does please God? If God ordained it to be so, it must be. Right? Rape? Disease? Kidnappings? Wars? Little girl held captive and tortured for 10 years? Eternal hell?
Yet, sentiments like Cowper's seem to permeate evangelicalism. I don't get it. How about you?
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/23/01 12:07 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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For myself, Doc, it seems more like a smack in the face. The Psalm show believers screaming...I know I screamed a lot in the face of my niece's death. I certainly do believe God loves us and he works in what happens, but I don't usually smile a lot at the tragedies life can bring...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mary33
05/23/01 3:11 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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When are people going to realize that this ST Augustine poop is not SCRIPTURE..i mean he's cool, but a cosmic painting..blemishes...give me a break...they aren't blemishes at all...then why do they sure as heck seem like blemishes? I would suggest that everyone watch the movie "The Devil's Advocate." It's got a couple of scenes you may fast forward through, or if your one of the addicts from the maturbation post..hehe..only kiddding...no people...no! Anyway, free will...if god was to have people truly choose him, i mean truly..in the truest sense, then wouldn't there have to be some senses in which a person could truly in the most trrrrue sense "not" choose him...rape someone..kidnap? I think so, and i think it crushes god, i think he wants to embrace us when things like this happen, but i think that he took the risk so that we could come to him from our own choice...i think that god certainly does have the potential to bring good out of bad, either miraculously or through his relationships with moral agents and their choices in accordance w/free will..our god is mysterious, but for real if i think its horrible and i'm finite would god do it? An all loving god? My idea of love is skewed if not...may be, hmmm..i don't know, who knows...boyd-that was a wonderful final..i liked the part about the rapture...my sentece stopped midstream...thought you might laugh at that...hehe...have a great summer had a blast in your class, hope to catch ya for god, evil and spiritual warfare..
I think that instead of a smiley face behind everything is god like a cheerleader who in the aftermath tries to shout...hey theres a frown, hey theres a frown...no turn that frown upside down...peace adam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mary33
05/23/01 3:13 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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oh hey, this is actually BOYDREAMER101, under my mothers name..i got her hooked on here..haha..funny ey!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
05/23/01 9:46 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Cowper was a very devout Calvinist, but somehow he became convinced that he was not one of the elect, in spite of his devotion. He attempted suicide several times, and I think he finally succeeded, but I’m not sure if I’m remembering correctly…anyway, interesting fellow. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GODesteem
05/23/01 9:52 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Greetings Mr. Boyd! I must ask you if you have ever read about William Cowper's life? Then you might understand where this "song" came from (there are more verses to it than the ones you sighted). Cowper struggled with depression for most of his life, and it was from the pit that he wrote these words. I highly doubt that William was looking at a single point in time, and using that as a measuring rod for God's providence. Cowper was pondering his WHOLE life, and knew that God had a purpose through ALL of it - a purpose to bring good our of the despair. In other words, as the apostle Paul puts it:
"We know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.. If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:28, 31b-32).
God causes ALL things to work together for good - that doesn't mean that the things in and of themselves are good! After all, the preceding context speaks of suffering, and how our bodies cry out for redemption from the curse of sin and decay (v. 23). Notice also that it was GOD who subjected the creation to futility in hope (v. 20)!
I happened to catch your take on this passage:
"whatever happens, God will work with us to bring a redemptive purpose out of the event (Rom. 8:28)." (God of the Possible, 155-156)
How does your explanation compare with the guaranteed promise of God in this passage? Where does the passage state that God will work with us? I am sure He can and does work with us, but, within your philisophical construct, how can God guarantee anything, when He doesn't know if we will even cooperate with Him, so that He can "bring a redemptive purpose out of the event"??
Paul makes it clear that God causes all things, including suffering and evil, to work together for good - God is actively working to bring about good for His own people! As far as Paul is concerned, there is no such thing as pointless suffering or evil in a believer's life.
You also wrote:
"The Bible certainly says that sometimes we suffer according to the will of God."
My response:
Just what criteria do you use to analyze the mind of God and decide which examples of suffering are being used by God for some perceived good that would come from it? You obviously deny the comprehensiveness of Romans 8:28; hence I am curious at to what level of wisdom is required to determine what suffering is beneficial, and what suffering is pointless.
Mr. Boyd continues:
"But I have a harder time seeing the smile and twinkle in God's eyes behind the rape and dismemberment of a little girl. Did God have a smile and gleam in his eye with every gasp of a child in the gas chambers of Auschwitz?"
My response:
Again, you continue to misrepresent the classical position. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God is only joyous when evil happens. In fact, David speaks to this issue:
"For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with You.
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You" (Psalm 6:4-7).
Yet, at the same time, there are examples where God finds delight in an act which, in and of itself, is wicked! Take the death of Jesus, for example. According to Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28, godless men were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. Those who never repented of this evil will suffer the wrath of God forevermore. However, according to Isaiah,
"The Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand"
(Isaiah 53:10).
Surely this chapter deals with the death of God's unique Son? Here Isaiah claims that God was PLEASED to kill His own Son! How can God possible be angry with the wicked who put His Son on a tree, and also be pleased to kill Him? I would say that God is far more complex than we could ever imagine. The Bible explains who He is, how He reacts, and His emotional dimension. We best submit to His explanation, even if it doesn't make sense to us.
Mr. Boyd concludes:
"If God ordained it to be so, it must be. Right? Rape? Disease? Kidnappings? Wars? Little girl held captive and tortured for 10 years? Eternal hell?"
My response:
Are you suggesting that God did not ordain the creation of hell? It might just surprise you that God has no problem speaking of such a place:
"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed - for our testimony to you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10)
Surely I don't need to defend the doctrine of hell to you, a reputable Bible scholar and teacher? As for the rest of your questions, the Bible does speak about disease and wars, but believing in hell is more important at the moment.
By the way, I GET IT. Cowper knew exactly what he was talking about, and knew the God of the Bible.
Benjamin Musclow
godesteem@mailcity.com
"God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him."
John Piper
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
05/23/01 10:20 AM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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More on Cowper:
The last poem Cowper ever wrote was called, “The Castaway.” Here is the final stanza:
No voice divine the storm allay’d, [an allusion to Matt. 8:23–6]
No light propitious shone;
When, snatch’d from all effectual aid,
We perish’d, each alone:
But I beneath a rougher sea,
And whelm’d in deeper gulfs than he.
Cowper identified with the castaway in this poem. He said, “My sin and judgment are alike peculiar. I am a castaway, deserted and condemned.”
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/23/01 11:17 AM
RE: RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Personally, I do not believe Boyd misrepresents the classical tradition at all. I simply believe he does what most classical believers are not willing to do, draw it out to its logical conclusions. There is certainly a debate within Christian circles as to whether or not God causes all things (as in wills all things from the beginning of time...as you obviously believe) or that he allows certain things and uses them to his glory. While each is within orthodoxy (perhaps you don't believe that, given you quote Piper), the simple fact is that not all Christians believe that God causes all things in a divine plan. It would seem that if he did, one could not truly say that some things are bad and some things are good, because all in all is of God, be in sin or suffering. That is a logical extention of God causing all things in some divine plan.
Finally, I would agree with you that God is far more complex than any of us can imagine, yet while you seem to take Boyd to task for trying to make sense of such things as pain and suffering, you are doing the same thing, by asserting your view on God. We all try to figure God out, in order that we may draw closer to him. To assume, somehow, that you are not, by appealing to the complexity of God, is to deny the obvious. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
talmid
05/23/01 2:46 PM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Who know the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? I would hesitate even to talk about providence because I don't think we are able to even glimpse in God's view. I think all of this comes from a partial understanding of who God is. We often create for ourselves a god much less that the real God. I call him God in the same way I might call you Dr. Boyd. God is simply his name to us. God is just another noun in our minds. God is a verb as well. Even when we get into foreknowledge (which is ultimatley the question here), we suffer from a severly lacking ability to see into reality. We talk about our relating in three dimensions and that three-dimensional reality relates to itself within the fourth dimension - time (thanks Einstein). Where do God and heaven fit into all of this? We can talk about God being outside of even His created dimension of time looking at all of history as a "time-line." Even as we think about Him looking that involves the concept of time - He looks from left to right down the timeline and innteracts with it. We cannot fathom a God outside of time because we can only ecperience Him within time. We are restricted. So then what does providence really mean? It can only be a way of God relating to us, because we cannot possible relate to Him in any new sense of the term. Calvinism, Arminianism, Open-Theism are all ways of explaining what cannot be understood. It simply cannot be understood! I think a really strong Christian who is also a theoretical Physicist might just begin to understand how much these things can not be explained or contained. We barely have a glimpse of the glory and majesty of "God". In many ways I like the Jewish understanding of God. They often called Him by what He did than to name him as who He Is. They referred to Him as Ha-Shem "The Name" or YHWH "The one who is."
So are we predestined, or do we become predestined? How can one become predestined? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?
Let us be honest and really fear the Lord
-talmid
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/23/01 3:53 PM
seeing through your glass clearly
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"Who know the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? I would
hesitate even to talk about providence because I don't think we
are able to even glimpse in God's view."
This seems to in fact be a claim about the very god you believe claims cannot be made about. I would suggest that rather than trying to assert this, we try and recognize that we humbly come before our studies, assertions and inquiries, and i think everyone here does.
in the light of the lamb on the cross forever and ever, wwjd, peace out, word to your mom, harold, blessings, shalom, amen, whatever else sounds catchy at the end of a christian thread....hehe..
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
David100
05/23/01 4:53 PM
RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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I am new to posting on a message board, so forgive me if I mess anything up in the process. For any of you that would like to read a fairly succinct (10 pages?) biographical sketch on William Cowper, you can go to the following Cowper link. Just so you know, it was written by John Piper.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/23/01 7:34 PM
RE: RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Let us ALL truly be honest and realize that while we cannot know about God on our own, God has revealed himself in certain ways and that CAN be known. So let us, instead of throwing up our hands in the air and assuming we are holy before the Lord, be brave and seek the Almighty as He has revealed himself. Be honest? Yes, let us be honest and soldier down the path our Lord has braved and seek after the Lord as Jesus declared we should. The Lord can be known because he has revealed himself. If one is not brave enough to truly seek the Lord, then one should not venture opinions on what others should do. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/23/01 8:29 PM
RE: RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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GDG-
Cowper is tops. My favorite. Love his poems. The poem he wrote remembering the day his mother died is absolutely wonderful.
Blessings,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
TGB
05/23/01 8:33 PM
RE: RE: Frowning Providence, Smiling Face
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Ben-
Welcome to the pickle barrel.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
05/24/01 8:44 AM
A Pet Peeve of Mine...
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A Pet peeve of mine
You Wrote:
Paul makes it clear that God causes all things, including suffering and evil, to work together for good - God is actively working to bring about good for His own people! As far as Paul is concerned, there is no such thing as pointless suffering or evil in a believer's life.
[Doc] also wrote:
"The Bible certainly says that sometimes we suffer according to the will of God."
[GODesteem’s] response:
Just what criteria do you use to analyze the mind of God and decide which examples of suffering are being used by God for some perceived good that would come from it? You obviously deny the comprehensiveness of Romans 8:28; hence I am curious at to what level of wisdom is required to determine what suffering is beneficial, and what suffering is pointless.
Wislawa’s response:
It is a pet peeve of mine to see the problem of pain, suffering, and evil all lumped together as if the words or the problems were interchangeable. Pain and suffering are sometimes good. I’ve loved people so much that it pained me and the pain was (or at least seemed to be) an integral part of that love. C.S. Lewis speculates in “The Problem of Pain” that there will be some pains in Heaven. He notes that the gentle ache one feels after a long walk is one of life’s pleasures and that if Heaven lacked this aspect of Earthly life Lewis would think Heaven less than perfect. Pain and suffering are also an integral part of growth. This might be a result of the fall but I don’t think so. There is something about the struggle involved in growing that adds to the joy of growing. When the Bible says that we suffer when God disciplines us I believe this is because discipline is meant for growth and growth involves suffering. This is natural and good and healthy just as working out is natural and good and healthy even though working out is hard work. But if you cannot see a difference between suffering of this sort and evil than your vision is deficient. The problem of evil is of a different class than the problems of pain and suffering. Suffering and pain can SOMETIMES be good. Evil by simple definition can never be good. Wesley once wrote to Edwards that who Edwards called God Wesley called Satan. Milton once wrote that Satan said to evil ‘thy name be goodness’ and said to goodness ‘thy name be evil.’ When Doc wrote, “The Bible certainly says that sometimes we suffer according to the will of God,” he could still hold this without confusing the good with evil. You make a mighty big jump when you move from Doc’s statement to yours when you write “Paul makes it clear that God causes all things, INCLUDING SUFFERING AND EVIL, to work together for good - God is actively working to bring about good for His own people! As far as Paul is concerned, there is no such thing as pointless SUFFERING OR EVIL in a believer's life.” [emphasis mine]
So thanks for letting me get that pet peeve off my chest.
By the way, how can you love an evil God? But hey some people worship Satan. Is sheer power attractive enough to win your hearts affection? If God is as you say He is than it would seem the correct position to take would be one of moral outrage. We should fight against Him with all our might, morally depraved as we are, on the side of morality.
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
05/24/01 9:21 AM
Calling a Spade a Spade
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Good post Doc!
If you ever come out with a second edition of “God at War” I think you should insert this poem among the other hymns of praise and screams of terror. I found that section particularly well played.
A preliminary note preceding the shameless brown nosing:
If we intend to preform an act of literary criticism on Willaim Cowper’s poetry than the context of the poem in question should surely be brought in to inform our interpretation of it. I have never read much about Cowper but the little this post has pointed out has struck quite a cord with me. I empathize with his feelings of damnation and am touched not only by beauty of his composition but also at how well he expresses these emotions.
The problem as I see lies here:
I am coming out of the Geneva school of hermeneutics when it comes to understanding art lead by the German philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer, a disciple of Heidegger. According to Gadamer art takes place in the fusion of horizons between the appreciator and the work itself. In order for proper hermeneutics to take place the appreciator must bear some of the burden. In the case of this poem many of those who use this hymn do so unprepared. I believe it can serve us well, and has already begun to serve me well today, if the appreciator has reached a level of competency, if they can carry their weight in the encounter. This poem should be kept out of reach from those not educated enough to use it properly. (wow i sound like a snoot)
So if we take a literary critical take on Cowper we find him quite profound and pious, but for the sake of argument we can abstract this poem from his life, from the larger locus of meaning, and treat it the way most who sing it treat it. That is question the literal theological content of the poem apart from everything else. This was, I believe, Doc’s intention here.
So in the context of this post I say the only moral thing to do is to kick in God’s smiling teeth the same way you’d kick in any evil person’s teeth who took pleasure, even joy, from willing evil events. The question is does the Warfare Theodicy avoid this same consequence? It is my view that it does not and deserves the same radical critique that the Augustinian view warrants. Neither the Augustinian view, nor the Warfare view can satisfactorily remove the demonic from Yahweh. I am thinking here of Dr. Paul Kjoss Helseth’s critique of the Warfare view in his article “Strange Providence.” He is bringing this critique to from the Augustinian position and every problem he raises for Doc is ten times a bigger problem for himself. The only way out, as I see it, is to follow the facts and give up trying to clear Gods filthy name, call a spade a spade, and mount some sort of attack on evil in general.
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
05/24/01 11:47 AM
RE: Calling a Spade a Spade
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Wislawa: while not knowing all the details of you and such, I offer this advice. Watch out! One can be too serious and bitterness can be all consuming. As one who spent much of his high school pondering the unfairness of God and life (much of which, to be honest and I am sorry to say, dealt mostly with why the church girls weren't putting out for me, but I digress), I can tell you this: there is a lot of energy to be wasted and, in the end, there comes a time when one has to decide whether or not the God of the Bible is worth trusting. In that sense I agree with SK: one must make the leap of faith. In the mean time, it is important to recognize that bitterness and doubts are like most other things, they can be both true and false. Finally, the Bible which has great violence, also has some of the most poetry, wonderful chapters on love, brotherhood, friendship, etc.
Life is about balance, about striving for scales that hold the tension well.
"I once asked a deeply religious man if he considered himself a truly pious person. He responded that while he aspired to be one, he felt he fell short in two areas. One of those areas, he said, was his not being a happy enough person to be considered truly pious. His point was that unhappy religious people reflect poorly on their religion and on their creator....one day, it occurred to me that being unhappy was easy...in fact, the easy way out and that it took no courage, effort, or greatness to be unhappy. Anyone could be unhappy. True achievement, I realized at an early age, lay in strugging to be happy."
From the book: Happiness is A Serious Problem by Dennis Prager (Jewish Talk show host). An excellant book. At the risk of sounding cliche, the Buhhda said: life is difficult. So it is. But we make the decision as to what we do with it. As Paul said: "I have learned to be content in all things..."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
talmid
05/24/01 12:22 PM
RE: seeing through your glass clearly
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The point of my previous entry was not to say we cannot know anything. Maybe I was a bit ambiguous, let me articulate. Let us surely approach God will sincere humility and honesty, but let us be honest about how honest we are really being. The point is not to make goos points, or to argue a position better than another. We need to understand what we know, but we also need to know what we understand. The latter is the complicated part because if you cannot understand it, how do you know to what degree you are failing to understand. It is like me saying that Einstein was a genious. I know this is true, but I have no idea what it looks like except to process with my brain. I am not saying claims cannot be made about God, I am saying that there are aspects of Him that we cannot make claims about - as they are beyod our finite mind, to put it simply. Anyway, thanks for being honest! May the Lord bless you boydreamer101!
-talmid
PS.
Is is boy dreamer 101, or boyd reamer? Are you a reamer or a dreamer?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/24/01 9:04 PM
BOY DREAMER
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BOY DREAMER its my fancy, clever little way of saying something neat! but thats funny boyd reamer...hehe..i wonder if anyone has thought about that besides you, to clear it up though, no boy dreamer the 101 is because boydreamer was already taken or something i think i don't know...101 is like the easiest yet most filling classes...words words words...peace
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
05/24/01 9:48 PM
Rom. 8:28
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To Godesteem:
It certainly isn't obvious that the statement "in all things God is working together for the better for those who love the Lord" is equivalent to the statement "God causes all things for the better..." Indeed, the term "working together" (synergeo) suggests to me effort against resistance -- WORK WITH -- which could not be the case if God were omni-controlling.
You say I misrepresent "the classical position" by noting verses where God is against evil and concluding God isn't only joyous over the evil events he ordains. He is more complex than that. So, if I'm understanding you, now we must not only imagine a smiling face behind the providence that "frowns" on the 5 year old as she screams in terror while being tortured: we must also imagine an angry and joyous face behind the frowning face of providence. Is there anyone out there for whom this idea actual clears things up and inspires a much more glorious picture of God!
In any event, if God ordains all things, we have the Cowper comfort of being reasurred that every single vibration of the terrorized screaming child's vocal chord as she's being mutilated is precisely as the smiling God predestined it to be. Not a single "maverik molecule," as the Calvinist R.C.Sproul says. All is going exactly as planned, down to every child's scream, every nighmarishly pain filled nerve ending, every hopeless gasp in a gas chamber, every ounce of terror of a Jewish mother having to choose which of her children will be gassed (Sophie's joice)... The plan is unfolding "perfectly." Here's God. (: And, as long as it "works out for the better" for me, for I am one of "the elect," I should "find comfort" in the assurance I have and exalt God for being all the more glorious -- precisely for controling each vibration of the terrorized vocal chord.
From what I'm hearing about Cowper, he lived out consistently the kind of comfort this model supplies.
Bewildered and disturbed by the very thought
Doc
Ps. Jn 14:9-10. "If you see me" -- dying on the cross in passionate love for you -- "you see the Father." Forgive my "feeble reason" for being unable to accept this picture of God while also accepting the "secure" picture of God of "the classical position."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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