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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
jarkat
05/05/01 6:56 PM
Women in Ministry
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In Evangelical Options, two views are discussed regarding the role of women in ministry: the egalitarian position and the complimentarian view. The egalitarian view believes that leadership is based on gifts, not gender, and therefore is not specific to only males in leadership. The complimentarian view holds that men and women have different roles which are intended to compliment each other. Over the past few years, my home church has dealt a great deal with the debate over women elders, and more recently over womem pastors, so I'm really curious to hear views about this topic. First, the complimentarian view that claims "New Testament prohibitions regarding women in leadership to mean only that women should not function as the top spiritual leader and teacher of a congregation." This seems the closest idea to creating a combination of the two views, but is there Scriptural evidence for it? Also, can't we simply understand from practical experience that certain women have gifts of leadership and public speaking. If these are limited, wouldn't it be the same as restricting the gifts God has given? I personally have a hard time believing that certain women should simply not use their natural, God-given abilities of leadership because the culture of Biblical times did not allow for it.
Kathryn
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mary33
05/05/01 7:13 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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This question is one of interpretation and cultural relativity. I appreciate what I assume to be your high view of Scripture. I think we do the Bible a disservice if we don't see the significance of culture to the Epistles in particular. There have been many excellent books written by evangelical men and women that can deal with specifics better than this reply will try to do. (see CBE materials - Christians for Biblical Equality - they have a website and their material has helped my walk to the point where I am contemplating going into the ministry)
When I finally realized my brain didn't have to apologize or be limited by estrogen, I have been able to serve Jesus so much more than I allowed myself. Hurrah for common sense. We are all servants. What are the limits for men because of their maleness? I don't see any for either of us. Lest I get too lengthy and invite arguments, I urge you to check out CBE. Love in Christ, a sister
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
05/05/01 8:33 PM
Silly Phallo-Centric Ministries, Tricks are for Hookers
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So what about trans-genders, crossdressers, homosexuals, polygamists, and cheerleaders? If a man becomes a woman can she no longer become an elder? If a woman becomes a man can he now become eligible? How do you even know your elders are the genders they claim to be? I’m not trying to be rude. Think about how many billions of people have lived. Think about how many have become elders or pastors. This is a crazy world we live in. I bet you at least once in history it has happened where a woman was an elder and everyone else thought she was a man. When was the last time YOU double-checked your own church elders? Maybe fundies should start requiring certified doctors to run gender checks on their church leaders just like we run criminal background checks just to make sure. Seriously though, is a penis really the difference between what makes a good leader and what doesn’t? The whole thing reveals itself for what it IS when we say it like it IS—and what it is is ridickulous. Even Lacan has to have a good laugh at the phallo-centric nature of fundaMENTALism. As you can see I have a small level of conviction on this issue.
Here’s to those who BE from one who HAS (P.S. if you don’t get it read Lacan)
—the penis envying Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
jarkat
05/05/01 8:51 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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To Wislawa, while I can understand your skepticism, I would prefer to stick to the topic originally posted. I believe the role of women in ministry is an extremely important one and should not be taken lightly. The topic you mention, in my mind, raises entirely different concerns. If church leaders are facing topics of homosexuality or crossdressing habits, then I believe there are other topics that should be addressed prior to concern over leadership roles. So, back to the original topic...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/06/01 4:57 AM
RE: Women in Ministry
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Wow-wislawa has quite the edge. You should be on crossfire, or politically incorrect you'd impress many. He said some rude things on my post too, and then proceded to slightly insert an agenda. Anyway, yes back to the subject, more discussion please, lets bring up some specific problems that are faced. For example in my old youth group, we had a youth intern who wasn't allowed to be hired b/c of gender...its a shame. I would suggest that the relative nature of the debate speaks loudly. Especially considering the fact that my favorite youth pastor of all time was a woman....she helped bring me to christ in a deeper sense than I already was. An instrument of god? Or someone who doesn't belong in the church? What is the implied threat, i just don't understand...more discussion!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/06/01 9:43 AM
Hmmmmm...
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Uh, just wondering. Has anyone one here deeply read "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" by John Piper and Wayne Grudem? Moreover, does anyone here actually read the publication put out by the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood? I'm just wondering if the people here are actually trying to honestly evaluate both sides of the issue. The reason I bring this up is very simple. For kicks and giggles, I took a Women in Ministry class. It was interesting because I found myself being the only male in the class. I figured it was a contraversial issue, so I wanted to try to actually figure out a stance on it. What I found so interesting was just how close-minded a lot of people were to the subject...on both sides of the subject. We were assigned all types of books, but we were NEVER assigned any complementarian works. I guess that basically assumed that we were to take the egalitarian CRITIQUES of the complementarian view as being sufficent for a good understanding of the complementarian view. "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" is pretty much the complementarian textbook...and we weren't even looking at it. I basically had to remind my teacher of this and tell her that I thought that it would be fruitful if we tried to read fully on BOTH perspectives before trying to make any real judgments. We were cool so she agreed. We did other stuff, too. What I found interesting about that class and the whole discussion in general is that it OFTEN drifted away from exegesis of the biblical text or even analysis of biblical themes into a vague realm of how people "feel" and their "callings". Oh, I was SO the devil's advocate in this class! LOL
So anyway, I realize that Doc, and probably most of the people here, are for CBE. HOWEVER, I would like to see just how many people here have given the other side a COMPLETELY fair hearing. Be honest, now!
Your brother in Christ and fellowseeker of truth,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/06/01 4:06 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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I applaud what you had to say about both sides, i'm soo guilty of that too often, could you recommend any other books? I can't stand piper...not after reading what he had to say about open theism...too arrogant about his positions...truly believes that boyder or any other open theist may not be saved...thats kind of an inside track thing that i've heard...so i would appreciate the name of any other authors...think i would carry an unfair bias you know! I'd love the names of any others though! peace-adam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
05/06/01 4:15 PM
RE: Hmmmmm...
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Mephi, in addition to reading the book, I spent the first twenty years of my life living “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood”—been there, done that, movin’ on… Most evangelical women don’t need a devil’s advocate to remind them of complementarian interpretations of scripture—they do need some genuine advocates to give them the courage to go against the hierarchical status quo. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/06/01 7:07 PM
RE: RE: Hmmmmm...
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To Boydreamer,
My thanks for the accolades. I think it's "Castor Oil" time. What do I mean by this. I understand that you have problems with John Piper. However, I would say that if one generally wants to know the salient arguments of the complementarian position, one absolutely MUST read "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" No way around that. If it means anything to you, the book is basically a compilation of articles by various writers, including Douglas Moo. Wayne Grudem has a considerable exegetical treatment in an appendix at the end of the book. Though it may pain you, I HIGHLY advise you to start with that. Search on, my brother!
To GDG,
This is just my opinion. I think that we can be able to separate the essence of the complementarian view from the hierarchical, oppressive "status quo" of which you speak. As I recall, many complementarians OPPOSE the rampant sexism that is seen in our churches. Would you disagree with that?
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/06/01 8:55 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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Mem-I'll take your advice...i trust you, it sounds like this book spoke loudly to you, and so I'll check it out...sometimes I let stuff like that get in my way you know...fundi's or liberals, we all can be narrow! Have you read much of greg boyd's stuff? I enjoy it, I truly wish that some of the hububb about his stuff would die down, i've had parents concerned with my "faith" and its direction b/c of things pastors have said about his theology and the influence it can have...sad, but I suppose i wouldn't be any better by making blanket statements about piper, i apologize..water under the bridge? on to more discussion!
I'm assuming that you are for the more complimentary train of thought...heres a question for you...what about the youth pastors and other such figures of authority that are women who have been influential, perhaps placed in my life by god?
peace brother's and sista's...adam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
05/07/01 8:19 AM
RE: RE: RE: Hmmmmm...
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Meph, so I guess you’d rather be a devil’s advocate than a genuine advocate? Ok, fine I’ll play along.
It is true that complementarians affirm that men and women are essentially equal, but they maintain a functional hierarchy. While complementarians feel this distinction exempts them from the charge of sexism, I don’t buy it. A similar distinction between essence and function was used by Christians who defended slavery, an institution I don’t think any of us would hesitate to call racist.
Growing up in a very healthy and successful version of a complementarian paradigm, I must still confess that I had sexist attitudes toward women in leadership positions—I was highly critical toward them, distrustful of them, and sceptical of the genuineness of their faith. If they were really listening to God, they would not be so proud and liberal. They were obviously proud and liberal because they presumed to take a leadership position even though they were women. I worried about their children and their marriages, because they must not be very good mothers or wives if they were so ambitiously pursuing their own interests. I was disappointed that a man wasn’t in their position instead, because then things would somehow be more successful and more spiritual. When a woman spoke or taught, I was distracted by her gender; when a men spoke or taught, I would listen to what he had to say. These are just a few examples of the attitude toward women in leadership positions I inherited, and I think they are fairly representative of others in my complementarian context.
So yes I agree that complementarians rhetorically oppose sexism, but functionally they impose it. The current evangelical status quo is based on hierarchical complementarian ideology.
Set free, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/07/01 9:47 AM
Composite Response
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Some notes.
1. This seems that it may be some type of hot spot for you. You first quote kind of makes that clear. Should we be careful of this in this discussion? I'll be honest. This is bringing back memories of my class for real. (Meph shivers) The only thing I want to make sure of is that we can keep this discussion passionate, yet rational, providing more light than heat.
2. I have a hard time seeing how YOUR individual experience, or even those of some you know, necessarily make the fundamental paradigms of the complimentarian position inadequate. Maybe you can help me see that.
3. I think that it can be fairly said that within the complimentarian position, there are gradations of how said position is carried out. Wayne Grudem is quite to the right, while Douglas Moo doesn't seem so far right. There is also a middle ground called "plural ministry", if I'm not mistaken.
4. You mention the Bible's use on racism. I would agree with you. However, many atheists use this line of thought and I'm going to tell you what I tell them. Just because a certain position is mishandled such that injustices frequently occur does not necessarily mean that the position itself has no good points.
5. A Question. Can you tell me the CHIEF reasoning behind the complimentarian position from THEIR terms? They have a statement of belief (Theirs was prior to CBE's. In reading CBE's statement, it is obvious that theirs was in REACTION to CBMW. Just point of interest) www.cbmw.org ...for if you need a refresher.
Boydreamer, I will try to answer you question as I have more time today or tomorrow. Maybe then I can give a more comprehensive answer. However, let me say this now. I am NOT a hardcore complementarian, at all. I will leave my actual position up in the air for now. Before I started reading any of the material of either side, I was darn near a radical egalitarian. But bottom line, the complementarian side has some good points (especially exegetical) that I feel have never solidly refuted by the egalitarian side.
Now, THIS is interesting, tackling subjects like these! Women in ministry. Homosexual ordination. Abortion. Heck, yeah! For the record , I think this complimentarian/egalitarian ties in significantly with the discussion of homosexual churches, homosexual ministers, and their calls to ministry from God. If you don't see the link now, it will be made clear later...
Toodles,
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
05/07/01 1:23 PM
RE: Composite Response
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1.
Meph: This seems that it may be some type of hot spot for you.
GDG: So what’s your point?
Meph: You first quote kind of makes that clear.
GDG: Do you mean my first post? Not sure what you’re referring to here.…
Meph: Should we be careful of this in this discussion?
GDG: Again, I’m not sure what you’re getting at.…
Meph: …The only thing I want to make sure of is that we can keep this discussion passionate, yet rational, providing more light than heat.
GDG: You know I’m with you on this.
2.
Meph: I have a hard time seeing how YOUR individual experience, or even those of some you know, necessarily make the fundamental paradigms of the complimentarian position inadequate. Maybe you can help me see that.
GDG: Gladly. One legitimate way to illustrate the inadequacies of the complementarian position is to counter its denial of sexism with personal experiences to the contrary, especially if these experiences are fairly representative of others. I granted that while complementarians espouse the essential equality of men and women, their theory about women’s functional submission is sexist in practice. Sexism is more of an empirical sociological phenomenon than a purely rational concept, another reason why experience is a legitimate consideration in this discussion.
3.
Meph: I think that it can be fairly said that within the complimentarian position, there are gradations of how said position is carried out. Wayne Grudem is quite to the right, while Douglas Moo doesn't seem so far right. There is also a middle ground called "plural ministry", if I'm not mistaken.
GDG: Granted.
4.
Meph: You mention the Bible's use on racism. I would agree with you. However, many atheists use this line of thought and I'm going to tell you what I tell them. Just because a certain position is mishandled such that injustices frequently occur does not necessarily mean that the position itself has no good points.
GDG: Can you give me an example of how the distinction between essence and function can be applied to another race without being racist?
5.
Meph: A Question. Can you tell me the CHIEF reasoning behind the complimentarian position from THEIR terms?
GDG: Yes I’m very familiar with the Danvers Statement. In THEIR terms, complementarians are defending the biblical view of manhood and womanhood against rampant cultural indifference and confusion toward matters of masculinity and femininity which are evidenced in unbiblical leadership roles in the church that damage Christian witness and undermine biblical authority, families in which homemaking and motherhood are devalued and abuse is increasing, and homosexuality.
Here is a quote that summarizes the urgency and importance of this issue for them: "God’s gift of complementary manhood and womanhood…is precious beyond estimation.…We believe that what is at stake in human sexuality is the very fabric of life as God wills it to be for the holiness of His people and for their saving mission to the world."
Meph: (Theirs was prior to CBE's. In reading CBE's statement, it is obvious that theirs was in REACTION to CBMW. Just point of interest)
GDG: So what’s your point?
Ciao, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mary33
05/07/01 6:14 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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Stimulating discussion - thanks, Ihaven't looked at this issue in a long time. When I was a young wife I wanted to serve Jesus with all of my being but my being was female and that meant I had limits upon my service. I believed they were biblical - from God, and that my own subjective FEELINGS should be set aside out of a greater obedience based on faith since I couldn't understand why my uterus made it wrong for me to do some of the things a man did, but his penis didn't give him any limits to what he could do for Jesus in this world. Hmmm.
While at seminary, I happened upon the works of CBE in the early 80's.
My life still looks in many ways to be typical of evangelical women but it is anything but that in my spirit. This is not about feelings (though after reading Emotional Intelligence I think we as a body of believers don't pay enough attention to them as we seek to know Jesus-as if our rational minds are all that is worthy of these discussion boards) this is truly about serving God. We are way more alike than different yet we focus so much of these debates on issues which were related to specific problems in specific churches for specific reasons. There are verses that hint at a radical change - that husbands should love their wives was a radical concept, that we are all one in Christ another. And on and on.. couldn't resist.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
05/07/01 11:37 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Hmmmmm...
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GDG:
I have to admit that I had similar feelings toward women in ministry when I was younger and first a Christian. When you wrote the paragraph stating that you had sexist attitudes toward women in leadership positions I could totally relate. What I find interesting, however, is that I came to know Christ in a personal way as the result of a godly woman who was in a leadership position. I thank God for women who are open to following where they believe God calling them in ministry!
Blessings,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/09/01 6:13 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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i think mary 33 eats to much hummus and has read "reviving ophelia one to many times..hehe...j/k....(mary 33 = my mom)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Browneyedgirl01
05/12/01 12:27 PM
RE: Hmmmmm...
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I was glad that you brought this book up, because I am currently reading it, and really liking it. It seems that there's this huge stereotype on the word "submission" that means a woman is not of complete value. Biblically, this whole submission issue means that just as Christ laid down His life for the church, so a man should lay down his life for his wife. (Eph.5:25) When the bible calls the man to be the leader of the family, it means that he needs to reflect the greatest leader of all-Jesus Christ..the greatest SERVANT leader. Therefore, a man is called to be the leader of his home, and serve his wife wholeheartedly in a way that makes her the best and brings her gifts out to the fullest, and in return, how could we not submit to a man like that? When a woman is having trouble submitting to her husband, then her husband is probably not leading her in a godly way. When a husband is the "head", a woman's gifts and abilities are still fully brought out and nothing less than a compliment to her husbands gifts. I could go on more, but if you want to read up on what the scripture points out instead of me, you can check out these:
1 cor. 14:34-35, col.3:18, eph. 5:22-24, 1 tim 2:11-12, titus 2:5, 1 peter 3:1-6, gen 2, 1 cor 11:3, 1 tim 2:13-14.
If you could please, send me some verses that support the egalitarian view on this issue.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Browneyedgirl01
05/12/01 12:54 PM
Re.Hmmmmmm-Women in the Church Response
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Our opinions matter, but they don't hold a good fight when it comes to what Scripture has to say. On this issue of women and authority in church, I would like to support what the bible says about this issue:
Women have spiritual gifts -1 corinthians 12:7-11 (now, to each one..)
Women need to use these gifts- 1 Peter 4:10
These gifts are important to the growth of the church--1 corinthians 12:12-26
BUT THEY ARE RESTRICTED- (1Timothy 2:8-15)--This scripture holds two restrictions.
1, they are not to teach christian doctrine to men
2, they are not to excercise authority directly over men in the church
The main spiritual gift that is controversial is the one of teaching.
God does give women the gift of teaching, but is clear when He says that women should excersise that teaching of doctrine only over other women. We are not limited in speaking, or in teaching, but when it comes to authority in the church, we are restricted. God has given us women numerous gifts that He desires us to use, but gifts are to be used correctly in glorifying Him. We did nothing or do nothing to deserve those gifts, but they do come with instruction.
If anyone would like to respond to this in saying that Paul's instruction to women is purely cultural, then please back that up with the correct contextual interpretation of scripture.--our opinions aren't strong enough.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
robkat
05/12/01 3:08 PM
RE: Women in Ministry
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I also think that if women have the gift to hold the leadership role, there shouldn't be anything to hold them back. There was a wonderful women that inspired me to have a close personal relationship with God and I thank her for being brave and using her gift of leadship abilities to inspire me.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Browneyedgirl01
05/13/01 1:56 PM
RE: RE: Women in Ministry
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I agree with you robkat that women have the gift of leadership..infact that is my first spiritual gift. Women are natural leaders and God wants us to use that to glorify Him..and that doesn't mean that only leadership positions can be held in a church, there are many other oppurtunities to use that gift..just being a leader in heart will lead so many to Christ by the example we set as we live our life everyday.
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