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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
boydreamer101
05/09/01 6:18 PM
IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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I got into a discussion last night with a bunch of fellas in my dorm..kind of a bible study...we discussed masturbation. My question is this. The bible doesn't seem to address this, it does adress lust however, is there a difference? Is there such a thing as non-lustful masturbation? Many guys on my floor will be reading this in the next week, so everyone RESPOND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! A group of 25 guys who want to know what the arguments are...MASTURBATION DOES IT RUB US THE WRONG WAY? hehe..but seriously...let us know what you think.
Concerned and passionate fellas-(adam typing this!)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
spiderman222
05/09/01 9:39 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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That is an interesting question, I guess it depends on whether or not you are able to masterbate without lusting. I would think this would be hard to do but I think it could be done. I personally have opted not to risk it and not masturbate at all. I have enough trouble with lust as it is and I really don't need any more. I have been going without masturbation for all my life so it is possible to not do it. There isn't really any real need for it. I know you will argue that there could be potential problems with sperm build-up and that you need to masturbate to release this or medical problems will arise. This is not true, your body will adapt and will use other methods of excretion (if you really want to know, I'll tell you later). So if there is no real biological reason for it then it is just for our own pleasure which could be easily turn into lust. I'm not saying it's definate but why risk it?(billy)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/09/01 11:15 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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First i'd have to ask what the purpose of it would be? Masturbation doesn't really seem to serve any Godly purpose, only to give pleasure to one's self. Your idea of masturbation without lust seems to be simply a means of gratifying the desires of the flesh (i.e. bringing pleasured feelings) without the actual lusting. Not only that, but it can lead to other things as well. Whenever you get into the area of physical pleasure your body is always going to be wanting more. Why would you want to even take the risk? It just doesn't seem like something worth doing. Stay away from it, you can have a perfectly good relationship with Christ without physical pleasures.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/10/01 1:13 AM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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I'll try to say something serious later. But for now all I can say is:
Finally, something Calvinists, Arminians, and OVers have in common!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
drew_182
05/10/01 1:24 AM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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This (the preceeding post) seems to indicate that any physical pleasure that is not directly glorifying to God is in the same boat as masterbation and that it is wrong.
So, do you believe that when in a male/female relationship that kissing is any different? Your original post would indicate no. How would it differ from say... eating out and ordering a dessert, that in no way is glorifying God, simply satisfying a bodily pleasure. You would have a hard time convincing me that eating dessert is wrong because it doesn't glorify God.
I think masterbation is a means of control and release that could glorify God in that you could use it to control lust. I have heard this teaching more than once.
It becomes sinful if you
A. Use pornographic material
B. Let it become an addiction and it controls you
C. If you physically hurt yourself in the process.
The act of masterbation itself is not sinful. Use the analogy of the dessert again. If you let it control you or you begin to physically harm yourself, it would be wrong to continue to allow your eating habits to control you.
So I would have to say that masturbation is not wrong in and of itself. Some might say that a fence has been built around it, meaning that masturbation is something that resembles sin, but itself is not. So just to be careful we aren't sinning, we don't do anything that seems to be within the area of the fence we've built.
I think this is totally acceptable and that sometimes we need a fence, BUT each person's fence(s) is not universal. Some who struggle with lust may find that staying away from masturbation is a useful fence in controling lust. Others might find that staying away from other acts help them in their personal walk.
I think all the posts so far are valid, and useful, each coming from a different perspective. I am just adding another.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
05/10/01 1:47 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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It might help to know that some prominent Evangelicals such as Dr. Dobson (and Doc himself if I’m not mistaken) have argued that masturbation is a normal and healthy part of growing up. My own personal opinion is that Dr. Dobson signals the downfall of all civilization and should by tried for crimes against American children, but hey that’s just my opinion.
The nice thing about this chatroom is that anonymity makes confession soooo much easier. Masturbation is something I would rather not have ever struggled with and I have tried unsuccessfully to rid myself of what I still believe is a sin. There is something intuitive about it for me that lets me know that it’s wrong. If I can’t trust my gut on this one I don’t know if I could trust it on anything. Plus look at the company it keeps. Some habits keep good company and some keep bad company. I think this is one of the ways in which we know if something is right or wrong, by looking at the company it keeps.
I’m a little bit surprised to see that only one post has said it’s o.k. so far. This view is growing and perhaps its right. But SINce SK taught us that these things are subjective my final position is that it might be all right for someone else to do it but it is defiantly wrong for me to do it. One of the dangers of subjectivity is that it is easier to compromise and hold yourself to a lower standard than we hold others. My way of compensating (perhaps I am over-compensating) is to be harder on myself than on everyone else (honestly no pun intended).
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
boydreamer101
05/10/01 3:24 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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The discussion that guys in my dorm had was pretty heated...some were outright mad at the fact that some fellas weren't feeling convicted of it, and had in fact prayed about the very issue without recieving conviction...if they spoke honestly what then? They even asked for more prayer on the subject so that if conviction was needed they would find it! I am not arguing for or against...neither was my original post....for now my question...What if someone after prayer is not feeling convicted at all? Are all people who masturbate w/o conviction...simply jerks? hehe...peace
are there any significant theologians who support this? oh did you say dobson does?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 12:19 AM
RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Drew said: "I think masterbation is a means of control and release that could glorify God in that you could use it to control lust."
YOU think that it's a good way to control lust, but is that what GOD thinks, or even the BIBLE speaks about? Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of using masturbation as a form of controlling lust. That totally contradicts the overall message of Jesus, which is life through transformation of inward nature, as opposed to gaining righteousness by outward acts. Using masturbation to control lust not only is a way of trying to gain righeousness by outward acts, but it's also much like saying "I'm going to control my alcohaulic nature by only having enough to satisfy my desire, and not letting it get out of control." Obviously someone saying that would have no idea that what it takes to satisfy your desire, or craving, will change rapidly every time you indulge in it. That is the whole plan of Satan. Much like the old saying goes, "If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk." You cannot simply use something that LEADS to lust, as a means of CONTROLLING lust. That makes absoloutely no sense! I'm not meaning to be rude, but this issue is very important, and it's part of the reason why so many Christian men are falling into pornography. Do you know of anyone in the Bible who used masturbation as a form of controlling lust? Not Jesus, or any of his disciples. Certainly not Job, he speaks of making a "covenant with his eyes". You won't find it among David's Godly habits, or Solomon's. Anyone who teaches masturbation as a form of controlling lust is either:
1. Trying to think up some sort of justification for their out of control habit of masturbation, which they secretly hide in shame.
or
2. Totally decieved!
In regards to your relating masturbation to the consumption of desserts, and of kissing in a relationship, as forms of physical pleasure: First of all, kissing is not primarily practiced as a form of pleasure, at least not by Christians who are walking with Jesus on a daily basis. Kissing is a way of expressing love between the two people involved, also a means of further uniting together. The purpose of desserts should not be pleasure either, but a way of having a variety in your meal. Personally, I rather get sick of the bland (spelling?) food that I eat during a meal by the time I am finished. However, there is still hunger within me, so I decide to have something different, enter the dessert. Eating primarily for the purpose of pleasure can lead to out of control eating habits, which is why there is such a high rate of overweight people in America! This country is sooo obsessed with producing food that tastes good, smells good, looks good, and creates desires and cravings within each person that sets their eyes on it. I've often been told that people resort to eating when they are bored. Why do you think that is?? Because it creates PLEASURE! It says somewhere in proverbs that when you dine with someone you are to look carefully at what is before you, and put the knife to your throat if you give in to gluttony. Now, obviously we are not to kill ourselves simply for over-eating, that statement is just an exageration of the point being made. That point is: pleasure is not a reason, excuse, or justification for ANYTHING that we do.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 12:29 AM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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boydreamer,
You speak of people who practice it praying and yet not recieving conviction. My question to you is, just because someone doesn't recieve conviction, does that make it right? There are several times where I have prayed about an issue, not recieved any conviction, then assuming it was not wrong I went ahead and did it, only leading to TERRIBLE results. We need to dig in past the outward act itself, and move down deep into the very core of it's being. Here are some questions that would help us with that:
1. Why do people practice it?
2. How does it effect those who practice it?
3. How does it effect the lives of those around the people who practice it?
4. What are the results of practicing it?
5. Does it always become addictive and habit forming?
6. What leads one to practice it?
I'm sure there are many more questions that can be asked to help us identify the root of this act. But for now, let's just stick to these main questions. I look forward to everyone's answers.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/12/01 2:45 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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In your post you asked some good questions-
1. Why do people practice it?
Any answer is mere speculation, coupled with some possible verses that may or may not directly be addressing the issue.
2. How does it effect those who practice it?
Hasn't affected me, I don't see much effect, but your sort of argument would suggest that there are unseen effects or that the majority of people who jerk it and are christian also have problems with porn...my suggestion is that most people do this and that a smaller amount are into pornography. But this too is my subjective opinion...w/o conviction..and i walk daily with conviction..i'm sorry that this doesn't phase your thinking, but when i or anyone else is convicted of EVERYTHING but not this...well....? Your answer seemed like an attempt to actualize your moral experience..not trying to be rude.
3. How does it effect the lives of those around the people who practice it?
I don't know, i think if it is being done it should be done b4 marriage primarily and in private, but each to his own i guess! ha.! Most people don't look for the effects of their jerking off..especially since they most others do it already anyway.
4. What are the results of practicing it?
I would suggest that any universal attempt to say "what the results are" are misguided and totally subjective at best. It is possible to say that masturbation if controlling a person may have certain effects. I just don't think that your reasoning is very clean cut...rather subjective...my point, then, is that if each person is having different feelings, theologians are even divided, having read several books by christian authors who support it...i just wonder if we cannot know....for sure....then maybe we should pray for conviction...have others pray...so go ahead and pray..please, b/c obviously your convicted....your reasoning didn't convince me...i want to be convinced if it is in fact wrong, but it'll take more than these attempts to objectify what is a very sticky issue...hehe...is it possible to be convicted of different things by the same god? Hmmm...
5. Does it always become addictive and habit forming?
No, i'm not addicted at all...neither are most of the christian guys i know. The guys on my floor, hence our questioning this issue.
6. What leads one to practice it?
What leads one to do anything...this sort of psychological question is absolutely subjective...once again....who knows...who cares...not anything discernably wrong in most situations...perhaps the occasional addiction whatever that would suggest that it isn't a healthy habbit.
You suggest that a person is simply trying to justify...i would also suggest that while this may be true in some situations, perhaps you are trying to actualize or universalize your convictions or moral experiences, b/c they won't seem as real to you if others are happy and absolutely fine with masturbation whence you cannot enjoy yourself....just playing devils advocate for many people who are reading this. peace-adam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
05/12/01 3:49 PM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Tom said:
"I'll try to say something serious later. But for now all I can say is: Finally, something Calvinists, Arminians, and OVers have in common!"
So. Finally someone brave enough to tackle this question on an evangelical site. Whoo-hoo!!! Y'all embarrassed 'bout this subject? Wow! I don't even think the Bible is that embarrassed with such things. Sure, it doesn't mention it specifically, but it does talk about a host of other things that many Christians might find rather embarrassing to talk about. Now, seeing as this question was brought up. Let me ask how does Christ's humanity relate to this question? We talked about if Jesus ever "erred" in another thread. How does this subject relate to that question? Or is this too embarrassing too? Too sacriligious. If it is something that all Calvinists, Arminians and OVers have in common, is it not also something all boys have in common? Jesus was a boy. I think it is great that CVM would allow this question to stand. Shows they are pretty tolerant about alot of views and asking some "extreme" questions. Soooo, boydreamer? How are the Palmer sisters?
Lightening up,
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 11:21 PM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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When I read your post I get this picture in my mind of a little boy yelling at his Father, saying "you can't force your beliefs on me!"
Doesn't conviction usualy come as a result of sin? Okay, so if it does, then why is it not sin for you if other people are feeling convicted? Are you going to claim that sin is relative, and not absoloute? If a majority of Christians are feeling convicted as a result of masturbation, why would it only be wrong for them? You keep trying to say that just because it's wrong for one person doesn't mean it's wrong for you. That is what secular humanists claim about morality. They view it as something totally relative, not as absoloute.
You treat masturbation as something that is just as normal as breathing. If that's the case, then why do we not read about any of the great Christians of the Bible practicing it?
Pardon me for being a bit graphic, but masturbation is something that involves the same motions as sex. You are taking the pleasure part of sex and saying you can practice it free from lust or anything else, while claiming it's just as normal as anything else we do. Your only goal is to bring pleasure to yourself, there are no other reasons involved. Do you think that practicing something regularly that has self-indulgence as it's only justification is of any value?
You also claim that only a small amount of Christians who practice masturbation regularly also get involved with pornography of some sort. I recently heard a statistic that around 75% of Christian men have in some way been involved in pornography. Does that sound like a small amount to you? Perhaps this is the result of the large amount of Christians that regularly practice masturbation, as you claim.
You say that you aren't addicted? Try going a month without it.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
bdsahli
05/13/01 2:22 PM
RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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i have been in a bible study situation where this has come up several times. we all pretty much come to the conclusion that we know/think that it is wrong. most struggle with the lust aspect of it and it seems to become addictive to them. masturbation itself seems to be a gateway to other sin like pornography and lust. but even if you are able to masturbale without the worldly sinful aspects of it i must ask, what then is the intent? it feels good? temporary self gradification? god gave us a soul and this is the difference between us and animals, we can decide we do not need to masturbate to survive. i believe that it is a gateway that we can avoid. the difference between self gradifying sweets and self gradifying actions? its a fine line to sucessfully argue. there is only the biblical argument of lust. we do need to eat to survive and as i mentioned earlier we do not need to masturbate to survive. if one really thinks/argues there is no difference between sweets and masturbation then just simply dont do either.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CumGranoSalis
05/13/01 7:40 PM
RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Here is what I have to say about the whole thing. It is obvious that there are many other things in this world that are just as debatable as this topic and in many cases there would be just as much discussion about what is right and what is wrong. Now, for some you might argue that because you are not feeling as though God is convicting you with your actions, that it is fair to say that masturbation is not sinful. I would like to clear some things up for you, in a very loving way. First of all, Adam, you would most likely argue that it is realistic to believe that masturbation is a natural occurrence and should be viewed so in sight of the fact that our bodies have a need to dispose of certain fluids. To that, I would first off like to indicate that there are absolutely no medical indications that show that a lack of masturbation in one's schedule will lead to anything diminishing to the body. It is fair to state from the opposite point of view that there is nothing medically harmful about masturbation, so long as it is done in mediocrity. However, if one were to look at things from an objective point of view, whether to be focused on the sinful nature or not, simply looking at the physical tendency of the human body, realizing that there is nothing harmful about going without masturbation, then what is the harm in trying to go a month without it. Whether it is a tool of controlling lust or removing unnecessary body fluids, it seems to me that since there is nothing harmful about not doing it, that there should be no reason to not do it, even if simply for the sake of proving us all wrong.
Also, look at the fact that we as men were set up with a reproductive system that basically takes care of itself. Needless to say, many men have never or barely ever had a "wet dream" or nocturnal emission before because of their masturbation habits. This is very shady in the respect that there should be something to be said for a God who makes a body that will remove this fluid from out body without our help. I am not trying to say that we should then get into a discussion about why then is our nocturnal emissions a sin as well, because first off, I would comment and say that we are helpless while sleeping, and second I would recommend prayer for God to guard each and everyone of our hearts as we go to sleep in order to secure our minds and bodies while we are helpless to the exterior world, and also in a sense to our mind's creative process. I would simply mention that it is our duty to keep prayerful as it is mention in 1 Thessalonians 5:17.
On the other hand, looking at it in light of both physical and spiritual intent, it is important to admit that there is much in this world that we as humans are incapable of seeing. We are spiritual beings, however we are also physical beings and we are not always aware of the spiritual battle that is going on during our every action, both good and bad. I think that it is very important to look at the fact that both society and our own mental thought process play a major role in who we are as humans in this world. Society tells us many things in the media that I am sure, hands down, would be not acceptable from a Christian standpoint. Many want to say that topics such as masturbation are not as important as many other things, however, I am not going to try to change that statement and say there are not other things that are important, such as salvation, however, by coming together in love, without trying to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, we can come together in unity and grow into Him who is at the foot of the church. (Reference to Ephesians 4: 14-15). I think that it is important to realize that from a spiritual level we are to hold each other accountable for all that is neglecting from our walk with Christ. I for one fall short in numerous areas of my life, and I need others to help me see where I am settling.
It is important to see that the devil's desires are to lie to us and torment us with sins as to draw away from the loving relationship with the Father. I would not be so brass as to say that a reference to John 8:49 "He who belongs to the father hears what God says. The reason why you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” for I think that just as my belief that masturbation is wrong, so I try to stop, where I am guilty of other lusts and sins, I would also be just as able to fit into that category as any other. However, I do hold to the validity of the statement in the sense that we are all to look at how we are falling short. The devil has embedded lies into our lives since the moment we were conceived. For as we are on this world, he is the ruler of this world, understanding that he is somewhat on a chain, asking for permission from God to do much of his handiwork in our lives. (I.e. Job, Luke 22:31-32 - satan ASKING to sift Simon as wheat.)
Anyway, to look directly at the subject at hand, we must find who God wants us to be past all of our desires, past all of our longings. Even though we may have innocent intentions, we are not always innocent. Ignorance is not bliss and we must seek out the righteousness that God has for our lives in order to come to the fullness that God has for us. I am not trying to condemn you or anyone else, because the truth is that I suffer from temptation and sin in many areas of my life, this one included. I think that it is very important to realize that in many ways, it is only fair to acknowledge that many things in our lives are subjective to ourselves, however there is too much of a lust for individualism in the church today. Too many are seeking out what is truth for themselves instead of what the one true truth is in God. I am sure that we will never come to know for certain what the truth is until God enlightens us to such, however, as Triskal replied, sin is universal and to add on, all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3: 10-23). Please take all of this into accord and with a grain of salt. For, though your opinions may vary, it is simply my intention to seek the path of righteousness, past my sinful nature and turn to the truth and cling to it.
Adam, if nothing else enlightens you, look at it like this, I do not support this last idea as the way to approach anything, because it is basing it off of a chance, rather than faith, but I do support the idea because it makes people think. Maybe by putting it on a level that you are very well bread in, the movie industry, this may have a lasting impact. In the movie Finding Forrester, there is a line in which Sean Connery says that ... just as prayer is useful because it doesn't hurt in case there is error in one's thoughts of truth, because in light of this topic, if you are wrong, and masturbation is sinful, taking into context that there is nothing harmful about not masturbating, wouldn't it be better to be safe then sorry over riding the fence in a gray area in which no one can for sure point to a bible verse that says word for word, do not masturbate. I don't know, the simple argument out of that, would be to say that what is natural feels natural, and yada yada yada, you know what I am saying, however, it is important to realize that all the teachings in the world are not going to make a sin become pure. Adam, all of this is said in love and I want you to know that I care about you and I want you to come to see how in this area, I truly believe that the lack of conviction is a simple tool from the devil to make it even easier to tilt your path away from God in any area of your life that he can, just as he does to each and every one of us, because that is his job. Adam, I love you as a brother in Christ and I ask forgiveness for anything that I have done to hinder your relationship with God. Thank you for being a great friend and neighbor this year. I hope and pray that God will touch you in a mighty way this summer with Billy. Adam, just know that in light of the fact that God desires all of us to come to know Him, past all of our knowledge and past all of our insight on any subject, I would like you to know that I am praying that God will show you the truth, not only in this subject, but in every aspect of you life.
~Triskal, I really dig what you said in your reply, it all makes a lot of
sense.
Let all of this marinate for a little while, let me know what ya think!
In His Love,
Michael J. Towle
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CumGranoSalis
05/13/01 7:37 PM
RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Adam, thanks for the fact that you care enough to write this down and ask people what they think about the subject. It shows you care alot about what I think and are curious as to what others think as well. Thank you very Much and God bless you on your path to the truth!!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 1:32 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Triskal
Ok, when I said that masterbation could be a means of control I simply believe that in moderation that it can chemically change your body and after you have done it, cause you to be less "lustfull." At least in my experience and from what other's have told me I have found that after the release that you do not have the same sex drive, a sex drive which could easily lead to lust. Next, of course this is what I think, you ask what GOD thinks and what the BIBLE says, so what do YOU think it says and where does it say that masterbation can in no way be positive. You say it "totally contradicts the overall message of Jesus, which is life through transformation of inward nature." So who decides what inward natures needed to be transformed? You seem to have taken the liberty to decide this, thus eliminating any chance of me responding. I suggest to you that in general we should transform our human nature, however that doesn't mean that every act we do as humans is objectively negative. Of course this is once again just my opinion. You also state that "it's also much like saying 'I'm going to control my alcohaulic nature by only having enough to satisfy my desire, and not letting it get out of control.'" Well, I would restate to say that "I will learn how to control my use of alcohol by using it in moderation thus preventing an addiction or submission to it." Your statement supposes that it is already a sin we are trapped in, I disagree. I don't think you would say that alcohol is inherantly evil, the abuse of it is. I would say the same of masturbation. You say "that what it takes to satisfy your desire, or craving, will change rapidly every time you indulge in it." Why do you say that? My parents drink, every time they do it they don't need more, they've have developed a healthy habbit of control. I feel as though drinking is a good analogy for masturbation (better than dessert, or kissing (which by the way was an awesome response to my question about kissing, thanks!)) Anyway, it's one of those things which can and often does lead to sin (lust) just as drinking can and does lead to sin (violence, etc.) but each is not wrong in and of itself. And I have nothing against your attack on pornography, it is evil, and yes many Christian fall this trap. But that is not justification for calling masturbation a flat out sin. Thanks for the response. I just simply disagree.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 2:14 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Mike
you say:
"I would first off like to indicate that there are absolutely no medical indications that show that a lack of masturbation in one's schedule will lead to anything diminishing to the body."
I have a friend who was taking Propecia for hair loss and had those pesky sexual side effects. Well, he couldn't get it up and so he could not masturbate for the months he was using the meds. He began pooping out his semen. Normal? Probably not. But I know he was not to thilled that he had semen in his poo.
"there should be something to be said for a God who makes a body that will remove this fluid from out body without our help"
So, Mike, what about the family that doesn't take their kid to the doctor because 'God will take care of it', and the kid dies. Same thing as what you said above. Sometimes we do do things to our bodies to help them out. You say that the body is equiped to take care of this but then go on to say:
"I am not trying to say that we should then get into a discussion about why then is our nocturnal emissions a sin as well, because first off, I would comment and say that we are helpless while sleeping, and second I would recommend prayer for God to guard each and everyone of our hearts as we go to sleep in order to secure our minds and bodies while we are helpless to the exterior world, and also in a sense to our mind's creative process. I would simply mention that it is our duty to keep prayerful as it is mention in 1 Thessalonians 5:17."
So you say we are helpless, but yet should pray. You pretty much indicate that wet dreams are sinning, even if you didn't mean to. And maybe that discussion is relevent. If we should use prayer to protect our minds, and wet dreams are not sins, then what are we protecting ourselves from? Anyway, I would suggest that wet dreams are not sin. And that masturbation is a concious wet dream, and not sin either.
You also state:
"It is important to see that the devil's desires are to lie to us and torment us with sins as to draw away from the loving relationship with the Father. I would not be so brass as to say that a reference to John 8:49 "He who belongs to the father hears what God says. The reason why you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”"
Why do you assume that we are the one's decieved and that you know the objective truth. Seems to me that you are being decieved and are made to feel guilt (which satan can use), and guilt can really hurt people. (at this point as I was writting this response, you came into my room and dropped you pants, lol (this is not a joke, he really did!))
Next you say:
"there is too much of a lust for individualism in the church today. Too many are seeking out what is truth for themselves instead of what the one true truth is in God. "
1. What is the one true truth that is God?
2. It is only YOUR opinion that there is too much individualism.
3. Aren't we called to seek out for ourselves, what is truth. Is that not the whole point of choosing Jesus.
Then you say: "Adam, if nothing else enlightens you, look at it like this"
I find this very offensive. You assume that because Adam doesn't agree with you that he is unenlightened.
You also say "I truly believe that the lack of conviction is a simple tool from the devil to make it even easier to tilt your path away from God in any area of your life that he can"
So Satan has the power to intercept the Holy Spirit's convictions thus causing us to sin.
I think you need to admit that the possibility of you being wrong about this, exists. I admit that the possibility of me being wrong exist, and I know Adam does as well. Don't go into it thinking that you are enlightened and we are not.
And as Adam has stated before, I think the internet is impersonal, so I make no personal attacks upon you. I love you dude!
werd
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
drew_182
05/14/01 2:24 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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THE LAST TWO POST WERE ACTUALLY FROM DREW_182 EXCEPT I WAS SIGNED ON UNDER BOYDREAMER (ADAM'S NAME).
SORRY,
Drew
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 2:31 AM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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ATTENTION ATTENTION
THE LAST TWO POSTS WERE A FRIEND OF MINE LOGGED IN UNDER MY NAME....DREW182 IS WHO THE LAST TWO BOYDREAMER POSTS WERE FROM!!!!! HE DIDNT REALIZE HE WAS LOGGED IN UNDER MY NAME!
Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
boydreamer101
05/09/01 6:18 PM
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I got into a discussion last night with a bunch of fellas in my dorm..kind of a bible study...we discussed masturbation. My question is this. The bible doesn't seem to address this, it does adress lust however, is there a difference? Is there such a thing as non-lustful masturbation? Many guys on my floor will be reading this in the next week, so everyone RESPOND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! A group of 25 guys who want to know what the arguments are...MASTURBATION DOES IT RUB US THE WRONG WAY? hehe..but seriously...let us know what you think.
Concerned and passionate fellas-(adam typing this!)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
spiderman222
05/09/01 9:39 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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That is an interesting question, I guess it depends on whether or not you are able to masterbate without lusting. I would think this would be hard to do but I think it could be done. I personally have opted not to risk it and not masturbate at all. I have enough trouble with lust as it is and I really don't need any more. I have been going without masturbation for all my life so it is possible to not do it. There isn't really any real need for it. I know you will argue that there could be potential problems with sperm build-up and that you need to masturbate to release this or medical problems will arise. This is not true, your body will adapt and will use other methods of excretion (if you really want to know, I'll tell you later). So if there is no real biological reason for it then it is just for our own pleasure which could be easily turn into lust. I'm not saying it's definate but why risk it?(billy)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/09/01 11:15 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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First i'd have to ask what the purpose of it would be? Masturbation doesn't really seem to serve any Godly purpose, only to give pleasure to one's self. Your idea of masturbation without lust seems to be simply a means of gratifying the desires of the flesh (i.e. bringing pleasured feelings) without the actual lusting. Not only that, but it can lead to other things as well. Whenever you get into the area of physical pleasure your body is always going to be wanting more. Why would you want to even take the risk? It just doesn't seem like something worth doing. Stay away from it, you can have a perfectly good relationship with Christ without physical pleasures.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/10/01 1:13 AM
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I'll try to say something serious later. But for now all I can say is:
Finally, something Calvinists, Arminians, and OVers have in common!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
drew_182
05/10/01 1:24 AM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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This (the preceeding post) seems to indicate that any physical pleasure that is not directly glorifying to God is in the same boat as masterbation and that it is wrong.
So, do you believe that when in a male/female relationship that kissing is any different? Your original post would indicate no. How would it differ from say... eating out and ordering a dessert, that in no way is glorifying God, simply satisfying a bodily pleasure. You would have a hard time convincing me that eating dessert is wrong because it doesn't glorify God.
I think masterbation is a means of control and release that could glorify God in that you could use it to control lust. I have heard this teaching more than once.
It becomes sinful if you
A. Use pornographic material
B. Let it become an addiction and it controls you
C. If you physically hurt yourself in the process.
The act of masterbation itself is not sinful. Use the analogy of the dessert again. If you let it control you or you begin to physically harm yourself, it would be wrong to continue to allow your eating habits to control you.
So I would have to say that masturbation is not wrong in and of itself. Some might say that a fence has been built around it, meaning that masturbation is something that resembles sin, but itself is not. So just to be careful we aren't sinning, we don't do anything that seems to be within the area of the fence we've built.
I think this is totally acceptable and that sometimes we need a fence, BUT each person's fence(s) is not universal. Some who struggle with lust may find that staying away from masturbation is a useful fence in controling lust. Others might find that staying away from other acts help them in their personal walk.
I think all the posts so far are valid, and useful, each coming from a different perspective. I am just adding another.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
05/10/01 1:47 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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It might help to know that some prominent Evangelicals such as Dr. Dobson (and Doc himself if I’m not mistaken) have argued that masturbation is a normal and healthy part of growing up. My own personal opinion is that Dr. Dobson signals the downfall of all civilization and should by tried for crimes against American children, but hey that’s just my opinion.
The nice thing about this chatroom is that anonymity makes confession soooo much easier. Masturbation is something I would rather not have ever struggled with and I have tried unsuccessfully to rid myself of what I still believe is a sin. There is something intuitive about it for me that lets me know that it’s wrong. If I can’t trust my gut on this one I don’t know if I could trust it on anything. Plus look at the company it keeps. Some habits keep good company and some keep bad company. I think this is one of the ways in which we know if something is right or wrong, by looking at the company it keeps.
I’m a little bit surprised to see that only one post has said it’s o.k. so far. This view is growing and perhaps its right. But SINce SK taught us that these things are subjective my final position is that it might be all right for someone else to do it but it is defiantly wrong for me to do it. One of the dangers of subjectivity is that it is easier to compromise and hold yourself to a lower standard than we hold others. My way of compensating (perhaps I am over-compensating) is to be harder on myself than on everyone else (honestly no pun intended).
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
boydreamer101
05/10/01 3:24 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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The discussion that guys in my dorm had was pretty heated...some were outright mad at the fact that some fellas weren't feeling convicted of it, and had in fact prayed about the very issue without recieving conviction...if they spoke honestly what then? They even asked for more prayer on the subject so that if conviction was needed they would find it! I am not arguing for or against...neither was my original post....for now my question...What if someone after prayer is not feeling convicted at all? Are all people who masturbate w/o conviction...simply jerks? hehe...peace
are there any significant theologians who support this? oh did you say dobson does?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 12:19 AM
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Drew said: "I think masterbation is a means of control and release that could glorify God in that you could use it to control lust."
YOU think that it's a good way to control lust, but is that what GOD thinks, or even the BIBLE speaks about? Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of using masturbation as a form of controlling lust. That totally contradicts the overall message of Jesus, which is life through transformation of inward nature, as opposed to gaining righteousness by outward acts. Using masturbation to control lust not only is a way of trying to gain righeousness by outward acts, but it's also much like saying "I'm going to control my alcohaulic nature by only having enough to satisfy my desire, and not letting it get out of control." Obviously someone saying that would have no idea that what it takes to satisfy your desire, or craving, will change rapidly every time you indulge in it. That is the whole plan of Satan. Much like the old saying goes, "If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk." You cannot simply use something that LEADS to lust, as a means of CONTROLLING lust. That makes absoloutely no sense! I'm not meaning to be rude, but this issue is very important, and it's part of the reason why so many Christian men are falling into pornography. Do you know of anyone in the Bible who used masturbation as a form of controlling lust? Not Jesus, or any of his disciples. Certainly not Job, he speaks of making a "covenant with his eyes". You won't find it among David's Godly habits, or Solomon's. Anyone who teaches masturbation as a form of controlling lust is either:
1. Trying to think up some sort of justification for their out of control habit of masturbation, which they secretly hide in shame.
or
2. Totally decieved!
In regards to your relating masturbation to the consumption of desserts, and of kissing in a relationship, as forms of physical pleasure: First of all, kissing is not primarily practiced as a form of pleasure, at least not by Christians who are walking with Jesus on a daily basis. Kissing is a way of expressing love between the two people involved, also a means of further uniting together. The purpose of desserts should not be pleasure either, but a way of having a variety in your meal. Personally, I rather get sick of the bland (spelling?) food that I eat during a meal by the time I am finished. However, there is still hunger within me, so I decide to have something different, enter the dessert. Eating primarily for the purpose of pleasure can lead to out of control eating habits, which is why there is such a high rate of overweight people in America! This country is sooo obsessed with producing food that tastes good, smells good, looks good, and creates desires and cravings within each person that sets their eyes on it. I've often been told that people resort to eating when they are bored. Why do you think that is?? Because it creates PLEASURE! It says somewhere in proverbs that when you dine with someone you are to look carefully at what is before you, and put the knife to your throat if you give in to gluttony. Now, obviously we are not to kill ourselves simply for over-eating, that statement is just an exageration of the point being made. That point is: pleasure is not a reason, excuse, or justification for ANYTHING that we do.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 12:29 AM
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boydreamer,
You speak of people who practice it praying and yet not recieving conviction. My question to you is, just because someone doesn't recieve conviction, does that make it right? There are several times where I have prayed about an issue, not recieved any conviction, then assuming it was not wrong I went ahead and did it, only leading to TERRIBLE results. We need to dig in past the outward act itself, and move down deep into the very core of it's being. Here are some questions that would help us with that:
1. Why do people practice it?
2. How does it effect those who practice it?
3. How does it effect the lives of those around the people who practice it?
4. What are the results of practicing it?
5. Does it always become addictive and habit forming?
6. What leads one to practice it?
I'm sure there are many more questions that can be asked to help us identify the root of this act. But for now, let's just stick to these main questions. I look forward to everyone's answers.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/12/01 2:45 PM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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In your post you asked some good questions-
1. Why do people practice it?
Any answer is mere speculation, coupled with some possible verses that may or may not directly be addressing the issue.
2. How does it effect those who practice it?
Hasn't affected me, I don't see much effect, but your sort of argument would suggest that there are unseen effects or that the majority of people who jerk it and are christian also have problems with porn...my suggestion is that most people do this and that a smaller amount are into pornography. But this too is my subjective opinion...w/o conviction..and i walk daily with conviction..i'm sorry that this doesn't phase your thinking, but when i or anyone else is convicted of EVERYTHING but not this...well....? Your answer seemed like an attempt to actualize your moral experience..not trying to be rude.
3. How does it effect the lives of those around the people who practice it?
I don't know, i think if it is being done it should be done b4 marriage primarily and in private, but each to his own i guess! ha.! Most people don't look for the effects of their jerking off..especially since they most others do it already anyway.
4. What are the results of practicing it?
I would suggest that any universal attempt to say "what the results are" are misguided and totally subjective at best. It is possible to say that masturbation if controlling a person may have certain effects. I just don't think that your reasoning is very clean cut...rather subjective...my point, then, is that if each person is having different feelings, theologians are even divided, having read several books by christian authors who support it...i just wonder if we cannot know....for sure....then maybe we should pray for conviction...have others pray...so go ahead and pray..please, b/c obviously your convicted....your reasoning didn't convince me...i want to be convinced if it is in fact wrong, but it'll take more than these attempts to objectify what is a very sticky issue...hehe...is it possible to be convicted of different things by the same god? Hmmm...
5. Does it always become addictive and habit forming?
No, i'm not addicted at all...neither are most of the christian guys i know. The guys on my floor, hence our questioning this issue.
6. What leads one to practice it?
What leads one to do anything...this sort of psychological question is absolutely subjective...once again....who knows...who cares...not anything discernably wrong in most situations...perhaps the occasional addiction whatever that would suggest that it isn't a healthy habbit.
You suggest that a person is simply trying to justify...i would also suggest that while this may be true in some situations, perhaps you are trying to actualize or universalize your convictions or moral experiences, b/c they won't seem as real to you if others are happy and absolutely fine with masturbation whence you cannot enjoy yourself....just playing devils advocate for many people who are reading this. peace-adam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
05/12/01 3:49 PM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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Tom said:
"I'll try to say something serious later. But for now all I can say is: Finally, something Calvinists, Arminians, and OVers have in common!"
So. Finally someone brave enough to tackle this question on an evangelical site. Whoo-hoo!!! Y'all embarrassed 'bout this subject? Wow! I don't even think the Bible is that embarrassed with such things. Sure, it doesn't mention it specifically, but it does talk about a host of other things that many Christians might find rather embarrassing to talk about. Now, seeing as this question was brought up. Let me ask how does Christ's humanity relate to this question? We talked about if Jesus ever "erred" in another thread. How does this subject relate to that question? Or is this too embarrassing too? Too sacriligious. If it is something that all Calvinists, Arminians and OVers have in common, is it not also something all boys have in common? Jesus was a boy. I think it is great that CVM would allow this question to stand. Shows they are pretty tolerant about alot of views and asking some "extreme" questions. Soooo, boydreamer? How are the Palmer sisters?
Lightening up,
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
05/12/01 11:21 PM
RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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When I read your post I get this picture in my mind of a little boy yelling at his Father, saying "you can't force your beliefs on me!"
Doesn't conviction usualy come as a result of sin? Okay, so if it does, then why is it not sin for you if other people are feeling convicted? Are you going to claim that sin is relative, and not absoloute? If a majority of Christians are feeling convicted as a result of masturbation, why would it only be wrong for them? You keep trying to say that just because it's wrong for one person doesn't mean it's wrong for you. That is what secular humanists claim about morality. They view it as something totally relative, not as absoloute.
You treat masturbation as something that is just as normal as breathing. If that's the case, then why do we not read about any of the great Christians of the Bible practicing it?
Pardon me for being a bit graphic, but masturbation is something that involves the same motions as sex. You are taking the pleasure part of sex and saying you can practice it free from lust or anything else, while claiming it's just as normal as anything else we do. Your only goal is to bring pleasure to yourself, there are no other reasons involved. Do you think that practicing something regularly that has self-indulgence as it's only justification is of any value?
You also claim that only a small amount of Christians who practice masturbation regularly also get involved with pornography of some sort. I recently heard a statistic that around 75% of Christian men have in some way been involved in pornography. Does that sound like a small amount to you? Perhaps this is the result of the large amount of Christians that regularly practice masturbation, as you claim.
You say that you aren't addicted? Try going a month without it.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
bdsahli
05/13/01 2:22 PM
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i have been in a bible study situation where this has come up several times. we all pretty much come to the conclusion that we know/think that it is wrong. most struggle with the lust aspect of it and it seems to become addictive to them. masturbation itself seems to be a gateway to other sin like pornography and lust. but even if you are able to masturbale without the worldly sinful aspects of it i must ask, what then is the intent? it feels good? temporary self gradification? god gave us a soul and this is the difference between us and animals, we can decide we do not need to masturbate to survive. i believe that it is a gateway that we can avoid. the difference between self gradifying sweets and self gradifying actions? its a fine line to sucessfully argue. there is only the biblical argument of lust. we do need to eat to survive and as i mentioned earlier we do not need to masturbate to survive. if one really thinks/argues there is no difference between sweets and masturbation then just simply dont do either.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CumGranoSalis
05/13/01 7:40 PM
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Here is what I have to say about the whole thing. It is obvious that there are many other things in this world that are just as debatable as this topic and in many cases there would be just as much discussion about what is right and what is wrong. Now, for some you might argue that because you are not feeling as though God is convicting you with your actions, that it is fair to say that masturbation is not sinful. I would like to clear some things up for you, in a very loving way. First of all, Adam, you would most likely argue that it is realistic to believe that masturbation is a natural occurrence and should be viewed so in sight of the fact that our bodies have a need to dispose of certain fluids. To that, I would first off like to indicate that there are absolutely no medical indications that show that a lack of masturbation in one's schedule will lead to anything diminishing to the body. It is fair to state from the opposite point of view that there is nothing medically harmful about masturbation, so long as it is done in mediocrity. However, if one were to look at things from an objective point of view, whether to be focused on the sinful nature or not, simply looking at the physical tendency of the human body, realizing that there is nothing harmful about going without masturbation, then what is the harm in trying to go a month without it. Whether it is a tool of controlling lust or removing unnecessary body fluids, it seems to me that since there is nothing harmful about not doing it, that there should be no reason to not do it, even if simply for the sake of proving us all wrong.
Also, look at the fact that we as men were set up with a reproductive system that basically takes care of itself. Needless to say, many men have never or barely ever had a "wet dream" or nocturnal emission before because of their masturbation habits. This is very shady in the respect that there should be something to be said for a God who makes a body that will remove this fluid from out body without our help. I am not trying to say that we should then get into a discussion about why then is our nocturnal emissions a sin as well, because first off, I would comment and say that we are helpless while sleeping, and second I would recommend prayer for God to guard each and everyone of our hearts as we go to sleep in order to secure our minds and bodies while we are helpless to the exterior world, and also in a sense to our mind's creative process. I would simply mention that it is our duty to keep prayerful as it is mention in 1 Thessalonians 5:17.
On the other hand, looking at it in light of both physical and spiritual intent, it is important to admit that there is much in this world that we as humans are incapable of seeing. We are spiritual beings, however we are also physical beings and we are not always aware of the spiritual battle that is going on during our every action, both good and bad. I think that it is very important to look at the fact that both society and our own mental thought process play a major role in who we are as humans in this world. Society tells us many things in the media that I am sure, hands down, would be not acceptable from a Christian standpoint. Many want to say that topics such as masturbation are not as important as many other things, however, I am not going to try to change that statement and say there are not other things that are important, such as salvation, however, by coming together in love, without trying to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, we can come together in unity and grow into Him who is at the foot of the church. (Reference to Ephesians 4: 14-15). I think that it is important to realize that from a spiritual level we are to hold each other accountable for all that is neglecting from our walk with Christ. I for one fall short in numerous areas of my life, and I need others to help me see where I am settling.
It is important to see that the devil's desires are to lie to us and torment us with sins as to draw away from the loving relationship with the Father. I would not be so brass as to say that a reference to John 8:49 "He who belongs to the father hears what God says. The reason why you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” for I think that just as my belief that masturbation is wrong, so I try to stop, where I am guilty of other lusts and sins, I would also be just as able to fit into that category as any other. However, I do hold to the validity of the statement in the sense that we are all to look at how we are falling short. The devil has embedded lies into our lives since the moment we were conceived. For as we are on this world, he is the ruler of this world, understanding that he is somewhat on a chain, asking for permission from God to do much of his handiwork in our lives. (I.e. Job, Luke 22:31-32 - satan ASKING to sift Simon as wheat.)
Anyway, to look directly at the subject at hand, we must find who God wants us to be past all of our desires, past all of our longings. Even though we may have innocent intentions, we are not always innocent. Ignorance is not bliss and we must seek out the righteousness that God has for our lives in order to come to the fullness that God has for us. I am not trying to condemn you or anyone else, because the truth is that I suffer from temptation and sin in many areas of my life, this one included. I think that it is very important to realize that in many ways, it is only fair to acknowledge that many things in our lives are subjective to ourselves, however there is too much of a lust for individualism in the church today. Too many are seeking out what is truth for themselves instead of what the one true truth is in God. I am sure that we will never come to know for certain what the truth is until God enlightens us to such, however, as Triskal replied, sin is universal and to add on, all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3: 10-23). Please take all of this into accord and with a grain of salt. For, though your opinions may vary, it is simply my intention to seek the path of righteousness, past my sinful nature and turn to the truth and cling to it.
Adam, if nothing else enlightens you, look at it like this, I do not support this last idea as the way to approach anything, because it is basing it off of a chance, rather than faith, but I do support the idea because it makes people think. Maybe by putting it on a level that you are very well bread in, the movie industry, this may have a lasting impact. In the movie Finding Forrester, there is a line in which Sean Connery says that ... just as prayer is useful because it doesn't hurt in case there is error in one's thoughts of truth, because in light of this topic, if you are wrong, and masturbation is sinful, taking into context that there is nothing harmful about not masturbating, wouldn't it be better to be safe then sorry over riding the fence in a gray area in which no one can for sure point to a bible verse that says word for word, do not masturbate. I don't know, the simple argument out of that, would be to say that what is natural feels natural, and yada yada yada, you know what I am saying, however, it is important to realize that all the teachings in the world are not going to make a sin become pure. Adam, all of this is said in love and I want you to know that I care about you and I want you to come to see how in this area, I truly believe that the lack of conviction is a simple tool from the devil to make it even easier to tilt your path away from God in any area of your life that he can, just as he does to each and every one of us, because that is his job. Adam, I love you as a brother in Christ and I ask forgiveness for anything that I have done to hinder your relationship with God. Thank you for being a great friend and neighbor this year. I hope and pray that God will touch you in a mighty way this summer with Billy. Adam, just know that in light of the fact that God desires all of us to come to know Him, past all of our knowledge and past all of our insight on any subject, I would like you to know that I am praying that God will show you the truth, not only in this subject, but in every aspect of you life.
~Triskal, I really dig what you said in your reply, it all makes a lot of
sense.
Let all of this marinate for a little while, let me know what ya think!
In His Love,
Michael J. Towle
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CumGranoSalis
05/13/01 7:37 PM
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Adam, thanks for the fact that you care enough to write this down and ask people what they think about the subject. It shows you care alot about what I think and are curious as to what others think as well. Thank you very Much and God bless you on your path to the truth!!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 1:32 AM
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Triskal
Ok, when I said that masterbation could be a means of control I simply believe that in moderation that it can chemically change your body and after you have done it, cause you to be less "lustfull." At least in my experience and from what other's have told me I have found that after the release that you do not have the same sex drive, a sex drive which could easily lead to lust. Next, of course this is what I think, you ask what GOD thinks and what the BIBLE says, so what do YOU think it says and where does it say that masterbation can in no way be positive. You say it "totally contradicts the overall message of Jesus, which is life through transformation of inward nature." So who decides what inward natures needed to be transformed? You seem to have taken the liberty to decide this, thus eliminating any chance of me responding. I suggest to you that in general we should transform our human nature, however that doesn't mean that every act we do as humans is objectively negative. Of course this is once again just my opinion. You also state that "it's also much like saying 'I'm going to control my alcohaulic nature by only having enough to satisfy my desire, and not letting it get out of control.'" Well, I would restate to say that "I will learn how to control my use of alcohol by using it in moderation thus preventing an addiction or submission to it." Your statement supposes that it is already a sin we are trapped in, I disagree. I don't think you would say that alcohol is inherantly evil, the abuse of it is. I would say the same of masturbation. You say "that what it takes to satisfy your desire, or craving, will change rapidly every time you indulge in it." Why do you say that? My parents drink, every time they do it they don't need more, they've have developed a healthy habbit of control. I feel as though drinking is a good analogy for masturbation (better than dessert, or kissing (which by the way was an awesome response to my question about kissing, thanks!)) Anyway, it's one of those things which can and often does lead to sin (lust) just as drinking can and does lead to sin (violence, etc.) but each is not wrong in and of itself. And I have nothing against your attack on pornography, it is evil, and yes many Christian fall this trap. But that is not justification for calling masturbation a flat out sin. Thanks for the response. I just simply disagree.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 2:14 AM
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Mike
you say:
"I would first off like to indicate that there are absolutely no medical indications that show that a lack of masturbation in one's schedule will lead to anything diminishing to the body."
I have a friend who was taking Propecia for hair loss and had those pesky sexual side effects. Well, he couldn't get it up and so he could not masturbate for the months he was using the meds. He began pooping out his semen. Normal? Probably not. But I know he was not to thilled that he had semen in his poo.
"there should be something to be said for a God who makes a body that will remove this fluid from out body without our help"
So, Mike, what about the family that doesn't take their kid to the doctor because 'God will take care of it', and the kid dies. Same thing as what you said above. Sometimes we do do things to our bodies to help them out. You say that the body is equiped to take care of this but then go on to say:
"I am not trying to say that we should then get into a discussion about why then is our nocturnal emissions a sin as well, because first off, I would comment and say that we are helpless while sleeping, and second I would recommend prayer for God to guard each and everyone of our hearts as we go to sleep in order to secure our minds and bodies while we are helpless to the exterior world, and also in a sense to our mind's creative process. I would simply mention that it is our duty to keep prayerful as it is mention in 1 Thessalonians 5:17."
So you say we are helpless, but yet should pray. You pretty much indicate that wet dreams are sinning, even if you didn't mean to. And maybe that discussion is relevent. If we should use prayer to protect our minds, and wet dreams are not sins, then what are we protecting ourselves from? Anyway, I would suggest that wet dreams are not sin. And that masturbation is a concious wet dream, and not sin either.
You also state:
"It is important to see that the devil's desires are to lie to us and torment us with sins as to draw away from the loving relationship with the Father. I would not be so brass as to say that a reference to John 8:49 "He who belongs to the father hears what God says. The reason why you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”"
Why do you assume that we are the one's decieved and that you know the objective truth. Seems to me that you are being decieved and are made to feel guilt (which satan can use), and guilt can really hurt people. (at this point as I was writting this response, you came into my room and dropped you pants, lol (this is not a joke, he really did!))
Next you say:
"there is too much of a lust for individualism in the church today. Too many are seeking out what is truth for themselves instead of what the one true truth is in God. "
1. What is the one true truth that is God?
2. It is only YOUR opinion that there is too much individualism.
3. Aren't we called to seek out for ourselves, what is truth. Is that not the whole point of choosing Jesus.
Then you say: "Adam, if nothing else enlightens you, look at it like this"
I find this very offensive. You assume that because Adam doesn't agree with you that he is unenlightened.
You also say "I truly believe that the lack of conviction is a simple tool from the devil to make it even easier to tilt your path away from God in any area of your life that he can"
So Satan has the power to intercept the Holy Spirit's convictions thus causing us to sin.
I think you need to admit that the possibility of you being wrong about this, exists. I admit that the possibility of me being wrong exist, and I know Adam does as well. Don't go into it thinking that you are enlightened and we are not.
And as Adam has stated before, I think the internet is impersonal, so I make no personal attacks upon you. I love you dude!
werd
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
drew_182
05/14/01 2:24 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
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THE LAST TWO POST WERE ACTUALLY FROM DREW_182 EXCEPT I WAS SIGNED ON UNDER BOYDREAMER (ADAM'S NAME).
SORRY,
Drew
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
boydreamer101
05/14/01 2:31 AM
RE: IS MASTURBATION WRONG?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATTENTION ATTENTION
THE LAST TWO POSTS WERE A FRIEND OF MINE LOGGED IN UNDER MY NAME....DREW182 IS WHO THE LAST TWO BOYDREAMER POSTS WERE FROM!!!!! HE DIDNT REALIZE HE WAS LOGGED IN UNDER MY NAME!
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