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| Posted 6/28/2001 6:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
Proverbs23_23
01/26/01 11:14 AM
How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Ok so I am pondering this one today (hopefully it has not yet been addressed).
If God is the God of the Open View, does He answer prayer by orchestrating others into position to carry it out His answer, and if so, doesn't this alter their will without them knowing?
For instance, if I pray for my daughter to get into a particular school (even with the disclaimer "if it is your will"), and God hears my prayer (and it is His will) will He alter the enrollment by leading another family to move or change schools? IF SO....what does that say about THEIR free will?
Also, if I am praying for a future husband (which I am ..hehe) will God actually ALTER people to put him in my path?
How, besides His character (which we CAN know) and His general 'will' (which we do know) do we know what to pray for?
Conversely, if He does not use ppl to answer prayer or alter their free will HOW does He answer prayer that involves people?
I know that prayer CHANGES things but DOES it change OTHERS free will if God must USE THEM to answer according to HIS will?
Everyone please reply...
If you are not of the Open View please tell me HOW you think God answers prayers if it is all 'mapped' out for us?
What is the PURPOSE of prayer?
Thanks,
Proverbs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/26/01 4:26 PM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Proverbs,
The short answer would be that God does not answer prayers involving people in such a way as to circumvent their wills. For example, many people not only pray for a future mate, but for a particular person to be their mates. This seems to me the height of presumption. I believe what many people term "prayer" is little more than an attempt at spiritual manipulation - which is really what witchcraft is all about.
Now, I do not believe that God never violates free will (except in the realm of salvation), but whenever He does, there is no moral quality attached to the actions of the individual. That said, there are many ways that God might influence the outcome of a situation without overwhelming free will.
In the Lamb,
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/26/01 6:45 PM
RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival: could you elaborate on what you meant when you said that you don't believe God ever violates free will (except for in the realm of salvation)? How does he violate in the area of salvation? Thanks! John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/26/01 6:49 PM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Prayer, for me, is bringing my concerns to God. Prayer does not simply involve asking for things from God. Prayer is praising God, worship, spending time with God. But in the area of petitionary prayer, I believe God is an influencer. I do not believe God makes people do things in answer to my prayers, but I do believe that because of my prayers, God works in the life of the person I pray for more than he had been before I prayed. I believe prayer influences God. He cares and listens to us and takes what we say into account before making a decision. But, it should be noted, God knows what we need more than we do and many times his answer is to our need, not to what we wanted to get when we prayed. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/27/01 10:28 AM
RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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I realize the construction of that sentence was poor, but read it again, I didn't write what you quoted. What I wrote was "I don't believe God NEVER violates free will (except when it comes to salvation). IOW, there may be times when God does over ride the free will of individuals at particular times in order to bring about His will when no other way might be possible. I believe this is rare, but is none the less possible. In regard to salvation, it would be oxymoronic to declare that God "saves" some in violation of their own free wills based on my belief that the purpose/essence of "salvation" is a freely made choice to love God supremely. (There's a lot more to my understanding of salvation than this, so please, no one consider this any kind of exhaustive statement.)
Does that clear it up?
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/27/01 2:57 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival,
I don't believe God ever violates the will of any of his creatures at any time to accomplish his will among his creatures. Yet, I think you would regard me to be a Calvinist.
Therefore, I have a question for you and other open theists. I quote you, there may be times when God does over ride the free will of individuals at particular times in order to bring about His will when no other way might be possible. Other open theists make the same concession. Even Greg Boyd makes this concession. Now, if you are willing to concede this, I'm wondering how is your open theist belief superior to the belief the best Calvinists articulate? You see, Calvinists don't believe God ever violates the will of any of his creatures in order to bring his own will to come to pass. It seems to me that open theists have fallen headlong into the very problem they wrongly perceived Calvinists to embrace. You have a problem Calvinism does not have. Our God never, never, never, never, ad infinitum ad nauseam, never violates the will of any of his rational creatures, whether they be angels, demons, Satan, or humans--believers or unbelievers.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/28/01 7:59 AM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Hi Proverbs:
I have been pondering your question ever since you posted it. In the past year God has laid the passion to pray stonger on my heart than ever before in my life (to pray for leadership in government, to pray for the leadership in the church, to pray for peoples prayer requests.....), yet I often wonder how much of an impact my prayers are having when it comes to praying for others. I am thinking that when we pray for God's will we are actually opening the door for God to impact our spirit in such a way that He is able to get our will in alignment with His. For instance: maybe when you are praying for a specific school for your daughter, God is influencing your thoughts to look at schools where the possibilities are great that there will be openings. When it comes to praying for a future mate perhaps the biggest benefit that comes is that God is able to open your thoughts up to seeing what His will is for you in a husband so that you will be drawn to the qualities that God sees best for you. I don't know if I am conveying this in a way that is making complete sense, but what I am trying to say is that I believe prayer is more about getting our thinking in alignment with God's than it is about God changing others in order to answer us. I think that when we pray for God's will to be done He is able to work in us in a way that allows Him to change and steer us in directions that will work best for us in order to get our needs met. In the open view God foreknows ALL the possibilities so prayer allows Him to steer us in directions which bring about the best possibility for getting our prayer answered. I also believe that prayer is more than just about God changing us, but it is also a weapon in which we allow God to fight a spiritual battle that we may not even be aware of needs to be fought. That's where I think praying for others comes in to the picture.
I really appreciated your question because it helped me in answering some of my own questions about prayer. Your question helped me to start seeing that unanswered prayer is not really unanswered prayer at all. Sometimes the answer to a specific prayer is more about opening US up to allowing God to work in and through us in a way that He wouldn't do without our permission. I used to pray "Oh God [or should I say Mr. Santa Clause] help me get a good parking spot at the mall" What I was really asking God to do, in order to answer me, was to go against other peoples freewill just so that I could get the perfect spot. I was asking Him to manipulate someone at the mall by putting a thought in their head to leave the mall at a specific time just so that I might get their spot -- not a realistic view on God and prayer,eh? Hey, sometimes I did end up getting a good spot and sometimes I didn't but now I realize that it had nothing to do with God answering or not answering my prayer.
I don't know if this is helpful for you, but it sparked some thinking in me. Thanks for asking it
Blessings to you,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/28/01 8:53 AM
On Prayer and Providence
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I want to give you an example. True story. One day, back when I was an undergrad, some friends and I went to Houston to go to a collegiate organization meeting. We had driven a couple of fifteen passenger vans to the event. Me and a home boy of mine were TERRIBLY hungry and he knew of a spot we could get some good fried chicken. I said cool. We're rollin' and finally we get to the spot. As we are getting our chicken we notice some people sitting outside, and some were quite disturbed. They were all dressed up and stuff. Usually, I wouldn't have really cared that much, but something told me to ask them about it. I went up to a lady and asked what the problem was. It turns out that they were from another state and they were attending a Baptist conference of some type. Something was wrong with their fifteen passenger van (I forget what) and due to some occurances they were completely lost so they couldn't find their hotel. My homie was from Houston and knew exactly how to get where they needed to go. Plus he and I were rolling in an EMPTY fifteen passenger van. So we basically told them to hop in. We took them there and as one of the older ladies was getting out, she said "Young man, thank you so much. God sure does work in mysterious ways, don't he?" I said yep and we drove off.
Then it hit my like a ton of bricks. What were the chances of me and my homie going to THAT particular place to eat? It was Houston for crying out loud and there were plenty of eating establishments that we passed before we got to Frenchies. What were the chances that we would be driving an EMPTY fifteen passenger van to the place? Some people with us came in cars, and it would have been nothing to use one of their cars. What where the chances that SOMEONE who did have a EMPTY fifteen passenger van would have the time and consideration to take these people where they needed to go? It was quite out of our way and we made sure that we gave them information they could use to get back. The situation was fairly clear to me. God had answered prayer. Mere coincidence wouldn't cut it. One of those people or someone PRAYING for those people's safety helped to insure that WE would be helping those people. I thought about it and I told my homie, "Yo, man. Did you ever think about this? WE could very well have been the answer to someone's prayer, man." He thought it was cool too.
I said all that to say this. There are approximately 6 billion people on the planet. When you add demons and angels into the mix, then were are talking more sentient beings. I firmly believe that God knows ALL THINGS including the individual needs of each and everybody on the planet. I believe that God knows everything about us down to the moral and ethical dispositions that we have. I also believe like the Scriptures say that God KNOWS what we need before we ask for it. In the example above, my homie and I decided to go to Frenchie's LONG BEFORE those people's van broke down. I checked the times that they happened. I believe that even BEFORE my homie and I even THOUGHT about going to Frenchie's, he KNEW that that van was going to break down RIGHT at a time when we would be getting there about 15mins after it happened. I truly believe that. I believe that God is a God of providence and that when we pray, things happen. Correspondingly, if we don't pray, things don't happen. Read my previous post to Springs on "Prayer" on another thread and you will see my logic. I do believe that God influences other people for HIS ultimate purposes. I think we spend WAY too much time on the ontological aspect of libertarian "free will" and don't spend ENOUGH time on the pragmatic, undeniable, aspect of the power of volition that we have. We have the perception that WE can make changes in our lives. I believe prayer is one of those things. This does not, contrary to popular belief, contradict predestination or determinism, as I try to argue. People like me BELIEVE in the efficacy and necessity of prayer just as avidly as Dr. Boyd and open view theists do. Why? Because some of us understand the distinction between fatalism and determinism. Bottom line, sister: Pray and believe that you have effect on God and situations. That's all matters. Using a past analogy, let's stop trying to figure out the inner mechanisms of the DVD player exhaustively. Let's humbly press "Play" and get on with the movie!
I hope this gives you my perspective.
In Christ,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
01/28/01 6:39 PM
RE: On Prayer and Providence
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a little more...
What a cool guest pastor we had at church today he helped me work through my understanding of the word 'influence' as well as affirming my PURPOSE in my constant prayer walk with Christ.
I've been asking many people for their opinion and now have some conclusions. This is what I think is true so far. If you have
a response, or can help me dig deeper I would appreciate feedback.
1) The 'influence' that God has in response to our prayers is the Holy Spirit prompting the people & or heavenly hosts involved to act. He isn't altering free will, but instead speaking through the Holy Spirit, to the people involved, prompting them to move. The free will is in DECIDING to act or not in OBEDIENCE to the promptings. This is the internal ear that one has to hear what the Spirit is saying. No one is forced.
2) The other thing is that there are MANY VARIABLES and that prayer changes things. We can petition God according to His will and avail much. Constant prayer IS needed in battle and NO prayer (even for a husband) is too small. I'm thinking of the parable of the PERSISTENT widow (Luke 18: 1-8), not that she was a widow, but that she was persistent with the unrighteous judge and how much more the RIGHTEOUS JUDGE will do for His children.
3) I knew before and am affirmed now that God IS INFLUENCED by us and will move accordingly. The key (I think) is knowing His character, and aligning our prayers to bring about His will.
What do you think?
Proverbs
ps. Thanks so much for decoding my posts. I am truly sleep deprived these days and not too careful with sentence structure or grammar. Sorry!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/28/01 11:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Lion-Lamb: while I respect your views and am not trying to critize you, having debated with several reformed believers, I can tell you from experience that many Calvinists DO believe God violates the will of humans and has the right (in their view) to do so. Some say he doesn't by saying they are dead in sin and God cannot violate a will that is dead and so he raises them from the dead and they have choice, but they would only choose him, so he doesn't violate their will (a view I personally find weak, but it is a view held by many reformed believers). How does, in your view, God not violate a person's will yet predetermine us to do certain things (in the calvinist view I believe God predestines us for his own purpose and will, not our will) and how does he know things ahead of time without violating the free wills of those who he plans to do the things he wants them to do without giving them the choice to do it? FOr instance, God (in calvinist view) planned Judas to betray Christ. It was planned from eternity past. Was that not a violation of Judas's free will? How would God know he was going to do it unless God planned it (in the calvinist view God plans our future for his own purpose, for his own will, not our will)? Or do you think, as open theists do, that God knew Judas would betray Jesus through fully knowing his character? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/29/01 9:51 AM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL,
What type of "free will" are you talking about? If I would regard you as "Calvinist", then your definition of "free will" and mine are not the same, as you well know. Further, the way you use the phrase is probably not the way it is understood by the person who asked the original question. The very way you phrase your assertion underscores that we do not operate on the same definition. I would assert that the "free will" Calvinists embrace is not very "free" at all.
In the Lamb (Who sits upon the Throne)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/29/01 10:46 AM
An Aside: Question to Revival
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Revival,
Does God actually "sit" upon a "throne"? Yes or No.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/29/01 12:12 PM
RE: An Aside: Question to Revival
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Well, I suppose its possible that He made one big enough to fit His...er...posterior.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 3:45 PM
RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival,
Of course my understanding of freedom is different from yours. But that's my point! You have decided you didn't like the definition of human freedom Calvinists hold because you thought, as others have, that given such a definition God has to bully people into doing things his way in order that his will might be accomplished. Well, I'm telling you that the God in whom I believe does not bully nor violate the wills of any of his creatures, yet his will is accomplished. So, how has your adoption of open theism preserved you from what you and others have wrongly perceived concerning Calvinism? You view, in the end, necessarily entails the notion that God sometimes has to violate the wills of his creatures in order to accomplish his will. How is your view, therefore, superior to that of Calvinism that does not believe that God violates the wills of any of his creatures? You haven't answered my question.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 3:53 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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WriterDad,
Of course there are all kinds of Calvinists with whom you might speak who are poor representatives of Calvinism. I will never claim that you can't find one somewhere who will insist that God violates human will. Remember, in my earlier note I specifically qualified my statement by talking about the best representatives of Calvinism. If we properly engage ideas, especially those with which we presently disagree, we must engage those ideas as expressed by the best representatives of those ideas, not the people off the street. That's why I seek to engage the best representatives of open theism and not simply those who represent the position from a street level, and I mean no insult to any street level open theists anymore than I intend any insult to any street level Calvinist.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/29/01 4:55 PM
RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL: I sense some tension in your answers. I hope it was not because of my answers.
It should be noted, though, that many people do believe that the reformed view is a view of determinism and does violate a person's will, not because they change the definition of "human freedom" but by taking the teachings of Calvinists and working them out to their logical conclusions. For instance, many believe that if God predestine us from the beginning of time to live our lives in according to what he decides us to do, that we cannot be responsible for our sins, nor anything we do because we did not have the right of choose and therefore, God, not us, is responsible for what we do and therefore God is the author of sin, if he plans our histories (as, for instance, James White teaches in "The Potter's Freedom"). That is a logical outworking of such a belief. I am not saying its a correct one (that has been a matter of debate for centuries) but it is a good argument against believing in Calivinism and it does not redefine what Calvinists believe.
One can disagree with a belief because when a person takes it to its conclusion does not see it as valid. You may disagree with that, but that doesn't neccessary make the argument wrong, nor does it mean the person is misinterpreting the viewpoint expressed.
I, for instance, believe that all theological viewpoints have some problem that cannot be totally satisified. But I believe open theism represents the best view of God according to the scriptures. But I adknowledge there are some problems that I have not fully solved (nor will I, probably). Mine deal with the area of prophecy. But, as a former reformed believer, I do have problems with the view enspoused by Calvinists as far as God preordaining sin and preordaining people to hell (though many reformed believers insist he doesn't, I believe he does in their view). That is my interpretation of Calvinist theology and I willingly admit I could be wrong. But people can disagree without changing the definition of another's belief. They can disagree because they believe the system, drawn to its logical conclusion, is suspect. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/29/01 4:57 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival: Thanks for answering my question (sorry about not expressing thanks sooner). I did misread it, and your answer helped clear that up. Love your website, by the way. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 7:34 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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WriterDad,
I haven't read James White's book. Does he actually say what you said he says?
For instance, many believe that if God predestine us from the beginning of time to live our lives in according to what he decides us to do, that we cannot be responsible for our sins, nor anything we do because we did not have the right of choose and therefore, God, not us, is responsible for what we do and therefore God is the author of sin, if he plans our histories (as, for instance, James White teaches in "The Potter's Freedom").
Please post some quotes that support your claim. I still say, if James White says such things, he is hardly a good representative of Calvinism.
BTW, I don't believe in a system of theology called Calvinism. Rather, Calvinism is only a proper description of my beliefs that derive wholly from Scripture.
Lion-Lamb
P.S. As long as you believe that belief in divine predestination necessitates believing that God violate the wills of his creatures, you have not yet understood Calvinism.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/29/01 11:19 PM
ON "violating " Free Will .....
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s'up thinkers on the thread,
Lion has argued that Calvinist don't believe God violates free will, ever. the issue then turned on what was meant by "free will."
the real issue, it seems to me, turns on the word "violate." Calvinist believe God turns the will. that's what "irresistible grace" is all about. a will is dead set against God. God then "irresistibly" turns the will to make it love God.
that's what openness people and Arminians in general call "violating" the will.
you're welcome,
Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/30/01 12:32 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL: I am curious about what you mean when you say "divine predestination?" Or how you define it? Do you believe that God, by his own will and for his own purpose, predestines all of our history, actions, all things that will ever come to pass on this planet earth, God has preordained, not because he sees what we will do in history and ordains it on that basis, but because he has willed it? Is that what you mean by predestination? John 17:3 Harold
Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
Proverbs23_23
01/26/01 11:14 AM
How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Ok so I am pondering this one today (hopefully it has not yet been addressed).
If God is the God of the Open View, does He answer prayer by orchestrating others into position to carry it out His answer, and if so, doesn't this alter their will without them knowing?
For instance, if I pray for my daughter to get into a particular school (even with the disclaimer "if it is your will"), and God hears my prayer (and it is His will) will He alter the enrollment by leading another family to move or change schools? IF SO....what does that say about THEIR free will?
Also, if I am praying for a future husband (which I am ..hehe) will God actually ALTER people to put him in my path?
How, besides His character (which we CAN know) and His general 'will' (which we do know) do we know what to pray for?
Conversely, if He does not use ppl to answer prayer or alter their free will HOW does He answer prayer that involves people?
I know that prayer CHANGES things but DOES it change OTHERS free will if God must USE THEM to answer according to HIS will?
Everyone please reply...
If you are not of the Open View please tell me HOW you think God answers prayers if it is all 'mapped' out for us?
What is the PURPOSE of prayer?
Thanks,
Proverbs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/26/01 4:26 PM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Proverbs,
The short answer would be that God does not answer prayers involving people in such a way as to circumvent their wills. For example, many people not only pray for a future mate, but for a particular person to be their mates. This seems to me the height of presumption. I believe what many people term "prayer" is little more than an attempt at spiritual manipulation - which is really what witchcraft is all about.
Now, I do not believe that God never violates free will (except in the realm of salvation), but whenever He does, there is no moral quality attached to the actions of the individual. That said, there are many ways that God might influence the outcome of a situation without overwhelming free will.
In the Lamb,
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/26/01 6:45 PM
RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival: could you elaborate on what you meant when you said that you don't believe God ever violates free will (except for in the realm of salvation)? How does he violate in the area of salvation? Thanks! John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/26/01 6:49 PM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Prayer, for me, is bringing my concerns to God. Prayer does not simply involve asking for things from God. Prayer is praising God, worship, spending time with God. But in the area of petitionary prayer, I believe God is an influencer. I do not believe God makes people do things in answer to my prayers, but I do believe that because of my prayers, God works in the life of the person I pray for more than he had been before I prayed. I believe prayer influences God. He cares and listens to us and takes what we say into account before making a decision. But, it should be noted, God knows what we need more than we do and many times his answer is to our need, not to what we wanted to get when we prayed. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/27/01 10:28 AM
RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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I realize the construction of that sentence was poor, but read it again, I didn't write what you quoted. What I wrote was "I don't believe God NEVER violates free will (except when it comes to salvation). IOW, there may be times when God does over ride the free will of individuals at particular times in order to bring about His will when no other way might be possible. I believe this is rare, but is none the less possible. In regard to salvation, it would be oxymoronic to declare that God "saves" some in violation of their own free wills based on my belief that the purpose/essence of "salvation" is a freely made choice to love God supremely. (There's a lot more to my understanding of salvation than this, so please, no one consider this any kind of exhaustive statement.)
Does that clear it up?
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/27/01 2:57 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival,
I don't believe God ever violates the will of any of his creatures at any time to accomplish his will among his creatures. Yet, I think you would regard me to be a Calvinist.
Therefore, I have a question for you and other open theists. I quote you, there may be times when God does over ride the free will of individuals at particular times in order to bring about His will when no other way might be possible. Other open theists make the same concession. Even Greg Boyd makes this concession. Now, if you are willing to concede this, I'm wondering how is your open theist belief superior to the belief the best Calvinists articulate? You see, Calvinists don't believe God ever violates the will of any of his creatures in order to bring his own will to come to pass. It seems to me that open theists have fallen headlong into the very problem they wrongly perceived Calvinists to embrace. You have a problem Calvinism does not have. Our God never, never, never, never, ad infinitum ad nauseam, never violates the will of any of his rational creatures, whether they be angels, demons, Satan, or humans--believers or unbelievers.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/28/01 7:59 AM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Hi Proverbs:
I have been pondering your question ever since you posted it. In the past year God has laid the passion to pray stonger on my heart than ever before in my life (to pray for leadership in government, to pray for the leadership in the church, to pray for peoples prayer requests.....), yet I often wonder how much of an impact my prayers are having when it comes to praying for others. I am thinking that when we pray for God's will we are actually opening the door for God to impact our spirit in such a way that He is able to get our will in alignment with His. For instance: maybe when you are praying for a specific school for your daughter, God is influencing your thoughts to look at schools where the possibilities are great that there will be openings. When it comes to praying for a future mate perhaps the biggest benefit that comes is that God is able to open your thoughts up to seeing what His will is for you in a husband so that you will be drawn to the qualities that God sees best for you. I don't know if I am conveying this in a way that is making complete sense, but what I am trying to say is that I believe prayer is more about getting our thinking in alignment with God's than it is about God changing others in order to answer us. I think that when we pray for God's will to be done He is able to work in us in a way that allows Him to change and steer us in directions that will work best for us in order to get our needs met. In the open view God foreknows ALL the possibilities so prayer allows Him to steer us in directions which bring about the best possibility for getting our prayer answered. I also believe that prayer is more than just about God changing us, but it is also a weapon in which we allow God to fight a spiritual battle that we may not even be aware of needs to be fought. That's where I think praying for others comes in to the picture.
I really appreciated your question because it helped me in answering some of my own questions about prayer. Your question helped me to start seeing that unanswered prayer is not really unanswered prayer at all. Sometimes the answer to a specific prayer is more about opening US up to allowing God to work in and through us in a way that He wouldn't do without our permission. I used to pray "Oh God [or should I say Mr. Santa Clause] help me get a good parking spot at the mall" What I was really asking God to do, in order to answer me, was to go against other peoples freewill just so that I could get the perfect spot. I was asking Him to manipulate someone at the mall by putting a thought in their head to leave the mall at a specific time just so that I might get their spot -- not a realistic view on God and prayer,eh? Hey, sometimes I did end up getting a good spot and sometimes I didn't but now I realize that it had nothing to do with God answering or not answering my prayer.
I don't know if this is helpful for you, but it sparked some thinking in me. Thanks for asking it
Blessings to you,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/28/01 8:53 AM
On Prayer and Providence
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I want to give you an example. True story. One day, back when I was an undergrad, some friends and I went to Houston to go to a collegiate organization meeting. We had driven a couple of fifteen passenger vans to the event. Me and a home boy of mine were TERRIBLY hungry and he knew of a spot we could get some good fried chicken. I said cool. We're rollin' and finally we get to the spot. As we are getting our chicken we notice some people sitting outside, and some were quite disturbed. They were all dressed up and stuff. Usually, I wouldn't have really cared that much, but something told me to ask them about it. I went up to a lady and asked what the problem was. It turns out that they were from another state and they were attending a Baptist conference of some type. Something was wrong with their fifteen passenger van (I forget what) and due to some occurances they were completely lost so they couldn't find their hotel. My homie was from Houston and knew exactly how to get where they needed to go. Plus he and I were rolling in an EMPTY fifteen passenger van. So we basically told them to hop in. We took them there and as one of the older ladies was getting out, she said "Young man, thank you so much. God sure does work in mysterious ways, don't he?" I said yep and we drove off.
Then it hit my like a ton of bricks. What were the chances of me and my homie going to THAT particular place to eat? It was Houston for crying out loud and there were plenty of eating establishments that we passed before we got to Frenchies. What were the chances that we would be driving an EMPTY fifteen passenger van to the place? Some people with us came in cars, and it would have been nothing to use one of their cars. What where the chances that SOMEONE who did have a EMPTY fifteen passenger van would have the time and consideration to take these people where they needed to go? It was quite out of our way and we made sure that we gave them information they could use to get back. The situation was fairly clear to me. God had answered prayer. Mere coincidence wouldn't cut it. One of those people or someone PRAYING for those people's safety helped to insure that WE would be helping those people. I thought about it and I told my homie, "Yo, man. Did you ever think about this? WE could very well have been the answer to someone's prayer, man." He thought it was cool too.
I said all that to say this. There are approximately 6 billion people on the planet. When you add demons and angels into the mix, then were are talking more sentient beings. I firmly believe that God knows ALL THINGS including the individual needs of each and everybody on the planet. I believe that God knows everything about us down to the moral and ethical dispositions that we have. I also believe like the Scriptures say that God KNOWS what we need before we ask for it. In the example above, my homie and I decided to go to Frenchie's LONG BEFORE those people's van broke down. I checked the times that they happened. I believe that even BEFORE my homie and I even THOUGHT about going to Frenchie's, he KNEW that that van was going to break down RIGHT at a time when we would be getting there about 15mins after it happened. I truly believe that. I believe that God is a God of providence and that when we pray, things happen. Correspondingly, if we don't pray, things don't happen. Read my previous post to Springs on "Prayer" on another thread and you will see my logic. I do believe that God influences other people for HIS ultimate purposes. I think we spend WAY too much time on the ontological aspect of libertarian "free will" and don't spend ENOUGH time on the pragmatic, undeniable, aspect of the power of volition that we have. We have the perception that WE can make changes in our lives. I believe prayer is one of those things. This does not, contrary to popular belief, contradict predestination or determinism, as I try to argue. People like me BELIEVE in the efficacy and necessity of prayer just as avidly as Dr. Boyd and open view theists do. Why? Because some of us understand the distinction between fatalism and determinism. Bottom line, sister: Pray and believe that you have effect on God and situations. That's all matters. Using a past analogy, let's stop trying to figure out the inner mechanisms of the DVD player exhaustively. Let's humbly press "Play" and get on with the movie!
I hope this gives you my perspective.
In Christ,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
01/28/01 6:39 PM
RE: On Prayer and Providence
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a little more...
What a cool guest pastor we had at church today he helped me work through my understanding of the word 'influence' as well as affirming my PURPOSE in my constant prayer walk with Christ.
I've been asking many people for their opinion and now have some conclusions. This is what I think is true so far. If you have
a response, or can help me dig deeper I would appreciate feedback.
1) The 'influence' that God has in response to our prayers is the Holy Spirit prompting the people & or heavenly hosts involved to act. He isn't altering free will, but instead speaking through the Holy Spirit, to the people involved, prompting them to move. The free will is in DECIDING to act or not in OBEDIENCE to the promptings. This is the internal ear that one has to hear what the Spirit is saying. No one is forced.
2) The other thing is that there are MANY VARIABLES and that prayer changes things. We can petition God according to His will and avail much. Constant prayer IS needed in battle and NO prayer (even for a husband) is too small. I'm thinking of the parable of the PERSISTENT widow (Luke 18: 1-8), not that she was a widow, but that she was persistent with the unrighteous judge and how much more the RIGHTEOUS JUDGE will do for His children.
3) I knew before and am affirmed now that God IS INFLUENCED by us and will move accordingly. The key (I think) is knowing His character, and aligning our prayers to bring about His will.
What do you think?
Proverbs
ps. Thanks so much for decoding my posts. I am truly sleep deprived these days and not too careful with sentence structure or grammar. Sorry!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/28/01 11:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Lion-Lamb: while I respect your views and am not trying to critize you, having debated with several reformed believers, I can tell you from experience that many Calvinists DO believe God violates the will of humans and has the right (in their view) to do so. Some say he doesn't by saying they are dead in sin and God cannot violate a will that is dead and so he raises them from the dead and they have choice, but they would only choose him, so he doesn't violate their will (a view I personally find weak, but it is a view held by many reformed believers). How does, in your view, God not violate a person's will yet predetermine us to do certain things (in the calvinist view I believe God predestines us for his own purpose and will, not our will) and how does he know things ahead of time without violating the free wills of those who he plans to do the things he wants them to do without giving them the choice to do it? FOr instance, God (in calvinist view) planned Judas to betray Christ. It was planned from eternity past. Was that not a violation of Judas's free will? How would God know he was going to do it unless God planned it (in the calvinist view God plans our future for his own purpose, for his own will, not our will)? Or do you think, as open theists do, that God knew Judas would betray Jesus through fully knowing his character? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/29/01 9:51 AM
RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL,
What type of "free will" are you talking about? If I would regard you as "Calvinist", then your definition of "free will" and mine are not the same, as you well know. Further, the way you use the phrase is probably not the way it is understood by the person who asked the original question. The very way you phrase your assertion underscores that we do not operate on the same definition. I would assert that the "free will" Calvinists embrace is not very "free" at all.
In the Lamb (Who sits upon the Throne)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/29/01 10:46 AM
An Aside: Question to Revival
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Revival,
Does God actually "sit" upon a "throne"? Yes or No.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/29/01 12:12 PM
RE: An Aside: Question to Revival
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Well, I suppose its possible that He made one big enough to fit His...er...posterior.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 3:45 PM
RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival,
Of course my understanding of freedom is different from yours. But that's my point! You have decided you didn't like the definition of human freedom Calvinists hold because you thought, as others have, that given such a definition God has to bully people into doing things his way in order that his will might be accomplished. Well, I'm telling you that the God in whom I believe does not bully nor violate the wills of any of his creatures, yet his will is accomplished. So, how has your adoption of open theism preserved you from what you and others have wrongly perceived concerning Calvinism? You view, in the end, necessarily entails the notion that God sometimes has to violate the wills of his creatures in order to accomplish his will. How is your view, therefore, superior to that of Calvinism that does not believe that God violates the wills of any of his creatures? You haven't answered my question.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 3:53 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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WriterDad,
Of course there are all kinds of Calvinists with whom you might speak who are poor representatives of Calvinism. I will never claim that you can't find one somewhere who will insist that God violates human will. Remember, in my earlier note I specifically qualified my statement by talking about the best representatives of Calvinism. If we properly engage ideas, especially those with which we presently disagree, we must engage those ideas as expressed by the best representatives of those ideas, not the people off the street. That's why I seek to engage the best representatives of open theism and not simply those who represent the position from a street level, and I mean no insult to any street level open theists anymore than I intend any insult to any street level Calvinist.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/29/01 4:55 PM
RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL: I sense some tension in your answers. I hope it was not because of my answers.
It should be noted, though, that many people do believe that the reformed view is a view of determinism and does violate a person's will, not because they change the definition of "human freedom" but by taking the teachings of Calvinists and working them out to their logical conclusions. For instance, many believe that if God predestine us from the beginning of time to live our lives in according to what he decides us to do, that we cannot be responsible for our sins, nor anything we do because we did not have the right of choose and therefore, God, not us, is responsible for what we do and therefore God is the author of sin, if he plans our histories (as, for instance, James White teaches in "The Potter's Freedom"). That is a logical outworking of such a belief. I am not saying its a correct one (that has been a matter of debate for centuries) but it is a good argument against believing in Calivinism and it does not redefine what Calvinists believe.
One can disagree with a belief because when a person takes it to its conclusion does not see it as valid. You may disagree with that, but that doesn't neccessary make the argument wrong, nor does it mean the person is misinterpreting the viewpoint expressed.
I, for instance, believe that all theological viewpoints have some problem that cannot be totally satisified. But I believe open theism represents the best view of God according to the scriptures. But I adknowledge there are some problems that I have not fully solved (nor will I, probably). Mine deal with the area of prophecy. But, as a former reformed believer, I do have problems with the view enspoused by Calvinists as far as God preordaining sin and preordaining people to hell (though many reformed believers insist he doesn't, I believe he does in their view). That is my interpretation of Calvinist theology and I willingly admit I could be wrong. But people can disagree without changing the definition of another's belief. They can disagree because they believe the system, drawn to its logical conclusion, is suspect. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/29/01 4:57 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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Revival: Thanks for answering my question (sorry about not expressing thanks sooner). I did misread it, and your answer helped clear that up. Love your website, by the way. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/29/01 7:34 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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WriterDad,
I haven't read James White's book. Does he actually say what you said he says?
For instance, many believe that if God predestine us from the beginning of time to live our lives in according to what he decides us to do, that we cannot be responsible for our sins, nor anything we do because we did not have the right of choose and therefore, God, not us, is responsible for what we do and therefore God is the author of sin, if he plans our histories (as, for instance, James White teaches in "The Potter's Freedom").
Please post some quotes that support your claim. I still say, if James White says such things, he is hardly a good representative of Calvinism.
BTW, I don't believe in a system of theology called Calvinism. Rather, Calvinism is only a proper description of my beliefs that derive wholly from Scripture.
Lion-Lamb
P.S. As long as you believe that belief in divine predestination necessitates believing that God violate the wills of his creatures, you have not yet understood Calvinism.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/29/01 11:19 PM
ON "violating " Free Will .....
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s'up thinkers on the thread,
Lion has argued that Calvinist don't believe God violates free will, ever. the issue then turned on what was meant by "free will."
the real issue, it seems to me, turns on the word "violate." Calvinist believe God turns the will. that's what "irresistible grace" is all about. a will is dead set against God. God then "irresistibly" turns the will to make it love God.
that's what openness people and Arminians in general call "violating" the will.
you're welcome,
Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/30/01 12:32 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will .....
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LL: I am curious about what you mean when you say "divine predestination?" Or how you define it? Do you believe that God, by his own will and for his own purpose, predestines all of our history, actions, all things that will ever come to pass on this planet earth, God has preordained, not because he sees what we will do in history and ordains it on that basis, but because he has willed it? Is that what you mean by predestination? John 17:3 Harold
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