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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/22/2001 12:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance: "It is my understanding that the Body of Christ was what God wanted before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) or before the ages (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:9; Col 1:26). It is the mystery (Eph 3:6) that is the hidden wisdom of God that Paul preached. I believe that Eph 3:8-11 confirms this."
Doc: Pretty impressive argument, I must admit. But consider:
Acts 2:23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.
AND
Acts 4:27 For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,
Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
It is clear that at some point God predestined Jesus to be crucified. It is easy to understand how people could naturally link up this truth with the "mystery keep secret from before the ages."
I can live either with Chance and Sanders view that what was predestined from the start was only the Church, OR with the view that the mystery included the crucifixion of Christ. I've always leaned toward the second, but am increasingly loosing conviction about this (thanks to thinking like Chance and Sanders).
Doc
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 7/22/2001 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I've always leaned toward the second, but am increasingly loosing conviction about this (thanks to thinking like Chance and Sanders).
way to go chance. I saw your correction of the issue I responded to. if you didn't change, maybe I misread. either way, much better.
quote:
Acts 2:23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.
AND
Acts 4:27 For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
All I can say is, why assume that a plan or something predestined always refers to something before the foundation of the world?
why can't God make plans as things develope?
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 7/23/2001 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc said
quote:
It is clear that at some point God predestined Jesus to be crucified. It is easy to understand how people could naturally link up this truth with the "mystery keep secret from before the ages."
Yes, it is easy to assume that because God predestined an event that it was predestined a long, long time beforehand (whether from or before the foundation of the world).
I remember first being exposed to the idea that God's decision to have Christ undergo the specific form of execution, the cross, was decided upon much nearer the date of the crucifixion then the creation of the world or the Fall. I believe it was Jeremy Finkenbinder, a student of Bob Hill, who first exposed me to this view on the old TheologyOnLine Forums a few years ago.
I believe the reasoning for my thinking that God predestined the cross closer to the time of creation was based in part because of my former deterministic view of God (which took some time to "grow out of") and the mistranslation of Ps 22:1 that gave me the impression that God had crucifixion in mind as the means for Christ's atoning death centuries before crucifixion even existed. I wasn't fully convinced that Ps 22 wasn't originally refering to the cross until I read what John wrote on the translation of Ps 22:1 in The God Who Risks. That pretty much settled it for me. Thanks John  !
Doc said
quote:
I can live either with Chance and Sanders view that what was predestined from the start was only the Church, OR with the view that the mystery included the crucifixion of Christ. I've always leaned toward the second, but am increasingly loosing conviction about this (thanks to thinking like Chance and Sanders).
That's quite a compliment! Thanks!! 
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 07/24/2001 09:42:14 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 7/24/2001 5:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Oops! Double post.
Edited by - chance on 07/24/2001 10:53:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 7/24/2001 5:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc asked
quote:
Do you recommend that I read through any of James' works? Is there anything he wrote that really had an impact on you?
Briefly as possible.
Yes, I highly recommend that everyone read through James and study it many times just as I'd recommend that everyone read through and study the book of Deuteronomy or the book of Isaiah or the gospel of Matthew or any other Scripture that is not addressed to the Body in which there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Hebrews obviously  specifically Heb 3:9; Jam 1:1; 1 Pet 1:1; 2 John 1:1,5; 3 John 1:7; cf. Gal 2:9).
I believe that ALL Scripture is written for us, but ONLY Paul's epistles are addressed to us. This is because Paul was given the most recent revelation from God (Rom 16:25; 1 Cor 2:7; Gal 1:11-12,16; 2:2; Eph 1:9; 3:6-11; Col 1:26) that is for the most recent group of "called out ones" that God is working with (in other words, the Body of Christ of which Paul is the first member 1 Tim 1:16). The "house rules" that God has for the Body of Christ (Eph 3:2) are significantly different from the rules that God had for the group that He was working with prior to that (Deut 6:25; Matt 5:17-20; 23:23; Rom 3:21; 7:4; 14:1-6; Col 1:14-17).
I hope that's fairly clear though brief. If not, please let me know  .
To answer your second question the passages in James that had the biggest impact on me have been Jam 1:5 and Jam 1:13-15 and Jam 3:17.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 07/24/2001 11:02:42 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/25/2001 7:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow!
Like go'en to the ballpark--I can observe but I can't play on the field.
I understand what is going on--feel literate. (even read a paper called "Relational Temporality: An Inquiry into the Triune God as Creator" one time).
But I am amazed at such talent all geared up for handling so much all at one time. Wow.!!!
But so as to get another post counted on my sidebar...
Here is two-bits.
First, in a book by Lars Thunberg on Maximus the Confessor he refers to" "the idea of the threefold 'incarnation': the natural law, the written law, and the law of grace."
That refers to The Word incarnating in creation, in writing and what that contains, and in redeeming us. Since some are focusing on God's involvement/Christ's involvement/The cross at the creation........focusing on lots of detail......I'll just put here a witness to the CREATION and SALVATION being connected together. (((_Modes will like that._  ))) and furnish a source where it is fleshed-out ((pun?)) in a way that seems worth following.
In the same paragraph, but above it, Thunberg says, "...helped Maximus to demonstrate how the structure of the cosmos and the economy of salvation belong together within a basically anthropo-centric perspective of christological dignity. This total system now contains an important element of movement, Cosmologically this may be characterized through the double concept of expansion and contraction. Christologically it is expressed through an equivalent vision of the "becoming thick " and "becoming thin," which corresponds to Christ's coming into the world and his return to the Father (though from then on also as man as representation of all believers and mankind)." (Didn't C.S. Lewis pick up the "thin" and "thick" image?)
I've no credentials. So... But still I get the feeling that so much looking at trees misses the forest. By which I mean it is nice to even see some Calvinists, like Louis Smedes consider Election to be "In Christ." Prof. Boyd's mention of The Church (Christ's Body // Pointedly, Zizioulas mentions as being inseparable with Christ; that without the Church Christ would not exist--but, He would be, only, the Son/Logos) as predestined from the start AND/OR election including the crucifixion of Christ. (I'm giving this a half twist--hmmm....OK?) Nothing can overemphasize the importance of "THE" tree. But in the section above I hope that the unity shown by "the idea of the threefold 'incarnation'" can give us a way past looking at old writings in too modern a way.
That being suggested, I'll offer a something in a more affective tone, about God's suffering/risk taking. (qualitative versus quantitative)
______It has been truly said that there was a cross in the heart of God before there was one planted outside Jerusalem; and though the cross of wood has been taken down, the cross in God's heart still remains. It is the cross of pain and triumph--both together. And those who can believe this will find that joy is mingled with their cup of bitterness. They will share on a human level in the divine experience of victorious suffering.
..............(From "The Orthodox Way", by Kallistos Ware, pp. 64)
PotOnWheel
Edited by - potonwheel on 07/26/2001 12:15:19 AM
Edited by - potonwheel on 07/26/2001 2:30:47 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/25/2001 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Chance-
I'm missing something. Doc, I thought, asked you about the "works" of a certain "James." This James he says got his thoughts from Charles Pierce. But you seemed to have thought he was talking about the book of James in the NT. Are you guys joshing with each other and showing the forum how slow I am again or what?
One last note of the 1Cor. 2 passage. Basically I'm with you on believing that the cross was not a predetermined certainty with God before creation, and the verses you provided which suggest God eternally wanted a "body" or people are good. However, nobody (besides Doc at one time) seems to be thinking through the implications of "had the rulers understood THIS they never would have crucified Christ." You (along with most OVers) simply supply "that God wanted a people" in the place of "THIS" and continue on. Maybe I'm losing my marbles, but it seems we keep ignoring this. It still seems to me that if we understand the passage precisely as you have argued, no explanation can be given as to why simply understanding that "God wanted a people" would have led the rulers not to crucify Christ. This claim of Paul links the DEATH of Jesus to the predestined wisdom of God.
The issue is not whether or not the passage has implications for the open view. I'm not arguing that. I'm only suggesting that it seems to me that we need to explain the WISDOM of God here in such a way as to make sense of the claim that NOT understanding it would have led the rulers to refrain from crucifying Christ.
Ciao,
Tom
"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight
Edited by - TGB on 07/26/2001 02:26:13 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 7/26/2001 12:58 AM (GMT -6) | | TGB asked
quote:
Chance-
I'm missing something. Doc, I thought, asked you about the "works" of a certain "James." This James he says got his thoughts from Charles Pierce. But you seemed to have thought he was talking about the book of James in the NT. Are you guys joshing with each other and showing the forum how slow I am again or what?
Oops! My bad!!
Yep, it looks like the question was refering to the recent James and not the guy that wrote the epistle of James addressed to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.
I've actually never read anything of James' work. I did find a reference to him when I did a search for the words "metaphysical discovery" about 4 months ago. Some friends of a friend of mine didn't like the use of the term "metaphysical discovery" in the GODISNOWHERE mission statement (I think that's where it was found) so I did a search for the term and found a reference to this James guy.
It looks like I may want to read up on this Pierce guy instead.
As to the reason why the rulers of this world would have not crucufied Christ had they known the mystery I would like to start a thread on that. The reason is because I'm pretty sure that most people here have not heard the explanation that I would give and it is something that needs more explaining then just the reason why the rulers wouldn't have crucified Christ had they known the mystery. Hope to get to it Friday morning.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 07/26/2001 06:01:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/26/2001 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Start that new thread up Bro. I'm ready.
Tom
"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 8/3/2001 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | I had better post a few questions for discussion on this board before I get to that post Tom. I think it would benefit others on this board if I did that.
I'll get to one of those questions now .
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/14/2002 2:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Halo-
Jump in.
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 5/17/2002 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmm. Didn't get past the question of time to which I will respond shortly, but, you Greek scholars, cannot "apo katabole kosmos" be translated "since the fall of the world"? Katabole is the root word of catabolism and other words meaning to break down or throw down, to lay a foundation? OK, but isn't mine a possibility?? Are there others?
On to time, still_unsure wrote:
quote:
I hate to sound like a broken record but again I must note that the open view does not seriously consider General Relativity's implications for God's relationship to time.
Yes, it does, but you need to understand the obverse to this, that the time relativists devised is developed from Hellenistic concepts that crept into science and religion and effected both.
Time is a dimension, it is not a created thing. Remember the world view of most scientists is atheistic and everything began at the big bang to them. The trouble they have is, without time the big bang couldn't have happened because there can be no sequencing without it, so the primordial pea sizes universe could not have progressed without it, in fact, neither could the pea itself because it's existence depends partly on time itself, as well as the other dimensions.
God created (ex nihilo) the physical universe, not dimensions. Dimensions have always existed. They always will, there was merely nothing physical in them (things that are seen are made from things that are unseen). The physical universe is possible because of the interaction of at least four dimensions, 3d+time. Likely more.
quote:
The simple fact of God's omnipresence precludes any possibility of Him experiencing time sequentially. If you wish to solve this problem please study Einstein's theory (now a law) and it's implications to the open view.
Blessings
Rob
Rob, you state several things that are not so. Omnipresence does not require time be relative. Don't mistake time with place, they are not the same thing. Omnipresence means "everywhere present" (which is another issue in itself, is he in hell?).
This theory about God, if it is true, would not prevent him from experiencing sequences and would not prevent him from being in time. All evidence indicated he is in time and experiences sequences just like we do. Only theories about what prophesy is, etc. hold otherwise.
Relativity mixes up the effects of sequences and time itself. Einstein was wrong about time, especially when he said "time is what we see on a watch." How absurd. If I stop my watch, does time stand still? Of course not. Let's prevent deifying him. He was good, not that good.
If two atomic clocks operate at different speeds because one is on the moon and one is on the earth does this mean they are in different times or just that they are measuring time differently? Let's say at a specific moment, one reads 1:00am and one reads 2:00am, is one an hour in the future? Of course not. Just because a cesium clock operates according to his theory doesn't mean that the theory was proved, the test may be improved in the future and the theory disproved, but my thought experiment is really sufficient. When the two cesium clocks were compared again and one was a fraction of a second different can speak of many things besides time itself. At the time they were both read, there were in the same place and at the same time, how did the one from the plane (slower) get through the various sequences of time to arrive back to earth and be measured at the same moment as the other if it were in a different time domain? Did the person touching both of them at the same time experience two different times? Of course not. So there are different factors involved here.
I met Charlie Duke. When we met we shook hands, he was in the same spot in the space time continuum as I was, yet he had spent a week on the moon. Einstein would say he was in a different time. Was he? No, he was really at the same spot in space-time. Ask my wife, she would have known if he wasn’t really there.
"Neuk'em"
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JoeMoore
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 5/28/2002 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]
I met Charlie Duke. When we met we shook hands, he was in the same spot in the space time continuum as I was, yet he had spent a week on the moon. Einstein would say he was in a different time. Was he? No, he was really at the same spot in space-time. Ask my wife, she would have known if he wasn’t really there.
"Neuk'em"
[Joe]
From a Einsteinian perspective, we share nothing. A handshake is miles away in an atomic sense. Because our relative speeds to each other are so small compared to the speed of light (and man's relative speed in travelling to the moon and back was insignificant, also) we come very close. But that's not the same as equal. That's why Einstein didn't negate Newton--he simply showed that Newton's physics didn't work any more at the limits.
The best you can say is that Charlie Duke came close to intersecting your space/time continuum.
Joe Moore
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/29/2002 1:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: Basically I'm with you on believing that the cross was not a predetermined certainty with God before creation…
1Pe 1:19,20 …the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…
2Ti 1:8,9 …the testimony of our Lord…of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began…
Eph 1:3,4 …Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love…
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