 |
| 
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/8/2001 9:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Friends-
In the “Big, Huge, Enormous Problem” thread we discussed the implications which “from the foundation of the world” might have for the open view. In Rev. 13.8 (apparently) and 17.8 (certainly) the phrase describes the fact that certain names have been written (or not written; either one presumes the other) in the Lamb’s Book of Life. The question was, Does the fact that “names” were known to God “from the foundation of the world” provide a challenge to OV claim that acts of free will (like what people name their kids) cannot be definitely foreknown? Chance brought up Heb. 9:24ff which, I thought, was really good. The challenge fades when one remembers that election is “corporate.” I still have questions about this, but never mind.
Let’s try another passage; this time one from Paul. 1 Cor. 2.6-12:
quote:
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, "”What [those things] no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what [those things] God has prepared for those who love him," 10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
Focus on v. 7b, which says this particular hidden wisdom of God was “decreed before the ages for our glory.”
The preposition is pro (before) this time, as opposed to apo (since) as is found in 1 Pet. 1, Heb. 9, and Rev. 13 and 17. I have argued that apo does not demand a pre-Fall date in these later passages and that therefore the cross was not a “determined” certainty before the need for it arose.
Anyhow, here we have a clear reference to God’s having determined something “before the ages.” I want to know if the CROSS is part of what is here predestined before the ages.
- What precisely is “destined” by God before the ages?
- What precisely do the rulers of this age misunderstand (which understanding it would have led them to avoid crucifying Christ)?
Two things.
First, if laid out in syntactical display, the text suggests that the wisdom which was destined before the ages, which the rulers did not understand, is in turn “those things” (note the Greek plurals in the OT quote) prepared by God for those who love him, which in turn are the “gifts bestowed on us by God” of which “we speak” (v. 13, which returns us to Paul’s opening claim in v. 6, “we speak wisdom”). That is, what was “destined” (v. 7) is what was “prepared” (v. 9) which in turn is what has now been “revealed to us via the Spirit” (v. 10) which are the “gifts bestowed on us” of which we speak (v. 13). Confused?
Secondly, the phrase “for if they (the rulers) had understood this” predestined wisdom, they would NOT have crucified Christ appears to make sense only if the cross itself is what is predestined “before the ages.” Chance and I (with Sanders) want to maintain that all that was destined before the ages was that God would have a “people” who love him and that the cross became the unavoidable means to achieving this only with the Fall. But if what is destined “before the ages” does not include the cross, then how would understanding what was predestined have led the rulers to refrain from crucifying Christ? See it?
In other words, is what God predestined before the ages the cross and it’s blessings? Or is what was predestined merely WHAT the cross achieved? That is, is it “THAT the cross would achieve what it achieved” or simply “WHAT the cross achieved”? If the first, then Chance, I, and Sanders are wrong in arguing that the cross only became a certainty in God’s mind after the need for it arose in the Fall. But in this case it’s difficult to make sense of the flow of the text which moves from “predestined wisdom” to “those things prepared for us” to “gifts now bestowed on us” which (comp. v. 13 with v. 6) is the “wisdom” we speak. That is, the predestined wisdom seems to be “WHAT the cross in fact achieved for us.” But if it’s the second, then it’s difficult to make sense of Paul’s claim that had the rulers understood this (which on this second approach would NOT include the cross itself) they would NOT have crucified Christ. If what was destined before the ages was only that God would have a people, blessed by him, in fellowship with him, then how is it the demonic rulers (as Doc views them) didn’t know this anyhow, and if they didn’t understand this, then how would knowing this have convinced them NOT to crucify Christ?
Lastly, a twist. Doesn’t Paul’s claim that HAD the rulers understood this wisdom they would not have crucified Christ (a counter-factual whatever, right?) mean that the future OF THIS EVENT was open? How can Paul speak “counter-factually” of what HE claims is “destined before the ages”?
Of course, one more option is that I’ve lost my mind and am seeing things that aren’t there.
Tom
"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight
Edited by - TGB on 07/08/2001 2:23:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 5:59 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|