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chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 9/13/2001 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

Lee said

quote:
MT 26:34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

Jesus only uses this formula "I tell you the truth," or "Amen, amen," for statements that are very sure, as far as I know. So it does still seem to me that God can use believers' sins as part of his plan, even predicting them, to show that he is still in loving control:

JN 13:38-14:1 Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times! Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

You left out the passage in Luke. Here is what it says.

quote:
Luke: 22:29-34 “And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 “that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” 31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” 33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.” 34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

This passage shows that Christ had knowledge of what satan was going to do to Peter before He made His prediction that Peter would deny Him three times. What is going on here seems to be similar to what went on with Job.

quote:
Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Christ's prediction of Peter's threefold denial is no problem for the open view.

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

Edited by - chance on 09/13/2001 3:59:22 PM

Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/13/2001 2:31 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Lee: "So it does still seem to me that God can use believers' sins as part of his plan, even predicting them, to show that he is still in loving control."
God accommodated his plans to Peters weakness and he used the weakness effectively. He did control the situation and He did it well but I don't think he exhaustively controlled the situation such that He Himself guaranteed Peter's denials.

That is what this passage seems to say to me, though, Jesus didn't pray that Peter would not fail, but that his faith would not fail. "And when you have turned back..." He also seemed to know that Peter would turn back to the Lord as well. But God, it seems, was orchestrating his repentance as well:

MK 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter...
JN 21:17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
JN 21:19 Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

quote:
This passage shows that Christ had knowledge of what satan was going to do to Peter before He made His prediction that Peter would deny Him...
Christ's prediction of Peter's threefold denial is no problem for the open view.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand how the knowledge of Satan's request to sift Peter makes this passage less problematic for the Open View. Could you expand on this a bit for me, please?

God bless you,
Lee

===========================================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

Bob Hill
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98

Posted 9/13/2001 8:22 PM (GMT -6)

In response to the statement on John 12:39, I would like to ask, why did John write in 12:39 that they were unable to believe?

John quoted from Isa 6:9,10, And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ 10 Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” to show that Israel, in general since Israel repeatedly did not believe, they were now hardened by God.

Why? They had rejected Christ for so many times God punished them with blindness. They did not believe because they did not want to believe. John 5:38-47 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” God did the same in Acts 28 to show the condemnation of the nation and the reason why God had set them aside. They disbelieved so many times that they became so hardened and “would not believe”; therefore they could not believe, similarly to Rom 1:24-32 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/21/2001 5:04 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
In response to the statement on John 12:39, I would like to ask, why did John write in 12:39 that they were unable to believe?

John quoted from Isa 6:9,10 "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed." to show that Israel, in general since Israel repeatedly did not believe, they were now hardened by God.

Why? They had rejected Christ for so many times God punished them with blindness. They did not believe because they did not want to believe.

I would say in reply that this also is God's work, though, the passage here says "God is doing this." Even this hardening is not primarily peoples' choice, it seems:

RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

Bob Hill
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98

Posted 9/21/2001 6:01 PM (GMT -6)

Concerning Rom 9:18, I want to back up a little, first. Rom 9:14,15 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

There is no unrighteousness with God. He always conducts Himself in a just way. Now He shows us how He conducts Himself. He shows us that the Jews can’t restrict Him to the only option they think He must take, always treating Israel as the top nation. God shows that He makes His decisions based on His clearly defined principles. The fifteenth verse shows that He can display His mercy to anyone He desires. Israel cannot put restraints on Him.

In this passage, you can’t escape the issue of selection. God has mercy on whomever He pleases. The point here is, was God unrighteous to choose Jacob as the one to receive favored status as a nation? The Jew would naturally answer, “No!” But, putting ethnic advantage aside, why? The answer is, because. Because God has the right to show mercy to whomever He pleases. If He wants to choose one for service but not the other, He can do that. He chose Jacob but not Esau.

The Jews liked that decision. Esau could have “willed” or “run” as much as he pleased. He could have been saved or have been the most godly man whoever lived. And Jacob could have been a rat (And he seemed to be.), but Jacob still would have been chosen.

Paul’s point here seems clear to me. God chose Israel as a favored nation above all others, not because of her worthiness or goodness above others, but simply because He has the right to select one and not the other. God has the complete freedom to do as He desires.

His principle for salvation is laid out when Paul completes this section on Israel’s place by summation in Rom 11:32, “For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”

Further, we see that His desire is to save everyone, not just Israel. This is shown in Exodus 33:19: “Then He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” We see from the context that this quote was a response to Moses because Moses had “found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

Moses had pleased God by his obedience and intercessory behavior. I think the passage should be translated, “I will have mercy on whomever I want to have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I want to have compassion.” Again, we see from Romans 11:32 that for salvation, He wants to have mercy on everyone.

Now, in this context, let’s look at Rom 9:16 “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” Most people have never considered what is not of the willing or running one. What is of the mercy showing God? It could be His stated purpose. It could be the provision of salvation. It could be the act of election for a purpose. It could be the concept that He wants all to be saved. But it is not talking about being saved. The principles of salvation for the covenant people were laid down by God in Genesis 17 and later in the law. The principles of salvation for this dispensation are laid out in Paul’s epistles and the later part of Acts. I believe that the circumcision epistles, Hebrews-Revelation, do not apply to us in the area of salvation. Both sets of principles are of God who shows mercy. But, although the methods of salvation are different for the different dispensations, the means of God’s grace is the same. It is the death of His dear Son. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” First we must read the context of this statement from Exodus 9:16. We see that the magicians could not stand before Moses. They may have died in this plague while God protected Pharaoh and raised him up for God’s stated purpose. Therefore, I don’t think God raised Pharaoh up to become the king of Egypt just to knock him down. He seems to have raised him from the infection of boils and also strengthened his resolve in the face of these awful plagues so He could continue to show in him His power and punish him for his unrepentant heart.

Other expositors agree with this idea. For instance, Rotherham translated this passage in his The Emphasized Bible as follows: “For now might I have put forth my hand, and smitten thee and thy people with pestilence, and thou shouldst have secretly disappeared from the earth; but indeed for this very purpose have I let thee remain, for the purpose of showing thee my might, and that my name may be celebrated in all the earth.” Adam Clarke translated this, “But truly, on this very account, I have caused thee to subsist, that I may . . .” Forster and Marston said in God’s Strategy in Human History, “The context of Paul’s reference is, after all, that of God’s general dealings (‘raising up’ or ‘making to stand’), not of any specific act of God.

Rom 9:18 “Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” God hardens people? Some believe that God elects some to be saved but reprobates the rest – actually actively consigns them to hell.

Now is that what this verse is teaching? Let’s look at an old illustration. Let’s put a lump of moist clay and a lump of hard wax on the window sill of the south side of the building in the hot sun. Now, the sun graciously shines down with its sunlight on a nice sunny Colorado (My home is here.) afternoon. If we come back a couple of hours later while the sun is still well up in the sky, we’ll find a hard rock like lump and a puddle of wax. It was the same sunlight that hardened the clay and melted the wax. This is like the rain of Heb 6:7-8, “For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.”

Now let’s think about these two illustrations. Did the sun harden the clay in the sense that it made the clay be the kind of substance that would harden, or was the sun the cause for the clay to harden? Similarly, was the rain the reason one portion of ground brought up briars and the other useful herbs? Do you see the difference? Was the sun the thing that made the clay hard? Was the sun the thing that made the wax melt or soften? Or was it the sun that made the clay do what clay innately does when heat warms it up? Did the wax do what wax does innately when it gets warm?

You may ask what the Bible means in Exo 3:19 and 4:21 when it reports God speaking to Moses, “But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand” (3:19). And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go” (4:21). Pharaoh is an example of how God shows mercy. God didn’t let the pestilence kill him. Verse 18 could be a conclusion: God has mercy on whomever He wills (Jacob and Pharaoh) and hardens whomever He wills (Pharaoh). But this is not a hardening against salvation. Individual salvation is not an issue here.

Let’s return to Exo 3:19 and 4:21. Here God is speaking to Moses before Pharaoh ever had a chance to harden his own heart. What did God tell Moses? He said, “I am sure (he) will not let you go.” What does that mean? “The king of Egypt has a heart like a lump of clay. I know that is what his heart is like. I know this guy’s heart. It’s not the waxy type. It’s like a lump of clay.” Many expositors agree with this interpretation.

Rotherham translated this, “I will let his heart wax bold, and he will not suffer the people to go.” Further, he wrote, “That Hebrew grammars distinctly avow occasion or permission to be sometimes the sense of verbs which ordinarily signify cause can be verified by a reference to the Hebrew Grammar of Gesenius, . . . After stating that the verbal form . . . called piel denotes intensity and repetition, this grammar adds: ‘It often takes the modifications expressed by permit, . . . . Of this, a good example is found in the verb shalach, ‘to send.’ Notice its modification with reference to the raven and the dove in Gen. VIII. 7,8. Noah sent them ‘forth’; that is he simply ‘let them go.’ So with regard to hayah, ‘to live’; in piel, ‘to cause to live.’ Moses said that the midwives (literally) ‘caused the male children to live’ (Ex. 1.17) – plainly, ‘permitted them,’ ‘refrained from putting them to death.’” There are other examples of this usage. Cf. The Emphasized Bible, p. 919. The reference most similar to our text is Psalm 81:11,12. “But My people would not heed My voice, and Israel would have none of Me. 12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels.” Here, we see that the result of letting them have their own stubborn heart was to walk in their own counsels.

Rotherham quotes Kalisch: “As the external, often accidental, occasion of an event is mostly more obvious, even to the reflecting mind, than its primary cause or its true (often hidden) originator, it has become a linguistic peculiarity in most ancient, especially the Semitic, languages, to use indiscriminately (the occasion) rather than (the cause) so that the phrase, ‘I shall harden the heart of Pharaoh’ means: ‘I know that I shall be the cause of Pharaoh’s obstinacy; my commands and wonders will be an occasion, an inducement to an increasing obduration of his heart.”

In other words, when we see the event with Pharaoh, when God says, “I am going to harden Pharaoh’s heart,” we look at it as the occasion. Pharaoh’s heart is hardened. God is going to harden it. What does He mean when He says I’m going to harden that heart? He means, “I’m going to be the cause of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened, like the clay. We must always consider 1 Timothy 2:4 when we look at this account. God even wanted Pharaoh to be saved. In addition, we must always remember that God does not cause anyone to sin (James 1:13-15). God’s actions are reflected in Psalm 18:25-26, “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; 26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.”

Bob

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/22/2001 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Now, in this context, let's look at Rom 9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Most people have never considered what is not of the willing or running one. What is of the mercy showing God? It could be His stated purpose. It could be the provision of salvation. ... But it is not talking about being saved.

I believe that it is, though, Bob:

RO 9:25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one."

This deals with belonging to God, being in a relationship with him, being in his family, which seems to me to deal with issues of salvation.

quote:
I believe that the circumcision epistles, Hebrews-Revelation, do not apply to us in the area of salvation.

Bob! they certainly do apply to us:

For instance, it seems that 1 Peter was intended not only for Jewish believers, but also for Gentiles:

1PE 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1PE 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do...

And this description of the intended audience in Jude includes both Jewish and Gentile believers:

JUDE 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ.

All the saints fit this description...

Also, Revelation was written to "Jews in spirit", twice Jesus mentions those who "claim to be Jews but are not" (Rev. 2:9, 3:9), thus indicating that "Jewish" in this book corresponds to Paul's description in Romans of "true circumcision":

RO 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

quote:
Rom 9:18 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." God hardens people? Some believe that God elects some to be saved but reprobates the rest – actually actively consigns them to hell.

Now is that what this verse is teaching? ... Was the sun the thing that made the clay hard? Was the sun the thing that made the wax melt or soften? Or was it the sun that made the clay do what clay innately does when heat warms it up? Did the wax do what wax does innately when it gets warm?

But who made the one clay and the other wax? God did that!

PS 119:73 Your hands made me and formed me...
PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being...

quote:
God has mercy on whomever He wills (Jacob and Pharaoh) and hardens whomever He wills (Pharaoh). But this is not a hardening against salvation. Individual salvation is not an issue here.

This does seem to be addressing salvation, though:

RO 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race...

And God does harden or soften people, in the area of salvation:

ISA 63:17 "Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?"
EZE 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I hope that everyone will be saved, I believe it is possible that people may be able to repent after death, and that part of the purpose of judgment is for God to reveal himself to the people who are judged:

EZE 32:15 "When I make Egypt desolate and strip the land of everything in it, when I strike down all who live there, then they will know that I am the Lord."

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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