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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
writerdad
05/18/01 3:47 PM
Should we have what the church of Acts had
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In another post it was remarked that the Assemblies of God church simply wants what the church of Acts has...which got me to pondering so I thought I'd throw this out for all who wish to respond: why should we assume that God wants us to have what the church of Acts had? Given what I would call the logic of situation (catchy title...basically that our times are different from that time as are the needs of the culture around us), it would seem that the gifts God would impart to those of us now would need to be different in order that the gospel might be best presented (although perhaps that is also a false assumption). Regardless, it would seem that, as Christians, our calling is not to assume what God wants for us, but to seek out what God wants for us. So, again, the question: why should we assume that God would want for us what the church of Acts had, given that as we look throughout scripture, God worked in different ways at different times through different types of people. Since we, as a church, are much different than the first church, it would seem to me that God would want different things for us. Anyway, thats my take (but I might have more, as the question as just entered my fertile mind). John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Hanania777
05/18/01 4:40 PM
RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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Fertile mind? That's rich.
As anyone noticed that the church is going through similiar situations that happened in the past? Conflicts of theology and conflicts with people? Arguing over who is better and who is correct? Most people not getting much done because they are too pre-occupied about their own salvation that they stop caring about what other people believe?
yes, I have seen that. People are no longer tackful in their critisim. Nor are the constructive. (they fail to deliver how they could improve, just put down) I don't think we have changed all that much. After all, how many times have you read through the NT and think, "WOW! That is going on today!" How many times have you read one of Paul's Epistles, and think, "I can relate." The truth is, human nature will not change. It is the same today, as it was back then. Same types of questions, only in modern terms.
Since human nature does not change, why chould the Church? The Church was special from the mere thought. It was different. Paul referred to it as the "Great Mystery". It started a new line of Theology where man could go directly before God. I would stand to say the gifts are not different, but the same. After all, we didn't stop saving man and go to pigs.
Many things, great and marvelous happened during those times. Something that we really did not see in the 1800's. Of course, we don't want the actual church, as it wouldn't be up to code, but we do want the idea. We want the fire, the passion, the growth. That is what is meant by having the same church. They actively sought out all the gifts, not just one. (Paul mentions to seek them in Corinthians) They ALL (debate in Spiritual gift going on now) spoke in tongues. Sorry, I had to throw that in, it is not part of this discussion mind you.
Why would you not want it? The way it grows and changes are in the physical aspects. Getting a band, a mic, and other equipment. The essence stays. So let's make it clear, I am debating about that idea. When that changed, it became Catholic. (oooh, I am going to get burn for that one, sorry guys) Wasn't the whole Reformation movement to get back to the beginning? Despite them being in the 1500's, they wanted what was in the 100's. Since we want what was in the 1500's, (we go to Luther, and Calvin as teachers) then we resultingly end up in the 100's. See the logical step?
In short, we are not different, and man does not change. We want the ideology the forst church provided, and God is constant. He doesn't change minds. If he did, then that would mean that he was wrong the first time... (oh, another debate but logical step in this forum) So no where in the Bible does it say we can not. We use the same gifts, and everything else.
Dad, finally, I good question. Now, let's develop it. You did assume what being a christian meant to find his truth, not assume it. Fix that statment. Prove it in the Bible, then don't assume. I swear, if you make another argument of me assuming too much, I will kick you. You just did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (yes, by saying 'seem', you assume)
Lest you be truly a hypocrite. What does the Bible say about them? Clue: Not to be one So, as Christians, what are we called to do? I would refer you to the great commishing thingy at the end of Mathew...
Universally: to spread the light
subjectively: (the call) be a theologian and stregthen faith (seeking truth), be a bystander praying, become a pastor, just be yourself, what ever.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/19/01 12:08 AM
RE: RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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Many good points, however, the church did not start a "new line of theology where man could go direct before God." The church never started anything. We can never find God without God revealing himself to us. The church is built on Christ the rock. Any theology that is out there is one that God started himself. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/19/01 12:22 AM
RE: RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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While man's basic core hasn't changed nor even the different things he does, one could easily argue that he is different at different times. For instance, the church was in need of revival in 1800s so Finney came along. We have Billy Graham in the 20th century. But when the church first started things were different still because there was no church before it, therefore there was a need to establish a church, which would require different gifts than in a time of, say, revival, when there already was a church established. So while man is the same in how he acts through history, he is not the same at every place and time in history. Nor is the church. One could easily argue (as many have) that the reason for such profound gifts in the Acts was for the establishment of the church, not neccessarily that all would have them. Finally, I would grant that it is noble that we desire gifts, even the gifts that the apostles had. But isn't it even more noble to desire what God wants in one's life, for would not one say that what God desires for us is more desirous than what we could never desire, given that he knows best? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/19/01 10:36 AM
Clarification please
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When refering to Gods gifts, I have a couple questions:
1. To whom were the gifts given? Were they given simply to the origional 12? The early church? or to all of mankind, to all that would recieve? If they were only given to the origional 12 or the early church, then why do we have healings, prophesy, speaking in tongues, etc. today. Are they demonic? If so, then why would the strongman be binding himself.
2. Is there any reason to believe that any gift or commandment given by God would be rescinded? Even the commandments made by God in Gen. 1.28 are still in effect to date. My understanding of the warfare worldview as depicted by Doc Boyd may be wrong, but I was under the impression that man was created to be a ruling class. If this is true, why would God revoke much of the power and authority that was given to this ruling class in which to rule with.
Are we saying that God has double standards here? or am I overlooking some major issues here?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:18 AM
RE: Clarification please
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Mr.D: from my perspective the problem that comes in when one says that God has a double standard or that we assume that because the gifts were given once that we should receive them as well (which seems to be your agrument...wouldn't that also imply a double standard when God chose the nation of Israel? Shouldn't each nation have been chosen in some way?) is the attitude that God has to give them to us, that he has to do something we want him to do. God can work in each generation as he sees fit. He does not owe us gifts, nor does he have to give us something just because we ask for it (not unlike a spoiled brat whose parent gives him whatever he screams for). Plus, I can turn your question around and say, is there any reason to believe any gift of God wouldn't be rescinded (I would put commandments in the same catagories...I think you are making a false dicatomony here. Jesus gave us a new commandment, that we love one another. He did not give us a new commandment that we love one another and preform our spiritual gifts...plus Jesus commandments to us were given before the gifts were imparted so joining the two to somehow elevate gifts so they are as binding as Jesus commands doesn't work).
I am not saying that we are not the ruling class, I am saying we are soldiers on a fallen planet fighting the enemy by taking direction from our commanding officer. And as our commanding officer decides which "weapons," we will use to best fight the enemy, be it miracles or other means. In the end, who is leading? Us or God? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:22 AM
Correction please!
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The line should have read ..."I wouldn't put commandments and gifts in the same catagries..." oh and I meant to address you as Mr. I not Mr. D, sorry
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:25 AM
One fine thing
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Where does gifts become a command? As in, you must practice your spiritual gifts and you must have the same ones as the early church had and you are to get each of the same ones that the early church had? Again, who is leading, God or us?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/20/01 9:32 PM
RE: One fine thing
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Spiritual Gifts...
I don't necessarily think that God gave all the gifts to every person, but instead gave humanity access to them. It is not a case where we have control over what happens or where. Through the origional sin, spirit and flesh were separated, but because of Christs death on the cross they have been reunited. No, things are not back to the way they were in the pre-eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil days, but in many ways they are very close. What is the essence of the spiritual gifts? I would say being open to God, being receptive, and most of all being obedient. It is up to us whether or not we let God work through us. We are the ones that open the door (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to let God work through us. It is not all that different from God prompting us to witness to someone or leading us to a particular passage in the bible.
"Where does gifts become a command?" I don't believe that the gifts are a command, for we are the ones that have to recieve them. Instead, we are responsible for the gifts that we are given, whether physical, spiritual, social, etc. When you look at the parable of the talens, the servants did not have to accept the talens, but since they did take the initiative to accept them, they were responsible for what they did with them.
does this clarify things a bit?
Mr. Indifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/21/01 11:23 AM
RE: RE: One fine thing
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MrI: yes, it does. I would agree with you in that I believe we can receive the gifts and it is up to us whether or not God works through is. But what God does through us is up to him, in that he may use something supernaturally or he may not. The problem comes in when Penecostals either through words or the way they act, believe that the supernatural gifts are somehow theirs for the taking, as if they can somehow demand of God what they want. This happens all the time in Penecostal circles, where pastors urge worshipers to just start singing out and God will provide the tongue, or (in the case of my friend who are just had back surgery), to take off the brace and take the healing God wants her to have (it only made her back worse). I think it is important to realize that there are laws we live by. Miracles are called miracles because they are not normal. They happen, but if they happened all the time, they would not be miracles. I think people don't fundamentally understand this fact.
For instance, let's suppose that you believed God was going to give you a job. Would you look for one, then? Most wouldn't. How about your cold? Why take medicine? God'll heal you. I have a friend with a 2 month old baby who isn't getting medical insurance for his family because God'll take care of us. My point is that God, by and large, wants us to be responsible and take responsibility for our lives. Too many miracles would upset this balance. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/21/01 12:01 PM
One fine thing
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WriterDad: My whole life growing up was spent in the BGC/EVFree background. The past 2 years I have been going to a AG church. In many ways I do see this issue from both sides. The way the gifts, as a whole, are treated in my church is that they don't necessarily encourage speaking in toungues, prophesing and the likes, but instead to be able to listen to God speak, discern what is being said, and not to be affraid to act accordingly. I do agree that in too many ways it is used and abused, but we should not use that as a crutch to justify not being obedient. As the old hymn goes"Trust and obey. Fro there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."
May Gods blessings rain down upon your life.
(God bless you.)
MrIndifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/21/01 1:53 PM
RE: One fine thing
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What is it that God speaks to them to do? Seriously.
I sure wish Churches would encourage their members to study the Word and do those things! We have a whole generation of people who supposedly are sensitive to hearing the Spirit direct them, but they don't obey the truth of God plainly revealed.
Quite honestly, I don't care one whit for someone who told me "God told me so and so...and I did it" unless they can also tell me "the word tells me to love my wife...and I'm doing it" or (my daughter hates this one) "the word tells me to obey my parents...and I'm doing it!" or (and I hate this one) "the word tells me not to exasperate my children...and I'm not doing it" or (okay kids) "the word tells me to flee youthful lusts...and I'm doing it" or "the word tells me to love my neighbor...and I'm doing it."
If I'm a skeptic (and I don't think that's a bad thing to be) its because too many professing Christians claim to hear from heaven but live like hell! I have a hard time believing God is speaking to them because they don't listen to what He's written them!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/21/01 10:08 PM
One fine thing
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For me, most of the time it is simply having a passage from the bible pop into my head at a time when I really need it or knowing that a particular person needs a friend or is going through major problems in his/her life. Of course many would simply say that it was a coincidence or something like that. It doesn't always have to be the miraculeous. Pray for Joe. Witness to Sue. Lift up Bob, he is having a bad day. And no it is not one of those "God told me to tell you that..." All in all...It just comes down to learning to listen to God, discern and obey. How can we be obedient if we don't know His voice?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/22/01 12:59 AM
RE: One fine thing
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Personally, I agree with Revival. God speaks through his word. Isn't that enough? From my own experience, I find that many things "pop" into my mind. Are they all from God? I do not believe God "speaks" to people (which is a Christian cliche in itself), when we have his word by which to live and a mind by which to discern it. I can it think can happen, but it is by and large unneeded. By reading his word we know who to pray for, by reading his word we know how to live. The people I know who use the term "God spoke to me," by and large are ministers propping up their sermons. I truly believe that the church would be much better off if we spent more time and energy studying his word than worrying about him speaking to us, listening for him...his voice is in the scriptures. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 8:14 AM
RE: One fine thing
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Okay, I have no problem with this kind of thing. I would not necessarily ascribe it directly to God, but neither would I claim God was not in it or that it was all "coincidence."
Take a look at the article Private Holine to God? for some interesting comments on this subject.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 8:16 AM
RE: One fine thing
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My experience has also been that ministers who emphasize listening and obeying the "voice" the Spirit mainly seem to apply it in the area of giving money - to them!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/22/01 10:35 AM
Hmmm....
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Very good points. Satan has a bad habit of trying to pervert or destroy everything that God does and/or creates and way too often suceeds at that very thing. And yes you are right, way too often we as humans try to make our wants, desires, and beliefs into who we view God as and try to say that those desires are His will for our life. I am sure that the same was happening back in the days of the early church. I guess that is a perfect example why everything needs to be decerned through Gods Word.
According to the Orthodox church The bible can't be interpreted by an individual, but instead must be done within the body. Everything comes down to the body principle. Idealy we are to be in a group setting to read the bible, but I do believe that God does reveal truth to us individually also. Much the same, in the bible most of the time God is speaking through a prophet the masses, but I also believe that He can speak to us individually.
Mr Indifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 12:11 PM
RE: Hmmm....
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There is much to be liked about the Eastern Church's position. The problem arises when they codify the group's decisions as "infallible" and not subject to later review.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
glamdring777
05/22/01 2:00 PM
God said
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Welcome back Mr I. You've been missed.
I'm not completely current on this thread, but I would like to address WD.
Writerdad wrote: God speaks through his word. Isn't that enough?
Me: enough for what? A personal relationship?
WD: From my own experience, I find that many things "pop" into my mind. Are they all from God?
Me: No they are not. There are also some that are yours, and some that are filled with the wisdom of the enemy.
WD: I do not believe God "speaks" to people (which is a Christian cliche in itself), when we have his word by which to live and a mind by which to discern it.
Me: Why does he say we will know his voice then? How else would we have a personal relationship with him? Is it a one sided conversation?
WD: I can it think can happen, but it is by and large unneeded.
Me: I know it can happen, I have experienced it happening, and it is very needed.
WD: By reading his word we know who to pray for, by reading his word we know how to live.
Me: Indeed the word reveals how we should live, but by reading his word we should know who to pray for? hmmm
Here we go with the personal undocumented experience again. I was making dinner and the thought came into my head that my son was not safe. I turned to the phone and was looking at it when it rang. He had broken his arm. I, like Kass, have had a person put on my heart, to lift up in prayer, just as misfortune was about to befall them.
I know that you could say, sheesh you pray too much. Odds are good that sheer chance would give you those great 'coincidental' results.
However I have another story. I prayed for a woman over a period of about a month.
Six months later I had a vivid dream of someone in danger (long story, short) when I gasped awake, I recognized it as a dream from God (longer story, shorter) I immediately said, Who is it Father? I heard Carla Ray. So I prayed earnestly and in faith for Carla. I had never learned the last name of this woman I prayed for. It took me a good portion of the next morning to remember a 'Carla' that I had ever prayed for. Finally I remembered one. I dug out a phone # from a woman that knew her. I called her and asked her if Carla's last name was Ray. She said no. I said Oh, I, uh,
and she went on to say that Carla's first name was actually Carlarae. How could the scriptures have told me that one?
WD: The people I know who use the term "God spoke to me," by and large are ministers propping up their sermons.
Me: I think if that's the kind of people you're hanging with you should come to St Paul.
WD: I truly believe that the church would be much better off if we spent more time and energy studying his word than worrying about him speaking to us, listening for him...his voice is in the scriptures. John 17:3 Harold
Me: I truly believe that only the people who love his law his and meditate on his word are able to hear his voice. If you don't know him well enough as a result of immersing yourself in his word, you will neither have the desire to hear his voice, or the recognition of it when you do.
God bless you and yours
glam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/22/01 9:46 PM
Hmmm....
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Revival,
I have just recently started reading up on the Orthodox church. From what I have read, alot of what they believe seems to have a lot of validity. Their claim that they are the true apostolic church and the attitude they take in that respect sort of scares me.
Mr I
Message Go To Page 2 >>
writerdad
05/18/01 3:47 PM
Should we have what the church of Acts had
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In another post it was remarked that the Assemblies of God church simply wants what the church of Acts has...which got me to pondering so I thought I'd throw this out for all who wish to respond: why should we assume that God wants us to have what the church of Acts had? Given what I would call the logic of situation (catchy title...basically that our times are different from that time as are the needs of the culture around us), it would seem that the gifts God would impart to those of us now would need to be different in order that the gospel might be best presented (although perhaps that is also a false assumption). Regardless, it would seem that, as Christians, our calling is not to assume what God wants for us, but to seek out what God wants for us. So, again, the question: why should we assume that God would want for us what the church of Acts had, given that as we look throughout scripture, God worked in different ways at different times through different types of people. Since we, as a church, are much different than the first church, it would seem to me that God would want different things for us. Anyway, thats my take (but I might have more, as the question as just entered my fertile mind). John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Hanania777
05/18/01 4:40 PM
RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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Fertile mind? That's rich.
As anyone noticed that the church is going through similiar situations that happened in the past? Conflicts of theology and conflicts with people? Arguing over who is better and who is correct? Most people not getting much done because they are too pre-occupied about their own salvation that they stop caring about what other people believe?
yes, I have seen that. People are no longer tackful in their critisim. Nor are the constructive. (they fail to deliver how they could improve, just put down) I don't think we have changed all that much. After all, how many times have you read through the NT and think, "WOW! That is going on today!" How many times have you read one of Paul's Epistles, and think, "I can relate." The truth is, human nature will not change. It is the same today, as it was back then. Same types of questions, only in modern terms.
Since human nature does not change, why chould the Church? The Church was special from the mere thought. It was different. Paul referred to it as the "Great Mystery". It started a new line of Theology where man could go directly before God. I would stand to say the gifts are not different, but the same. After all, we didn't stop saving man and go to pigs.
Many things, great and marvelous happened during those times. Something that we really did not see in the 1800's. Of course, we don't want the actual church, as it wouldn't be up to code, but we do want the idea. We want the fire, the passion, the growth. That is what is meant by having the same church. They actively sought out all the gifts, not just one. (Paul mentions to seek them in Corinthians) They ALL (debate in Spiritual gift going on now) spoke in tongues. Sorry, I had to throw that in, it is not part of this discussion mind you.
Why would you not want it? The way it grows and changes are in the physical aspects. Getting a band, a mic, and other equipment. The essence stays. So let's make it clear, I am debating about that idea. When that changed, it became Catholic. (oooh, I am going to get burn for that one, sorry guys) Wasn't the whole Reformation movement to get back to the beginning? Despite them being in the 1500's, they wanted what was in the 100's. Since we want what was in the 1500's, (we go to Luther, and Calvin as teachers) then we resultingly end up in the 100's. See the logical step?
In short, we are not different, and man does not change. We want the ideology the forst church provided, and God is constant. He doesn't change minds. If he did, then that would mean that he was wrong the first time... (oh, another debate but logical step in this forum) So no where in the Bible does it say we can not. We use the same gifts, and everything else.
Dad, finally, I good question. Now, let's develop it. You did assume what being a christian meant to find his truth, not assume it. Fix that statment. Prove it in the Bible, then don't assume. I swear, if you make another argument of me assuming too much, I will kick you. You just did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (yes, by saying 'seem', you assume)
Lest you be truly a hypocrite. What does the Bible say about them? Clue: Not to be one So, as Christians, what are we called to do? I would refer you to the great commishing thingy at the end of Mathew...
Universally: to spread the light
subjectively: (the call) be a theologian and stregthen faith (seeking truth), be a bystander praying, become a pastor, just be yourself, what ever.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/19/01 12:08 AM
RE: RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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Many good points, however, the church did not start a "new line of theology where man could go direct before God." The church never started anything. We can never find God without God revealing himself to us. The church is built on Christ the rock. Any theology that is out there is one that God started himself. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/19/01 12:22 AM
RE: RE: Should we have what the church of Acts had
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While man's basic core hasn't changed nor even the different things he does, one could easily argue that he is different at different times. For instance, the church was in need of revival in 1800s so Finney came along. We have Billy Graham in the 20th century. But when the church first started things were different still because there was no church before it, therefore there was a need to establish a church, which would require different gifts than in a time of, say, revival, when there already was a church established. So while man is the same in how he acts through history, he is not the same at every place and time in history. Nor is the church. One could easily argue (as many have) that the reason for such profound gifts in the Acts was for the establishment of the church, not neccessarily that all would have them. Finally, I would grant that it is noble that we desire gifts, even the gifts that the apostles had. But isn't it even more noble to desire what God wants in one's life, for would not one say that what God desires for us is more desirous than what we could never desire, given that he knows best? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/19/01 10:36 AM
Clarification please
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When refering to Gods gifts, I have a couple questions:
1. To whom were the gifts given? Were they given simply to the origional 12? The early church? or to all of mankind, to all that would recieve? If they were only given to the origional 12 or the early church, then why do we have healings, prophesy, speaking in tongues, etc. today. Are they demonic? If so, then why would the strongman be binding himself.
2. Is there any reason to believe that any gift or commandment given by God would be rescinded? Even the commandments made by God in Gen. 1.28 are still in effect to date. My understanding of the warfare worldview as depicted by Doc Boyd may be wrong, but I was under the impression that man was created to be a ruling class. If this is true, why would God revoke much of the power and authority that was given to this ruling class in which to rule with.
Are we saying that God has double standards here? or am I overlooking some major issues here?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:18 AM
RE: Clarification please
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Mr.D: from my perspective the problem that comes in when one says that God has a double standard or that we assume that because the gifts were given once that we should receive them as well (which seems to be your agrument...wouldn't that also imply a double standard when God chose the nation of Israel? Shouldn't each nation have been chosen in some way?) is the attitude that God has to give them to us, that he has to do something we want him to do. God can work in each generation as he sees fit. He does not owe us gifts, nor does he have to give us something just because we ask for it (not unlike a spoiled brat whose parent gives him whatever he screams for). Plus, I can turn your question around and say, is there any reason to believe any gift of God wouldn't be rescinded (I would put commandments in the same catagories...I think you are making a false dicatomony here. Jesus gave us a new commandment, that we love one another. He did not give us a new commandment that we love one another and preform our spiritual gifts...plus Jesus commandments to us were given before the gifts were imparted so joining the two to somehow elevate gifts so they are as binding as Jesus commands doesn't work).
I am not saying that we are not the ruling class, I am saying we are soldiers on a fallen planet fighting the enemy by taking direction from our commanding officer. And as our commanding officer decides which "weapons," we will use to best fight the enemy, be it miracles or other means. In the end, who is leading? Us or God? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:22 AM
Correction please!
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The line should have read ..."I wouldn't put commandments and gifts in the same catagries..." oh and I meant to address you as Mr. I not Mr. D, sorry
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/20/01 1:25 AM
One fine thing
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Where does gifts become a command? As in, you must practice your spiritual gifts and you must have the same ones as the early church had and you are to get each of the same ones that the early church had? Again, who is leading, God or us?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/20/01 9:32 PM
RE: One fine thing
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Spiritual Gifts...
I don't necessarily think that God gave all the gifts to every person, but instead gave humanity access to them. It is not a case where we have control over what happens or where. Through the origional sin, spirit and flesh were separated, but because of Christs death on the cross they have been reunited. No, things are not back to the way they were in the pre-eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil days, but in many ways they are very close. What is the essence of the spiritual gifts? I would say being open to God, being receptive, and most of all being obedient. It is up to us whether or not we let God work through us. We are the ones that open the door (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to let God work through us. It is not all that different from God prompting us to witness to someone or leading us to a particular passage in the bible.
"Where does gifts become a command?" I don't believe that the gifts are a command, for we are the ones that have to recieve them. Instead, we are responsible for the gifts that we are given, whether physical, spiritual, social, etc. When you look at the parable of the talens, the servants did not have to accept the talens, but since they did take the initiative to accept them, they were responsible for what they did with them.
does this clarify things a bit?
Mr. Indifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/21/01 11:23 AM
RE: RE: One fine thing
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MrI: yes, it does. I would agree with you in that I believe we can receive the gifts and it is up to us whether or not God works through is. But what God does through us is up to him, in that he may use something supernaturally or he may not. The problem comes in when Penecostals either through words or the way they act, believe that the supernatural gifts are somehow theirs for the taking, as if they can somehow demand of God what they want. This happens all the time in Penecostal circles, where pastors urge worshipers to just start singing out and God will provide the tongue, or (in the case of my friend who are just had back surgery), to take off the brace and take the healing God wants her to have (it only made her back worse). I think it is important to realize that there are laws we live by. Miracles are called miracles because they are not normal. They happen, but if they happened all the time, they would not be miracles. I think people don't fundamentally understand this fact.
For instance, let's suppose that you believed God was going to give you a job. Would you look for one, then? Most wouldn't. How about your cold? Why take medicine? God'll heal you. I have a friend with a 2 month old baby who isn't getting medical insurance for his family because God'll take care of us. My point is that God, by and large, wants us to be responsible and take responsibility for our lives. Too many miracles would upset this balance. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/21/01 12:01 PM
One fine thing
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WriterDad: My whole life growing up was spent in the BGC/EVFree background. The past 2 years I have been going to a AG church. In many ways I do see this issue from both sides. The way the gifts, as a whole, are treated in my church is that they don't necessarily encourage speaking in toungues, prophesing and the likes, but instead to be able to listen to God speak, discern what is being said, and not to be affraid to act accordingly. I do agree that in too many ways it is used and abused, but we should not use that as a crutch to justify not being obedient. As the old hymn goes"Trust and obey. Fro there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."
May Gods blessings rain down upon your life.
(God bless you.)
MrIndifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/21/01 1:53 PM
RE: One fine thing
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What is it that God speaks to them to do? Seriously.
I sure wish Churches would encourage their members to study the Word and do those things! We have a whole generation of people who supposedly are sensitive to hearing the Spirit direct them, but they don't obey the truth of God plainly revealed.
Quite honestly, I don't care one whit for someone who told me "God told me so and so...and I did it" unless they can also tell me "the word tells me to love my wife...and I'm doing it" or (my daughter hates this one) "the word tells me to obey my parents...and I'm doing it!" or (and I hate this one) "the word tells me not to exasperate my children...and I'm not doing it" or (okay kids) "the word tells me to flee youthful lusts...and I'm doing it" or "the word tells me to love my neighbor...and I'm doing it."
If I'm a skeptic (and I don't think that's a bad thing to be) its because too many professing Christians claim to hear from heaven but live like hell! I have a hard time believing God is speaking to them because they don't listen to what He's written them!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/21/01 10:08 PM
One fine thing
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For me, most of the time it is simply having a passage from the bible pop into my head at a time when I really need it or knowing that a particular person needs a friend or is going through major problems in his/her life. Of course many would simply say that it was a coincidence or something like that. It doesn't always have to be the miraculeous. Pray for Joe. Witness to Sue. Lift up Bob, he is having a bad day. And no it is not one of those "God told me to tell you that..." All in all...It just comes down to learning to listen to God, discern and obey. How can we be obedient if we don't know His voice?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/22/01 12:59 AM
RE: One fine thing
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Personally, I agree with Revival. God speaks through his word. Isn't that enough? From my own experience, I find that many things "pop" into my mind. Are they all from God? I do not believe God "speaks" to people (which is a Christian cliche in itself), when we have his word by which to live and a mind by which to discern it. I can it think can happen, but it is by and large unneeded. By reading his word we know who to pray for, by reading his word we know how to live. The people I know who use the term "God spoke to me," by and large are ministers propping up their sermons. I truly believe that the church would be much better off if we spent more time and energy studying his word than worrying about him speaking to us, listening for him...his voice is in the scriptures. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 8:14 AM
RE: One fine thing
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Okay, I have no problem with this kind of thing. I would not necessarily ascribe it directly to God, but neither would I claim God was not in it or that it was all "coincidence."
Take a look at the article Private Holine to God? for some interesting comments on this subject.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 8:16 AM
RE: One fine thing
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My experience has also been that ministers who emphasize listening and obeying the "voice" the Spirit mainly seem to apply it in the area of giving money - to them!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/22/01 10:35 AM
Hmmm....
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Very good points. Satan has a bad habit of trying to pervert or destroy everything that God does and/or creates and way too often suceeds at that very thing. And yes you are right, way too often we as humans try to make our wants, desires, and beliefs into who we view God as and try to say that those desires are His will for our life. I am sure that the same was happening back in the days of the early church. I guess that is a perfect example why everything needs to be decerned through Gods Word.
According to the Orthodox church The bible can't be interpreted by an individual, but instead must be done within the body. Everything comes down to the body principle. Idealy we are to be in a group setting to read the bible, but I do believe that God does reveal truth to us individually also. Much the same, in the bible most of the time God is speaking through a prophet the masses, but I also believe that He can speak to us individually.
Mr Indifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
05/22/01 12:11 PM
RE: Hmmm....
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There is much to be liked about the Eastern Church's position. The problem arises when they codify the group's decisions as "infallible" and not subject to later review.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
glamdring777
05/22/01 2:00 PM
God said
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Welcome back Mr I. You've been missed.
I'm not completely current on this thread, but I would like to address WD.
Writerdad wrote: God speaks through his word. Isn't that enough?
Me: enough for what? A personal relationship?
WD: From my own experience, I find that many things "pop" into my mind. Are they all from God?
Me: No they are not. There are also some that are yours, and some that are filled with the wisdom of the enemy.
WD: I do not believe God "speaks" to people (which is a Christian cliche in itself), when we have his word by which to live and a mind by which to discern it.
Me: Why does he say we will know his voice then? How else would we have a personal relationship with him? Is it a one sided conversation?
WD: I can it think can happen, but it is by and large unneeded.
Me: I know it can happen, I have experienced it happening, and it is very needed.
WD: By reading his word we know who to pray for, by reading his word we know how to live.
Me: Indeed the word reveals how we should live, but by reading his word we should know who to pray for? hmmm
Here we go with the personal undocumented experience again. I was making dinner and the thought came into my head that my son was not safe. I turned to the phone and was looking at it when it rang. He had broken his arm. I, like Kass, have had a person put on my heart, to lift up in prayer, just as misfortune was about to befall them.
I know that you could say, sheesh you pray too much. Odds are good that sheer chance would give you those great 'coincidental' results.
However I have another story. I prayed for a woman over a period of about a month.
Six months later I had a vivid dream of someone in danger (long story, short) when I gasped awake, I recognized it as a dream from God (longer story, shorter) I immediately said, Who is it Father? I heard Carla Ray. So I prayed earnestly and in faith for Carla. I had never learned the last name of this woman I prayed for. It took me a good portion of the next morning to remember a 'Carla' that I had ever prayed for. Finally I remembered one. I dug out a phone # from a woman that knew her. I called her and asked her if Carla's last name was Ray. She said no. I said Oh, I, uh,
and she went on to say that Carla's first name was actually Carlarae. How could the scriptures have told me that one?
WD: The people I know who use the term "God spoke to me," by and large are ministers propping up their sermons.
Me: I think if that's the kind of people you're hanging with you should come to St Paul.
WD: I truly believe that the church would be much better off if we spent more time and energy studying his word than worrying about him speaking to us, listening for him...his voice is in the scriptures. John 17:3 Harold
Me: I truly believe that only the people who love his law his and meditate on his word are able to hear his voice. If you don't know him well enough as a result of immersing yourself in his word, you will neither have the desire to hear his voice, or the recognition of it when you do.
God bless you and yours
glam
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/22/01 9:46 PM
Hmmm....
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Revival,
I have just recently started reading up on the Orthodox church. From what I have read, alot of what they believe seems to have a lot of validity. Their claim that they are the true apostolic church and the attitude they take in that respect sort of scares me.
Mr I
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