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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 9:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | I have a question for the OVers- does God ever intend that believers suffer? Paul seemed to think so - many verses attest to that, including:
Romans 5
2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.
It seems that he's saying that good comes out of suffering. We should rejoice in our suffering.
Now it could be that God doesn't DIRECTLY send the suffering, but instead uses the suffering for a good cause. However, the same effect occurs- suffering happens, it produces perseverance, then character, etc.
Regardless of the primary or secondary cause, the end result is still an objectively good thing. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/28/2003 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | You know, I'm seeing a pattern here. Everytime I'm waiting for a response from you, you go off and start a whole nother link that keeps you busy until I've forgotten about my original post.
These are just evasion tactics to avoid my superior intellect , guffaw, guffaw...
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I have a question for the OVers- does God ever intend that believers suffer? Paul seemed to think so - many verses attest to that, including:
Within a WWV, if a general orders a squadron to take a hill, does he ever intend for them to suffer casualties. No. Does he know that they likely will suffer some casualties? Yes. Does he believe it will be worth it in the long-run? Yes.
quote:
Romans 5
2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Good may come from suffering but that may be due to how our sinful natures tend to get so easily distracted that we are in need of God's megahorn to shake us up. Not all suffering leads to perseverance. This argues from the part to the whole.
quote:
It seems that he's saying that good comes out of suffering. We should rejoice in our suffering.
I always rejoice over all my board exchanges with Pow .
quote:
Now it could be that God doesn't DIRECTLY send the suffering, but instead uses the suffering for a good cause. However, the same effect occurs- suffering happens, it produces perseverance, then character, etc.
Regardless of the primary or secondary cause, the end result is still an objectively good thing.
Oh, it ain't necessarily so. It ain't necessarily so...
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | Wait, which one am i supposed to be replying to? My finite brain has been spinning, so i can't remember. | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/28/2003 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | God's intent and will was that Jesus suffer. Jesus' suffering was the only way for us to be saved. He not only suffered a painful death on the cross, but he suffered persecution, poverty, loneliness, and much else throughout his life. All part of God's plan and will. Had God willed Jesus come as an earthly king with a castle, wealth, and fame, it would not have accomplished what God wanted to accomplish. So we can say that ,yes, suffering can indeed be intended by God.
"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Joseph also seems to have suffered as part of God's plan. "Joseph said to them, 'Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for my good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
Joseph here is speaking to his brothers regarding their sale of him into slavery. He makes it clear that God had a purpose. He intended it for the good of far more souls than Joseph and his brothers. Obviously, God could have prevented Joseph being sold as a slave, but He did not. He permitted it, and it is clear that there was a Divine plan and purpose accomplished by God as a result of Joseph's sufferings (not only slavery but also false imprisonment). | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/28/2003 10:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Wait, which one am i supposed to be replying to? My finite brain has been spinning, so i can't remember.
The one where I explain about the psychic balm effect of theology?
That's okay. It was probably never meant to happen anyways...
quote:
God's intent and will was that Jesus suffer. Jesus' suffering was the only way for us to be saved. He not only suffered a painful death on the cross, but he suffered persecution, poverty, loneliness, and much else throughout his life. All part of God's plan and will. Had God willed Jesus come as an earthly king with a castle, wealth, and fame, it would not have accomplished what God wanted to accomplish. So we can say that ,yes, suffering can indeed be intended by God.
Yes, but wasn't Jesus' need to suffer on the cross contingent on us humans falling? Or was that intended by God as well?
quote:
Joseph also seems to have suffered as part of God's plan. "Joseph said to them, 'Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for my good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
Joseph here is speaking to his brothers regarding their sale of him into slavery. He makes it clear that God had a purpose. He intended it for the good of far more souls than Joseph and his brothers. Obviously, God could have prevented Joseph being sold as a slave, but He did not. He permitted it, and it is clear that there was a Divine plan and purpose accomplished by God as a result of Joseph's sufferings (not only slavery but also false imprisonment).
As stated before, this does argue from the part to the whole. As could also be said about Joseph's ability to foresee that there would be seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/28/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | | DLW, indeed Jesus suffering was contingent on the Fall. It would never have happened had it not been for those two gawsh darn sinners Adam and Eve! However, it does not negate the fact that God did intend for Jesus to suffer. While it might not have been the original intent from the beginning, it certainly became God's intent after the Fall. So whether it is contingent on the Fall becomes quite moot in deciding whether it was God's intention for Jesus to suffer. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/28/2003 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Fleetwood
DLW, indeed Jesus suffering was contingent on the Fall. It would never have happened had it not been for those two gawsh darn sinners Adam and Eve! However, it does not negate the fact that God did intend for Jesus to suffer. While it might not have been the original intent from the beginning, it certainly became God's intent after the Fall. So whether it is contingent on the Fall becomes quite moot in deciding whether it was God's intention for Jesus to suffer.
Did God foreknow that Adam and Eve were going to fall before it happened?
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/28/2003 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, God in some cases brings about or perhaps allows (depending on the case) suffering. I see no reason as an OVTheist to not agree with this.
What I think the OV says with regard to this issue is that not ALL suffering is a result of God's causation (whether primary or secondary). Much of the suffering that occurs in the world is as a result of people making morally responsible choices to commit evil.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 4:55 PM (GMT -6) | | OK , JOhn, I can dig what you're saying. I also don't believe all suffering is directly willed by God. But I can't get around the fact that if not directly willed, it must be permissively willed, b/c God is omnipotent. He has it within his capability to prevent suffering when he sees fit. The fact that he does not prevent it in a given instance means that he, if not directly, permissively allowed that instance of suffering.
If you're going to say no, then I ask why? Is it b/c God could not stop the suffering from happening? Since he is perfect and omnibenevolent, he surely does not WANT suffering to occur for its own sake, right? So why does he permissively allow it unless there is some good reason (unbenownst to us) for him to allow a particular act of suffering to occur? | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 7/28/2003 7:28 PM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt
If you're going to say no, then I ask why? Is it b/c God could not stop the suffering from happening? Since he is perfect and omnibenevolent, he surely does not WANT suffering to occur for its own sake, right? So why does he permissively allow it unless there is some good reason (unbenownst to us) for him to allow a particular act of suffering to occur?
Iconoclast
If God stopped ALL suffering then no one could choose against God. God would prevent ALL evil choices and thus there would not actually be any free-will. Thus no one could choose love. Thus it would not be possible for us to love one another. "Love must be chosen" logically entails the ability to choose against love and thus cause suffering of others. Choosing to suffer oneself FOR others IS love. God did plan for Jesus to suffer. But this is just God choosing to suffer Himself FOR us. God shows us what it means to choose to love one another.
Doc wrote a book on this called "Satan and the Problem of Evil". I highly recommend this book if you want to explore this topic in depth.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/29/2003 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Yes, the Bible certainly teaches that Christians will suffer. We are to share in the sufferings of Christ:
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. (1 Pet. 4:1-2)
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)
It is clear that there is some suffering that is in God's will: "Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (1 Pet. 4:19).
The question remains, what type of suffering is it that God expects us to suffer? Traditionally, some people have claimed that it is God's will that we suffer loss, tragedy, sickness and disease, financial hardships, and things like that. Yet the context of the verses above teach nothing of the kind. 1 Peter chapters three and four make it clear that we are to suffer persecution at the hands of men for the sake of the gospel.
The Scripture is clear that it is persecution that we are to suffer, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (1 Tim. 3:12) Jesus said that we would suffer tribulation (John 16:33). Not once do we find it to be God's will to suffer other things that the church has taught must be suffered.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/29/2003 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
OK , JOhn, I can dig what you're saying. I also don't believe all suffering is directly willed by God. But I can't get around the fact that if not directly willed, it must be permissively willed, b/c God is omnipotent. He has it within his capability to prevent suffering when he sees fit. The fact that he does not prevent it in a given instance means that he, if not directly, permissively allowed that instance of suffering.
Wait, didn't you just say you were a determinist on the other thread? I don't see any difference between directly or permissively willing something. In the end it is willed by God.
quote:
If you're going to say no, then I ask why? Is it b/c God could not stop the suffering from happening? Since he is perfect and omnibenevolent, he surely does not WANT suffering to occur for its own sake, right? So why does he permissively allow it unless there is some good reason (unbenownst to us) for him to allow a particular act of suffering to occur?
keep believing that,
irregardless of the lack of evidence in favor of it as an exhaustive proposition, it may serve as a salve.
Welcome back VW.
missed you,
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/29/2003 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
Welcome back VW.
missed you,
dlw
Thanks DLW. I didn't think anyone noticed that I was gone. It's so kind of you to tell me that I was missed
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/29/2003 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW - Sigh. I did say I was a determinist, and having primary and secondary causes is perfectly compatible with determinism. When I said that God could intentionally and permissively will something, I meant him being a primary and secondary cause of any given action, respectfully.
My response to John was - "how do you get around the fact that everything is willed by God - either b/c he WANTS it to be that way, or b/c he ALLOWS it to be that way?"
I'm saying everything that happens happens b/c of God's will. If he absolutely did not want an event to occur, he would prevent it.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/29/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
DLW - Sigh. I did say I was a determinist, and having primary and secondary causes is perfectly compatible with determinism. When I said that God could intentionally and permissively will something, I meant him being a primary and secondary cause of any given action, respectfully.
My response to John was - "how do you get around the fact that everything is willed by God - either b/c he WANTS it to be that way, or b/c he ALLOWS it to be that way?"
I'm saying everything that happens happens b/c of God's will. If he absolutely did not want an event to occur, he would prevent it.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis
And I'm saying that if something bad is going to happen and God could stop it and doesn't, ultimately it doesn't make a rats ass whether God wills it directly or just permits it.
The responsibility is with the chooser...
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/29/2003 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well who's the chooser then? Is the chooser the created mortal, or is the chooser the omnipotent one who chose to created the universe, and has the capability to stop any action he so chooses to? You seem to agree with me by saying who gives a rat's a** whether God intends it or permits it. Ok, fine. But don't you see the implication of that? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/29/2003 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
My response to John was - "how do you get around the fact that everything is willed by God - either b/c he WANTS it to be that way, or b/c he ALLOWS it to be that way?"
I'm saying everything that happens happens b/c of God's will. If he absolutely did not want an event to occur, he would prevent it.
The best way I answer this question (and of course I am open to new and better ways of explaining this) is that love must be chosen. In order for love to be chosen, hate must be a possibility (though definitely NOT an inevitability). One of my most favorite Finney quotes is "Where sin occurs God cannot wisely prevent it." That is to say, it would not be wise for God to remove free will as often and as soon as it is abused.
Further, some suffering is gratuitous. That is, some suffering finds its direct cause simply because of cause and effect, and not necessarily because God willed it directly or even indirectly.
For instance, I know of a young child of four whose life was crushed out of her when she fell under the wheel of a car. Her grandmother had left her in the car with it running while she ran back into the house to get something. The child being curious, decided to try to "drive" the car like grandma does. She panicked after she pulled the gear shift into reverse, tried to exit the vehicle, and fell under the tire and was crushed.
There was certainly cause and effect and negligence and ignorance involved, but I don't see a need to make this out to be directly or indirectly a divinely caused event. To say it was is really unnecessary logically and extremely insensitive to the grieving family.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2003 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | I found a really neat site -- one with both art and text. Here are two offerings form that site on the subject of SUFFERING:
8. A New Perspective on Suffering (Psalm 119:65-75)
quote:
A New Perspective on Affliction
TETH
You have dealt well with you servant,
Oh Lord, according to you word.
Teach me good judgment and knowledge,
for I believe Your Commandments.
Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.
You are good, and do good; teach me your
statutes.
The proud have forged a lie against me,
but I will keep Your precepts with my whole
heart.
Their heart is as fat as grease, but I delight in
your law.
It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
that I may learn Your statutes.
The law of Your mouth is better to me than
thousands of coins of silver.
YOD
Your hands have made me and fashioned
me; give me understanding that I may learn
Your commandments.
Those who fear You will be glad when they see
me, because I have hoped in Your word.
I know, O Lord, that your judgments are
right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted
me.
Psalm 119, Verses 65-75
http://www.botticellisvision.com/st%20francis%20web%20site/A%20New%20Perspective%20on%20Affliction.htm
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2003 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
So much for God as love.
nice pics Pow,
dlw
Thanks. Check out his site. Very relaxing. Calm site!!!!!
http://www.botticellisvision.com/st%20francis%20web%20site/Francis'%20Corner%20Index%20Page%202.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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