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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/7/2002 6:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi all-
A friend of mine challenged me on the open view with the following:
Gen. 49.10: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.”
Couple things my friend notes: 1) This is a Messianic prophecy, 2) It specifies that the Messiah shall be a descendant of Judah, 3) It specifies that the Messiah shall be a political ruler whom all nations will obey. But what is most important it that 4) this prophecy appears to determine that Judah’s descendents will lead Israel. One can attempt to argue that it’s not Messianic. Let’s not concentrate on that. It's not important to the point. Point is, this prophecy places the leadership of Israel in Judah’s hands. God now knows THIS a "settled."
On the basis of this, then, my friend asked me to consider the open view interpretation of God’s promise to make of Saul an “everlasting dynasty” (1Sam. 13.13)? Saul was from the tribe of Benjamin. How could God determine through Jacob’s prophesy that the leadership of Israel would remain in Judah’s desencents and later claim (through Samuel, e.g., 1Sm 13.13) that this leadership COULD HAVE remained with Saul (of Benjamin) and his descendents “for all time?” Was God sincere when he offered such a dynasty to Saul, knowing for certain that Saul would be rejected and a descendent of Judah would establish leadership in Israel for all time?
My friend claims that…
a) God WAS sincere in his offer to Saul,
b) God knew as CERTAIN that Saul would fail (for Jacob’s prophesy precluded the permanent rule in Israel of the descendents of Benjamin).
c) There’s NO real contradiction between (a) and (b). This seems like a contradiction to us because we are finite, but it’s what Scripture teaches. What is claimed is true: God did establish Judah’s line as the line to “rule” for all time AND God also did sincerely offer Saul a permanent ruling dynasty. We have to live with the tension (or we have admit that there's no contradiction invovled in God's being "sincere" in offering what he knows is impossible [e.g., an everlasting dynasty]).
Come on ladies and gets!
Tom
"Kind of like donut holes--no one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman
Edited by - TGB on 11/08/2002 12:24:46 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 11/7/2002 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Not willing to close the site just yet.
Lets think here. If God could promise the lineage to Saul and remove it, couldn't he promise to Judah and remove it just as easily?
Didn't "the scepter depart from Judah" while Saul was King? Seems the "prophecy" is not that iron clad after all.
Have all the nations come in obedience to a descendant of Judah? Is a descendant of Judah reigning now? Has one reigned for 2600 years (since David)? No. Yet the prophecy says, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.”
One could say that the coming of obedience of people to the ruler is not part of the "until". Still, between David and Jesus, a descendent of Jacob did not rule. So again, it seems the prophecy is not as iron clad as your friend would have it.
Could God be smart enough to find a way to fulfill Gen 49:10 even if Saul's descendants had stayed on the throne...? Apparently the prophecy allows for some "interruptions" and some twists and turns (see above). If it admits breaks, as it certainly does, what difference does it make if its a few years (with Saul) or several centuries (as from David to Jesus)? In other words, the only difference between the Open View and your friend on this matter is that we (might) hold that the gap would have been between Saul to Jesus instead of David to Jesus.
OR, we could follow the majority of scholars and regard the whole poem of ch. 49 as a vaticinia ex evenu.. Does your view of inspiration allow for commentaries on present states to be highlighted by putting them in the mouth of ancient heroic figures?
Agh, lets scrap this last one. we're evangelicals!!!!
Either way, I'm convinced ancients didn't take prophecies as iron clad predictions the way we're inclined to do.
What do you think?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
Edited by - GregBoyd on 11/08/2002 01:10:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/7/2002 10:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg-
You save my faith once again. 
quote:
If God could promise the lineage to Saul and remove it, couldn't he promise to Judah and remove it just as easily?
Yes.
quote:
Didn't "the scepter depart from Judah" while Saul was King?
Well, eh, yes.
quote:
Seems the "prophecy" is not that iron clad after all.
Right.
quote:
Have all the nations come in obedience to a descendant of Judah?
Well, close to it, but not completely. The nations are believing in Jesus, the desendant of Judah.
quote:
Is a descendant of Judah reigning now? Has one reigned for 2600 years (since David)? No.
Actually, yes. See Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost. The resurrection is interpreted by Peter as fulfillment of Ps. 16, God's promise to place a desendant of David (Judah) on the throne. The resurrection of Christ thus fulfills the promise. THe desendant of Judah has been reigning since then and will reign forever.
quote:
Yet the prophecy says, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.”
Right. But like I said, Jesus fulfills this with his ascension.
quote:
One could say that the coming of obedience of people to the ruler is not part of the "until". Still, between David and Jesus, a descendent of Jacob did not rule. So again, it seems the prophecy is not as iron clad as your friend would have it.
Right!
quote:
Could God be smart enough to find a way to fulfill Gen 49:10 even if Saul's descendants had stayed on the throne...? Apparently the prophecy allows for some "interruptions" and some twists and turns (see above).
Open theists will have to go in this direction. And it does work.
quote:
OR, we could follow the majority of scholars and regard the whole poem of ch. 49 as a vaticinia ex evenu.. Does your view of inspiration allow for commentaries on present states to be highlighted by putting them in the mouth of ancient heroic figures?
I struggle with that. Won't say absolutley no to it, but I do struggle with itl
Thanks Bro! Good stuff. I'll pass it along to my friend and then take cover!
Tom
"Kind of like donut holes--no one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman
Edited by - TGB on 11/08/2002 03:55:41 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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