 |
| 
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/11/2002 3:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | A friend challenges me regarding the open view on the basis of Acts 18.9-11: “One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: ‘Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.’ So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
He basically argues that “I have many people in this city” refers to those God knows ‘certainly’ will believe in Christ. How can God possess foreknowledge of the certain faith of such people if free will decisions are contingent? Since God does here possess such knowledge, the open is wrong.
Ideas? Comments?
Tom
"No one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
 |
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 11/11/2002 5:48 AM (GMT -6) | | I feel it is a stretch to say this means this will be people who will accept Christ and God knows who. It could just as simply be people who already love God and God knows how they will respond to him based on their prior actions. But, it could simply mean those who are already Christians, for there had to be many who already believed in Jesus, for Acts 5:14 states "Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord Jesus and were added to their number."
It is obvious from this verse that the Christian faith was growing before Paul and those who believed were throughout the city.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/11/2002 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
...for Acts 5:14 states "Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord Jesus and were added to their number."
But we're in Corinth in Acts 18. Acts 5 would hardly affect this. But there is the immediately preceding v. 8 where Luke mentions that "many Corinthians believed and were baptized." Verse 10 may be referring to THESE. It might be that simple.
Thanks!
Tom
"No one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/12/2002 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: It might be that simple.
Love that simple.
Sometimes It's just good to read the scripture while just forgetting the contemporary debates, or the Cal/Armin, or the Aug/Pel... | | Back to Top | | |
|
geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 11/12/2002 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | you assumed that these people aren't the ones who responded to paul the day before? that seems reasonble.
supposing that this is so, this actually fits very well with a position taken by another open theist, John Sanders, on a different topic.
in inclusivism, God has made his grace available to all peoples everywhere beyond the spacial/temporal limits of the written/spoken gospel. It is the other logical outcome of the notion that God desires all men to be saved (other than open theism). these people who belonged to God were the one's who were already responding to the grace that was available to them and would most likely take that next step and respond positively to the Gospel as they were headed in that direction.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 11/12/2002 1:13:55 PM
Edited by - geebob on 11/12/2002 1:15:51 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 11/14/2002 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | I seriously doubt that the "many people" the Lord was referring to were already Christians, for the Lord is saying this to Paul to encourage him to continue EVANGELIZING. Compare this verse:
Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
With Sanders, I would hold that the Lord opens hearts to allow them to receive the Gospel. Indeed, he opens the hearts of all who will allow their heart to be opened. The Lord knew that many people had opened hearts to receive Paul's message. They were "ripe." They had been made sheeps who would now "hear his voice" and "come to the Father" (Jn 10). They had been set aside an ordained for eternal life (Acts 13:48).
One way of looking at it.
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/14/2002 6:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I seriously doubt that the "many people" the Lord was referring to were already Christians, for the Lord is saying this to Paul to encourage him to continue EVANGELIZING.
Right, but how is NOT encouraging to Paul to hear God say, "Paul, look at how many have already believed! Look at the many people I already have here in this city! Don't stop now. Keep going!" It's difficult to argue that when many people in a resistant culture turn to Christ under the threat of persecution, that this is NOT encouragement to CONTINUE to evagelize.
Having said that, Adam Clarke takes your view Doc. Or is it you take Adam Clarke's view?  But if we go this way we have to account for how it is God knows as a "certainty" the future free will decisoins of "many" people? This is my friends point. I think it IS possible for God to know that "many" will yet believe if a) he doesn't know this eternally, b) it doesn't include a printout list of the names and addresses of those who will believe, as in 521 persons will believe; not 520, not 522, just 520. So then, c) God's certainty that many would yet believe is predicated not upon a) an eternal decree that so-and-so will believe, or b) a divine timeless knowledge of the actual events, but c) factors that exist "at the time" God says this to Paul. These factors might include a) the already favorable response to the gospel, b) the added influence of these believers (Paul's now not working alone), c) God's present knowledge of the state of preparedness of the hearts of people (ala Doc's post), the state of spiritual warfare, and other factors we know nothing about. But given Doc's point, an open theist would have to argue that this "many" includes some who are "ripe" but who, given libertarian freedom, will in the end choose NOT to believe, and some who are on the resistant end of things, given libertarian freedom, will end up choosing TO believe.
quote:
With Sanders, I would hold that the Lord opens hearts to allow them to receive the Gospel. Indeed, he opens the hearts of all who will allow their heart to be opened.
Exactly my friend's point. If God opens the hearts of people to allow them to receive the gospel, and this happens for people who "allow their heart to be opened," then how did God know for "certain" in Corinth than "many" would "allows their hearts to be opened." How did God knows these libertarian choices for certain in advance?
quote:
The Lord knew that many people had opened hearts to receive Paul's message. They were "ripe." They had been made sheeps who would now "hear his voice" and "come to the Father" (Jn 10). They had been set aside an ordained for eternal life (Acts 13:48).
Have you had your coffee this morning Doc? This still appears to me to fly in the face of open theism's insistance that God cannot know libertarian free choices in advance. He may "expect" many to come to faith (the flip side of Jer. 3.7-9), but libertarian free will means he could be disappointed.
Since I'm not an inclusivist, I'd like to look for something a little simpler. Like insurance agencies who know for certain that 18% of the 3 million teenage drivers will be in an accidence this year without knowing which ones will be involved in accidencts, God can know that "many" will yet believe in Corinth without being absolutely certain who. Given his knowledge of the state of preparedness of each person, I don't doubt that he has a very good idea of who that will be also. But on the specifics, God COULD be disappointed.
Tom
Doc, take a peek at the "Land of Uz" thread. Does my last post solve the problems of the ages?
"No one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman
Edited by - TGB on 11/15/2002 12:02:33 AM | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:35 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|