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Jim
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 20
| Posted 1/15/2003 7:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello,
I happened on your web page:
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=482
On this page, you wrote this:
“We may thus conclude that just as God loved the nation of Israel ahead of time, so God loved the Church ahead of time. He predestined this group of people “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” Note that what is loved ahead of time in both Romans 8:29 and 11:2 is a corporate body, not particular individuals.”
The following may have already been bought to your attention, but Paul says, “ous proegnw [whom he before knew],” in Romans 8:29, whereas he says, “on proegnw [which he before knew],” in Romans 11:2. In Romans 8:29, “ous” is accusative plural masculine, whereas in Romans 11:2, “on” is accusative singular masculine. Thus, it appears that Paul was referring to multiple individuals in Romans 8:29 but to a single group of people in Romans 11:2.
Sincerely,
Jim
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/16/2003 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | But it seems clear that Rom. 11 (including verse 2) is talking specifically about a group (i.e., Isreal). And, although I don't know Greek, all of the versions on the Bible Gateway website translate the subject of foreknowledge as "his people". Sounds corporate to me.
New International Version (NIV)
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Amplified Bible (AMP)
No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
New Living Translation (NLT)
No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
King James Version (KJV)
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
English Standard Version (ESV)
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel?
New King James Version (NKJV)
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Know ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah, how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
American Standard Version (ASV)
God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
God has not left his people whom he knew from the first. Do you not know what the holy writings say about the prophet Elijah? He talked to God against the people of Israel.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
God did not cast away His people whom He knew before; have ye not known -- in Elijah -- what the Writing saith? how he doth plead with God concerning Israel, saying,
Darby Translation (DARBY)
God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture says in [the history of] Elias, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
God hath not put away his people, which he before-knew. Whether ye know not [Whether ye witen not], what the scripture saith in Elias? How he prayeth God against Israel,
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/16/2003 3:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I think I mis-read your post, Jim. After re-reading it, I think we both agree that Rom. 11:2 refers to "a single group of people". Do you think both verses suggest corporate election/foreknowledge? Or are you saying Rom. 8:29 does not because it refers to individuals (albeit multiple individuals)?
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/16/2003 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | JET-
Eh, I need you to add two more versions to your list please. 
Tom
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Jim
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 20
| Posted 1/16/2003 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Jet,
Jet:
Do you think both verses suggest corporate election/foreknowledge? Or are you saying Rom. 8:29 does not because it refers to individuals (albeit multiple individuals)?
Jim:
I understand what you’re saying – many members yet one body. However, since it is so easy to impose a corporate interpretation on plural language, I think that we should require clear signals that Paul is speaking corporately before we assume that interpretation. In my opinion, if Paul is expressing what he is saying in the plural, then we should assume that he is speaking in terms of the individual unless he hits us over the head with clear signals that he is speaking corporately.
Paul’s language in Romans 8 indicates to me that he is speaking in terms of the individual, not corporately. For instance, in 8:4, Paul says that the Spirit fulfills the ordinance of the law in those who walk after the Spirit. I don’t think that Paul is speaking corporately here but in terms of the individual. In Galatians 5:16, Paul says that the way for each individual to avoid fulfilling the lust of the flesh is to walk by the Spirit, thus fulfilling the law, as described in verse 5:14.
In Romans 8:26, Paul says that we don’t know how we should pray, so the Spirit, who is in our hearts (compare Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:5-6), makes intercession for us. I think that Paul is speaking in terms of the individual here. Likewise, in verse 8:27, where Paul says that He who searches the hearts (plural) knows the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to God, I think that Paul is describing the attention of the Spirit to the individual. I’m unclear on who’s who in this verse, as both the Spirit (8:26) and the Son (8:34) make intercession for the saints.
In verse 8:28, Paul goes on to say that all things work for good to those who are called. The identity of those who are called is established in verse 9:24; they are the vessels of mercy, whom God before ordained to glory, even us, whom God called both out of the Jews and out of the Gentiles. Although the called comprise one body, they are nevertheless individually called. Paul includes himself in “us,” the called, who are before ordained to glory, in verse 9:24; and in verse 1:1, he says that he was individually called to be an apostle. In verse 1:6-7, he says that the believers at Rome were also called to be Christ’s, to be saints. So I see Paul speaking in terms of the individual in Romans 8:26-28.
In my opinion, what Paul goes on to say in 8:29-30 is in context with what he says in 8:26-28. These individuals who are called were before known by God, who before ordained them to be conformed to Christ so that He would be the firstborn among “many brethren” (plural). Again, this indicates to me that Paul is speaking in terms of the individual, not corporately. Then, in verse 8:30, Paul goes on to describe the progression from being before ordained to being called to being justified to being glorified. Whereas all individual members of the one body may have been before ordained at the same time, and whereas they will all be glorified at the same time, I don’t think that they are all called and justified at the same time, as the individual members of the body are inducted into the body at different times. So, again, I think that Paul speaking in terms of the individual, not corporately.
Anyway, that’s how I see it.
Sincerely,
Jim
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/16/2003 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | I think its hard to distinguish between "multiple individuals" and a single group of people. One could simply say that the multple individuals are the single group of people and visa versa. And considering that God was using in these passages the nation of Israel and comparing it to the church it would seem to me that God is comparing to groups of people and his dealings with them and not individuals.
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