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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 10/27/2002 2:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Has anyone read this book? Supposedly, one Mary K Baxter was given visions of hell and then some with Jesus as her guide. This is not meant to be fictional but an actual revelation.
Two things revealled to her that stuck out in my mind of relevence to the open view had to do with visions of the future. She paints a picture in which a tribulation will come but the timing of it is contingent. She said around the earth a huge angelic/demonic battle was being waged and when Christians united in prayer and worship, the angels would be succesful, but when this isn't the case, the demons gain ground in the battle. I think, from what I remember of reading it, the tribulation will come when the demons win the battle, or something like that. I might be mistaken about that though.
also, the battle has effects such that when the demons are succesful, it is felt on the earth (with stuff like the break up of families or other sorts of tragedies)
It fits the warfare world view as described by Boyd rather well.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 10/27/2002 7:52:09 PM
Edited by - geebob on 10/27/2002 7:52:58 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/27/2002 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | | Who is this person? And what is their reputation? And who vouches for them? | | Back to Top | | |
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brandi
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 118
| Posted 10/27/2002 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
She said around the earth a huge angelic/demonic battle was being waged and when Christians united in prayer and worship, the angels would be succesful, but when this isn't the case, the demons gain ground in the battle.
Geebob,I believe it. Praise God that the "The battle belongs to the Lord." When we unite in prayer we open up heavens flood gates. There is such unity and strength in the body of Christ coming together!!!
Welcome to the board, Fred! 
~Brandi~
Edited by - brandi on 10/28/2002 12:24:42 AM
Edited by - brandi on 10/28/2002 02:58:51 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/28/2002 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | I've seen Baxter's book, but never read it. Open theists or not, I would never wager any credibility on visions a person has... especially when they involve such esoteric and questionable things as "the tribulation period" etc...
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/29/2002 2:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I was given the book by a friend who wanted my opinion as to whether I thought it was true or not. I told her I didn't believe it. The author has Christ walking through hell, past people who are repenting of their sins and crying out for salvation, and he says, in effect, nope, too late. Why does God suddenly tell this woman how the tribulation is going to work out, when everyone else has been in the dark for two thousand years?
The theology is simplistic, the book is sensationalist, it reads like something a highly emotional 70's mystic wrote after a bad dream.
-S
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 10/29/2002 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs says:quote:
... it reads like something a highly emotional 70's mystic wrote after a bad dream.
Hey, you have a problem with 70's mystics??? I resemble that remark!
peace and love, don ( the ponytail is coming along nicely )
"It's time to wipe the tears from our eyes time to stop questioning why, 'cos every clipped birds gonna fly the Healing has begun" T.S Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 10/29/2002 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I'd like to reiterate that it's been a while since I read this book. I'd recommend that anyone read this as it is interesting, thought provoking, and a quick read.
quote:
from fred
Who is this person? And what is their reputation? And who vouches for them?
couldn't tell you. I think the book could be judged on it's content apart from this information. but certainly that is important.
quote:
from greg boyd
Open theists or not,
it wouldn't surprise me if she isn't. but some of what she said seems to me to be best interpreted by an open view as she presents the future as contingent on something that we do. I'm sure it's quite possible that if you asked her, she might say something like "of but God knows how it'll turn out." Recieving visions of God isn't going to gaurantee that one always thinks thoroughly rationally.
quote:
especially when they involve such esoteric and questionable things as "the tribulation period" etc
I don't even know if she uses that term. that's my term describing the picture she gave as it seemed to cohere somewhat with some futurist interpretations of revelations.
Also, I'd be cautious about using certain debatable theological views as a litmus test for the validity of a vision. I'm more interested in whether the Jesus she presents is the same Jesus in the bible (testing the spirits). Last I looked at it, I thought that came through fairly clearly. I would've like to have had some quotes, but after attempting to dig it up as I wrote this, I couldn't find it.
I gave the book to a calvinist a few years ago and he said that the book was junk as it portrayed Jesus weeping over the damned. He told me that God isn't some (whatever calvinists say to make fun of a weeping God, it's been a while). then he told me about how God was glorified by the suffering in hell and that Satan isn't the one who torments people in hell but God is. needless to say, he assisted me in my vehement opposition towards calvinism and reprobation. (but of course I would've rejected it out of hand if it presented God as one who reprobates).
also, suppose some sort of preterist view of revelations is correct, that doesn't mean that her account is wrong. keep in mind, many of the prophecies of Jesus were already fulfilled and as you may have heard (as an open theist, thouigh you may not hold this...sanders does I believe) some of the prophecies applied to Jesus didn't have to be applied to him and might not have been applied to him if things didn't turn out that way.
quote:
from springs
I was given the book by a friend who wanted my opinion as to whether I thought it was true or not. I told her I didn't believe it. The author has Christ walking through hell, past people who are repenting of their sins and crying out for salvation, and he says, in effect, nope, too late.
this wouldn't conflict with the parable Jesus gave us with Lazarus. Why wouldn't people confess their sins in hell if Jesus walked by? I've heard preachers say that in hell, you will always remember the times that you had a chance to accpet the Gospel. Do you think that Jesus should forgive them? that is understandable but the permanence of hell, though it may be reasonably debated with the material that we have, is a fairly orthodox view.
perhaps you could object saying that they were being given a false hope, but that could be answered with the fact that Jesus was there for other purposes. Remember, he was interviewing those people so that Baxter could write down why they were in hell. Those interviews by the way were pretty interesting for anyone else who might be interested in the book.
quote:
Why does God suddenly tell this woman how the tribulation is going to work out, when everyone else has been in the dark for two thousand years?
He doesn't. the information on the end times (yes we have arguably been in the end times since Jesus' day. Please forgive the terminology) is not very comprehensive in that book. It is mostly about the horrors of hell and why it is to be avoided.
And so what if he gives her information that hasn't been privy to us up until now. we've been pretty much in the dark about the open view (at least the part on foreknowledge) up till now with very few exceptions in history. Most visions from God would contain something new anyway.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 10/29/2002 11:36:57 AM
Edited by - geebob on 10/29/2002 11:41:49 AM
Edited by - geebob on 10/29/2002 11:44:08 AM
Edited by - geebob on 10/29/2002 11:58:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/29/2002 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And so what if he gives her information that hasn't been privy to us up until now
Yikes! | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 10/29/2002 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yikes!
of course this is no small deal. We should turn a critical eye towards such alleged new revelations. But the notion that no-one knew certain details until this present day therefore it's dubious is almost as simpleminded as the as blind acceptance of every self proclamed prophet who comes along.
lets assess these things on biblical grounds according to the biblical tests that God gave us.
does it cohere with scripture? who did the spirit (who claimed to be Jesus) say that Jesus was?
and one thing on cohering with scripture, is it the understanding of scripture rational and coherent. I've been reading a couple of critiques of Baxter's book today and though they raise a couple of important issues, overall, they were very simplistic and subjective.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 10/29/2002 1:51:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/29/2002 2:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Geebob,
Glad to see you are hanging in there. You are right there are better criticisms.
Don,
That was so funny! I resemble that too. But at least if I had a dream like that I'd admit I was trippin'! 
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/29/2002 3:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Geebob,
I hold to the warfare worldview so I do believe that the battles waged in the heavenlies have an effect here on earth. That is scriptural. But the part about that battle determining when the tribulation comes... I don't think so.
Let's start out with Lazarus. You say if Jesus walked by people in hell and they were repenting and crying for mercy this would not contradict the Lazarus tale. I disagree. So I'll start there.
Luke 16:19 - 31.
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was lad a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell form the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but not he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them. No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.
He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convince even if someone rises from the dead.”
-What I notice is that the rich man in hell, is not repenting. Far from it. If we think he is there because he made the flesh his god, and lived his life to self, enthroned, with his goal being the satiation of the all his desires, then I would have to say it appears his torment hasn’t changed him. Because he is not repenting and asking for salvation, he is asking for water. Once again, and still, wanting relief and satisfaction for the flesh.
I also think this story makes it clear that there will be no communication from the dead. Apparently God believes the testimony of Christ is enough. Why after all this time has God changed his mind and decided that a testimony from a tour of hell will save souls after all?
Remember that verse where some people that die say Lord, Lord, and he says, I never knew you? Well, again, in that passage, unlike a Christian who upon coming face to face with their God cries out, I am a person of unclean lips, or Lord have mercy on me, or even Glory, Glory, Oh MY!!! GLORY TO GOD!!!! They instead say, Look what WE have done. WE have cast out demons. WE have done this and that for you. They are still living in pride and self sufficiency.
Some people think that God sends people to hell. I tend to side with CS Lewis who says that the gates of hell are locked from the inside. They are there because they reject God and his ways. God’s love hits them like a burning wrath.
There is another verse, (no reference at this time, sorry I’m tired) that says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don’t think that is because they have decided to love God and are upset he is sending them off to hell against their will. Rather I think it is because they believed that all of creation was their to enjoy, and finding out that it all belongs to God and that to continue to exist in it, means that they not only acknowledge his Lordship, but love him, causes them great rage and anguish.
Okay enough for now, I will try to get to some of your other points later.
Blessings,
Springs
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