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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/22/2003 3:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | I found these concordance verses used by a girl who I think is a calvinist:
G1586 - chosen
eklegomai
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.
1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one’s self
1a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
1b) choosing one for an office
1c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
1c1) i.e. the Israelites
1d) of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (Jam_2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only
G3004
lego
A primary verb; properly to “lay” forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
1) to say, to speak
1a) affirm over, maintain
1b) to teach
1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct
1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
1e) to call by name, to call, name
1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
G4309 - predestinated
proorizo¯
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
G3724
horizo¯
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.
1) to define
1a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)
1b1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
1b2) to ordain, determine, appoint
G2307 - will
thele¯ma
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.
Thayer Definition:
1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
1a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
1b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1b1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Does anyone have an opinion about these? How, when seeing what the words mean in a concordanc and still showing a Calvinist interpretation, do we still view open theism to have a grasp on the theology?
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 1/23/2003 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Interesting that no one has replied to you...Here's some more:
"Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." Mark 14:30
"You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result." Gen. 50:20
According to Wm . Craig, Joseph's brothers' crime could not have been caused by God, since it was evil and God is not evil. Yet, "God sovereignly directed events toward his previsioned end." Craig says that open theology cannot explain this.
He goes on to say that there is a Molinist alternative- I don't understand what the problem is with that view.
"I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of
doubt. I shouldn't wish people dogmatically to believe any philosophy, not
even mine."
Bertrand Russell | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/23/2003 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | The Arminian view (which I think would be no different from the Open view on this point of predestination and election) is class election/predestination.
This view of election is logically consistent with election in the Old Testament as well; Israel as a nation was elected, though all the individuals who were born to natural Israel were not necessarily faithful to the covenant, and thus forfeited their election. In precisely the same way, now God has chosen the Church (made up of all nations, no longer just Israel), and all who submit to the conditions of membership in the Body of Christ/the Church are in fact predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. (Predestination biblically speaking has to do with character formation, not directly heaven/hell). Election has to do with God's choice to include the Gentiles in his covenant (see Rom. 9-11).
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Edited by - John Earp on 01/24/2003 12:57:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/23/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | | "Interesting that no one has replied to you...:" why? Silence does not make an answer right, anymore than answering it makes it wrong. Sometimes people don't answer simply because they are too busy...which isn't interesting at all...
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/23/2003 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | "The New Chosen People" by William Klein and "Elect In The Son" by Robert Shank are good books to read on class election.
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/23/2003 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | RD: I bbelieve Doctor Boyd has answered the Mark verse elsewhere (also in his books) and Sanders addresses the issue of Joseph from an open point of view in "The God Who Risks," if you are interested.
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/23/2003 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Honorman! Thank you!
I have read Greg Boyd's work, maybe it is just a matter of me going back over the text and finding out where he tackles these arguments. Thanks for the reminder.
Peace,
Paul
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/24/2003 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | In this debate there are so many verses to go over, ponder, I have had several time when I have been asked about a verse, not realizing that I had just read about it. Sometimes my brain hurts...
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