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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Prophetic Utterances and Open Theism | Forum Quick Jump
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Robert Furney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 3/10/2002 6:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | As open theists we know there are three ways in which God prophecies.
1. By those things he intends to bring about that are not based upon direct human involvement (Genesis 41:25,28,32).
2. By those things which are conditional (Jonah 3:4).
3. Finally, by those things which are based upon present knowledge. That is, on God's knowledge of the past and present (Deuteronomy 31:16,21).
I find the third way the most interesting and have dialogued with determinists over it, who simply interpret the Deuteronomy passage away as literally meaningless. In this verse God's prediction that the Jews will again rebel is based upon his history with them for the past 40 years and his knowledge of their disposition: "I know what they are inclined to do even now." This is a most powerful and confronting verse against critics of open theism.
What other verses would qualify under this third category?
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/10/2002 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | | RB: ...determinists....who simply interpret the Deuteronomy passage away as literally meaningless.
Doc: While I of course agree with your interpretation Robert, I don't see that the determinist interpretation renders it meaningless. The verses don't say that God's present knowledge is based on his past experience with them.
As to other texts which specifically suggest God's ability to predict the future based his perfectly knowledge of the present, I don't know of any. A verse would have to say something like "I know what you shall do, for I have dealt with you/ seen you/ experience you etc... in the past. I don't know any verse that does this. The category is rather based on an inference from the assumption that a) God has perfect knowledge; b) the future is partly open, and c) sometimes God predicts things that seem to include free actions. To reconcile b) and c), we appeal to a).
Am I wrong?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Robert Furney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 3/11/2002 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually, Doc, I believe God's past 40 years experience with the Jews and their constant complaining, testing, and rejection is definitely implied by the Deuteronomy passage. Their inclination, or disposition, or whatever you may want to call it, is a result of this history. They have become "predictable" in a sense because they have made themselves that way. As time went on, we read that they were in keeping with this disposition, as God predicted. However, it is also true that it is not a guarantee that they had to rebel again.
As to the Calvinist interpretation of this passage, what I meant is that that their interpretation of it is not consistent with a literal, natural reading of the verses. Therefore, that is why I said "literally meaningless."
By the way, my preliminary studies of Jewish thought and Open Theism has shown me that some Jews are classical Arminian concerning God's Foreknowledge. So far, I haven't seen anything to the contrary, but my research has just begun. I will keep you posted what I come up with.
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Hilston
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 3/11/2002 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Perhaps these references will help. The Strong's Index Number is included in each verse, showing the usage of "yetser" (#03336). Note that this Hebrew word derives from "potter" (yatsar #03335).
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination <03336> of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination <03336> of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
De 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination <03336> which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations <03336> of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1Ch 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination <03336> of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
Ps 103:14 For he knoweth our frame <03336>; he remembereth that we are dust.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind <03336> is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed <03336> say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Hab 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work <03336> trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
Note that the "imagination" of man's heart is evil from youth (Gen 8;21) and that the prayer in 1Ch 29:18 asks God to prepare the heart. Is it proper for an Open Theist to ask God to manipulate a person's heart?
Sayonara,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
http://www.icubed.com/~hilston
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Robert Furney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 3/11/2002 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilston, is there any difference between your last question and believers expecting God to help sanctify them through the transforming of the mind? I don't see any conflict or contradiction here. I ask and expect God to help me through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit to make me more like Jesus as time goes on. That doesn't do away with freewill. God isn't going to change you for the better if you do not want him to or if you resist him.
The passages you have given do not really answer my question for more verses that are similar to the Deuteronomy one. However, they do show that God is fully acquainted, fully aware, and fully knowledgable about our hearts. In the specific context, God knows the hearts of the Jews and knew of their inclination to rebel again. He had a lot of experience with them during the prior 40 years wandering around the desert, an experience that showed him they were generally a rebellious people. Recall how many times God said he wanted to test them to know whether they would obey him or not.
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/15/2002 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | I eagerly anticipate your research Robert.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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