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MrIndifference
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   Posted 3/14/2002 8:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Matthew 27.19
While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.”
According to this passage God gave Pilates wife a warning of what was about to happen. By doing this He increased the possibility that Pilate would actually release Jesus instead of letting Him be crucified.

Also, after Judas' little meeting with Ciaphas, at the Passover celebration, Jesus made the statement that one of the twelve would end up betraying Him. By doing this, Jesus was playing the part of convictor. This increased the possibility that Judas would think about what he was about to do, and actually change his mind about betraying Jesus.

Why would God unneedingly increase the risk that his plans would be thwarted? The method of Christs death had been spacifically layed out through the prophecies in the OT. Could all of those prophecies been overturned because of this, or was this one of those cases where Judas and Pilates actions were locked in with no option of choosing otherwise?

Any insight?

MrI. :|
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Seymour
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   Posted 3/14/2002 8:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

This is one of the all time coolest questions I've ever incountered. Very creative. I'll have to think about this one for a while.


"When Zarathustra had spoken these words he beheld the people again and was silent. 'There they stand,' he said to his heart; 'there they laugh. They do not understand me; I am not the mouth for these ears."

Edited by - Seymour on 03/15/2002 01:56:29 AM
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 3/15/2002 5:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Never noticed this before. Nice one.

But I can easily conceive of God giving the dream for reasons other than to try to stop the crucifixion. I mean, didn't Pilot in a sense listen to his wife and turn the conviction back on "the people"? Undoubtedly God knew the resolved hearts of the people and, perhaps, he wanted to symbolize that it wasn't just a fickle governor who got Christ crucified, but the sin of the world. Perhaps.

Then again, it doesn't say GOD gave Pilots wife the dream. Perhaps she was just very intuitive.

On the Judas question, even if he had had a change of heart, the betrayal was already done.

(POW, doesn't the eastern orthodox church have a different take on Judas? Don't they tend to see Judas as a misguided saint who DID repent?)

Doc



"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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trosie
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   Posted 3/15/2002 6:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mr.Indifference said:
quote:
Jesus made the statement that one of the twelve would end up betraying Him. By doing this, Jesus was playing the part of convictor. This increased the possibility that Judas would think about what he was about to do, and actually change his mind about betraying Jesus.


Jesus does the same thing with Peter's denying him too.


Doc said:
quote:
(POW, doesn't the eastern orthodox church have a different take on Judas? Don't they tend to see Judas as a misguided saint who DID repent?)


This might sound bizarre but it is SO refreshing when I realize that other Christians believe what I believe. Ever since I was a young girl and heard about the story and saw movies about the life and death of Christ I have always had a little compassion toward Judas. I mean he did this horrible act of betraying Christ but then realized what he had done and felt so horrible inside to the point of hanging himself. If we are to say sin is sin then how much different is what Judas did than what Peter did by denying Jesus three times? They both betrayed Christ in some respect and the both felt mournful afterward.

Anyway, I am interested to know if indeed the Eastern Orthodox church believes that Judas was a misguided saint who did repent? This is what I have always believed way DEEP down inside.

Thanks,
trosie











Edited by - trosie on 03/15/2002 11:06:18 AM
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MrIndifference
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   Posted 3/15/2002 8:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When it comes to Pilot and Judas, they both chose their own destiny and they will have to live with those choices, even into the next life. I tend to have compassion for both of them. In some strange sense, they were both pawns that had their role to play. It may be a gut feeling, but I don't think we have seen the last of either of them. Going back to my origional question, it seems to me that God was saying that their two destinies were not locked in, but instead they did still have control over their own actions. Also, you could look at it from the perspective of being like Jesus in the respect that they each had a spacific role that they had to play in order for everything to happen as planned. If God felt the need to lock in their destinies for that brief moment, then to be fair He could have used these incidences to also help lock in their salvation.

Hmmm...
I am not sure about the last part of that (See Italics)...

MrI. :|

Edited by - mrindifference on 03/15/2002 2:14:03 PM
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 3/15/2002 6:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you check out many of the quotes NT authors use to say Jesus "fulfilled" something, you find that MOST of them are not predictions. Many scholars argue that the meaning of "fulfilled" in these passages was not that a certain event HAD to happen (e.g. giving Jesus vinegar, casting lots for his clothes, his being betrayed, etc.). Rather, they meant only that Jesus' life ILLUSTRATES in a superlative way the point of the passage being quoted. (For example, if you look at Psl 69, David said his enemies "gave me poison for food and vinegar for water." When the guard gives Jesus vinegar, John says this was done "to fulfill what was written: 'they gave me vinegar for water." You've gotta wonder, however, how can the second half of a sentence "predict" something, but not the first half?. Jesus was never given poison for food.)

The point is, I bet the details of Jesus' life weren't nearly as "locked in" as we might assume if we interpret all the "fulfillments" as required predictions.

Blessings

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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MrIndifference
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   Posted 3/15/2002 8:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I never really thought of it like that. If you think about it. If pilate would have decided not to crucify Christ at that time, the case probably would have gone to Caeser anyway. Jesus probably would have still been crucified. Possably even on the Passover, but only a year later.

How I would love to see Gods copy of "Pick Your Own Adventure - Good Times on Planet Earth".

MrI. :|
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Newcomb
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   Posted 3/28/2002 5:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great question! As I read it I had a series of things to respond with, but the Dr arrives first with the same (he's got too much free time:-)
I do think the verse about Pilates wife is descriptive of what happened, not a claim from God, i.e. God didn't say he gave the dream, she said she had a dream and it was recorded here.
Let’s not forget another possibility though, could not Satan have given the dream to thwart God’s plan. If we use the analogy of a chess game, when Satan started to see God’s game plan unfold (remember it was a mystery at that time for good reason) might Satan be trying to stop it? The western church tells stories of Satan waiting under the ladder at the cross waiting for the soul of Christ to fall (thus the superstition about walking under ladders being bad luck because Satan is still waiting there), but he is not so dumb as to not see a plan as it plays out, he is aware of the game too. Perhaps he was trying to stop it at this point.
As for Jesus’ statements, he didn’t seem to have any animosity toward Judas, he knew the plan (didn’t like it) but knew they had to go forward at this point. Perhaps he was encouraging Judas to continue with his plan because Satan was trying to stop it by then.
I think we are ignoring the larger game on the spiritual level.
RE: Judas, I agree with Trosie, I have always thought he was misunderstood. While he may have just been playing the margins, trying to earn some $ I do not believe he understood the outcome. Think about it, Jesus had escaped numerous times when people would have killed him, he preformed miracles, I think Judas was playing the margins and lost. What was his final response?, adulation that he had accomplished what he had set out to do? No, he became so despondent that he returned the money and hanged himself over the outcome. It seems obvious that he didn't like the outcome.
Both God and Satan have plans that change and adapt to different situations as all the free will persons interplay with the game over time from eternity (infinite-time-past) to eternity (infinite-time-future). The game continues. . .

"Neuk'em"
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/28/2002 5:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
(POW, doesn't the eastern orthodox church have a different take on Judas? Don't they tend to see Judas as a misguided saint who DID repent?)
Doc

I don't know. The INTERNET thinks so.but I'm not always trusting of what I find there.

As to Pilate, I can easily sense in myself the old Gnostic influences that say that nothing physical really matters--its all spiritual. But I also know that that is not true. (The Reformed say it; and the Orthodox practice it. "It" being the wholism of spiritual and physical.) Pilate was "the government of the earth" if MY guess is correct! (Apollinarians and Arians liked that, though. They featured in their art Christ before Pilate as "IT." The "man" of God's favor unjustly condemned -- EARNING God's Love for us. ) But dispite what has been done badly, I think that the level of involvement which Pilate had makes a really, really big impression on THIS Swede!

Thanks for asking.

Back to Judas...... Issac the Syrian, you will remember from last Summer's posts, speculated that even the demons will eventually be saved. There is lots of Universalisms out there.

But as to specifics, I don't know.

Judas is used in the Divine (Eucharistic) Liturgy this way:

quote:
:
Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.
Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto healing of soul and body.


John Timmer (CRC Pubs.) in his Four Dimensional Jesus points out that in one of the Gospels The Eucharist takes place BETWEEN (different orders for different gospels...depending on the point needing making) the "selling" for 30 pieces and the Kiss of betrayal. For effect, Timmer says.

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ScottEmerson
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   Posted 3/28/2002 7:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, guys - I've been gone awhile...finishing up my move. I start my Ph.D. program at UF in the fall so I'm getting ready for that... (Marriage and Family Counseling...)

Anyway, I believe there's a passage in Matthew where Christ says that the disciples will be at the head of the twelve tribes of Israel. To me, that shows that Judas did repent. If he were to die before Christ, then he would go to Paradise, where Christ preacehd during the three days. Makes sense to me. What do you all think about that???

SEC

SEC

------------------------
Nobody teaches a plant to grow. If I water and care for her, she grows on her own. - F. Perls
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atomnext
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   Posted 4/10/2002 5:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It seems to me that the whole issue with Judas would be detrimental to the open view.

I didnt see this issue answerd in your question and answer question.

Was Judas' destiny chosen before hand?

(you know what the question is, im sure)


atomnext.

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Starkman
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   Posted 4/11/2002 2:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, there is the statement of Jesus about Judas (can't remember where it is)...

Paraphrase: The Son of Man goes as was predicted, but woe to him who causes such (I REALLY should look this up, you know!)

Anyway, that would seem to be one argument that Judas was beyond repentance.

For the lack of remembering where that Scripture is...

Starkman

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MrIndifference
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   Posted 4/11/2002 8:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Stark...
I think you were looking for Matthew 26.24:
quote:
The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
When I read this, I don't necessarily see this as being a statement of condemnation. I think He sees what mental turmoil and demonic attack that Judas would go through because of the betrayal. Also would you want it on your conscience having betrayed the Son of God and being directly responsible for Christs death. Looking at it this way, it would have been better had he not been born.

I believe that there was still a chance for Judas.

MrI. :|
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chambes
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   Posted 4/12/2002 2:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not going to claim to have any original insight into this subject, but George MacDonald has an interesting take on it. For those who don't know, George MacDonald is a 19th century writer whose works were the catalyst in turning C.S. Lewis to God.

In his book Unspoken Sermons, he says:

quote:

But must we believe that Judas, who repented even to agony, who repented so that his highest prized life, self, soul, became worthless in his eyes and met with no mercy at his own hand, - must we believe that he could find no mercy in such a God? I think, when Judas fled from his hanged and fallen body, he fled to the tender help of Jesus, and found it – I say not how. He was in a more hopeful condition now than during any moment of his past life, for he had never repented before. But I believe that Jesus loved Judas even when he was kissing him with the traitor’s kiss; and I believe that he was his Savior still. And if any man remind me of his words, “It had been good for that man if he had not been born,” I had not forgotten them, though I know that I now offer nothing beyond a conjectural explanation of them when I say: Judas had got none of the good of the world into which he had been born. He had not inherited the earth. He had lived and evil life, out of harmony with the world and its God. Its love had been lost upon him. He had been brought to the very Son of God, and lived with him as his own familiar friend; and he had not loved him more, but less than himself. Therefore it had all been useless. “It had been good for that man if he had not been born;”…But I will not, cannot believe, O my Lord, that thou wouldst not forgive thy enemy, even when he repented, and did thee right. Nor will I believe that thy holy death was powerless to save thy foe – that it could not reach to Judas.



I personally would prefer to believe that Judas was saved, not because I think he had a great repentance, but because I believe that Christ’s death had the power to forgive and redeem anyone, even Judas.

chambes


"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot
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MrIndifference
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   Posted 4/12/2002 8:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Amen...

MrI. :|
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