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chambes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 5/1/2002 11:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Life must be very frightening for you, and if it isn't, no logic or faith you present to me would make me believe you know what you're saying.
So, if God cannot be thwarted, then everything that happens must be within His will, correct? So, are you saying the nine-year old girl being raped by a missionary that Doc reffered to earlier in this thread was in God's will?
The fact is that evil things happen. I feel much safer believing in a God that is fighting against them, but not always winning because of free will, than believing in a God that can stop them, but doesn't. I get absolutely no comfort from God being able to stop evil, but not doing so, or worse yet, causing it.
chambes
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/1/2002 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We're finalizing corrections for the Arabic NT the next few days! Then we're done! The entire Bible in Arabic for Muslims.
Praise God! Tom, I'm grateful that God set (ordained!?) you to be part of that task.
R.J.
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 5/1/2002 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | All said:
quote:
Life must be very frightening for you, and if it isn't, no logic or faith you present to me would make me believe you know what you're saying.
Heh. Life is not frightening to me (any more than it should be to a human being who has a cognitively healthy awareness of the fragility of life and inevitability of death). And I do know what exactly I'm saying. Check out some of my posts. Including Contemplations on my "Theistic" Existence Would someone care to school this cat on my thinking processes? 
PS: Just messin' with you, Allryled. Mad love.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 5/1/2002 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, this too...
Modes has said this in essence before...
One of these is the case: Either God CANNOT do more or God WILL NOT do more. Neither response leaves us really satified. Actually both answers kinda suck. With either choice, there is a real chance that we will face hardship, suffering, and pain that may NEVER be fixed and that will remain incomprehensible in our lifetimes. So pick your poison.
Personally, I couldn't care less which is the case, for a number of reasons. But, this is the bottom line, ladies and gents.
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 5/1/2002 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi:
You CANNOT trust that even God-given advice will lead to things working out as planned. (Ask Doc about the missionary marriage he talks about in God of the Possible).
Iconoclast:
You CAN trust that it is the best advice you are going to get. 
thanks,
Iconoclast
These two things are true of every living center:
1. Each center gets its life, always, from the fact that it is helping to support and enliven some larger center.
2. The center becomes precious because of it.
Christopher Alexander
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 5/1/2002 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilston:
Excellent point! It appears your question suffices to tell us alot about your worldview. Apparently, you do NOT trust God to keep you from falling away -- am I right? You must trust yourself to be saved. Is this correct? If not, please elaborate so I can better understand your position. In either case, may I ask, precisely what do you trust God for on your worldview?
Iconoclast:
Hope you don't mind if I answer this.
I absolutely trust God to keep me from falling away as long as I continue to accept his salvation. I trust God to do what is in my best interest - even though sometimes it doesn't feel like it.
thanks,
Iconoclast
Edited by - Iconoclast on 05/01/2002 11:15:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 5/1/2002 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | What could it possibly mean to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?
Could it mean that even though God is trustworthy to save us if we accept His salvation that we cannot simply trust ourselves to accept His salvation without putting conditions on it? (And therefore of course not really accepting?)
thanks,
Iconoclast
These two things are true of every living center:
1. Each center gets its life, always, from the fact that it is helping to support and enliven some larger center.
2. The center becomes precious because of it.
Christopher Alexander
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/2/2002 1:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Are 'foreknowledge' and 'mechanical tinkering' with every last bit necessarily connected the way we all assume that they are?
Here is some historical commentary:
Nominalist Reformers, following Ockham, assume that God can only foreknow what He has foreordained. In Reformation thinking, the virtual reality that God wills, replacing ontological reality (being)...
Duns Scotus...came near to making foreordaining the basis for foreknowing (though he insisted that God is contemporaneous with every present moment in time); his followers took the step of making divine foreknowledge contingent on predestinating what was to happen...
If this blue-print idea has not always been around in Christian circles, does that suggest that there is lots of area between the OV and the pagan that can be explored and discussed?
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 05/02/2002 06:10:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/2/2002 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
One of these is the case: Either God CANNOT do more or God WILL NOT do more. Neither response leaves us really satified.
Hmmm... Why do I have infinitely more comfort in the statement that God WILL NOT do more? (I know why, but I'm curious as to why others would see the two options as equally frustrating)
Under HIS Grace,
R.J.
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/2/2002 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So, if God cannot be thwarted, then everything that happens must be within His will, correct? So, are you saying the nine-year old girl being raped by a missionary that Doc reffered to earlier in this thread was in God's will?
Is this something to grieve about and be angry over? Yes. Was God removed from this Christian to the extent that He did not know/see it coming and could have prevented the man from committing this heinous act? I ask you. Are you going to dare speculate that God was incapable of turning that man's heart from committing that act? Does that mean that the woman should be consoled by saying it was God's will for her to be raped? If someone did say that I'd be first in line to let them know my displeasure. But, is it helpful to console someone by looking at them with a state of wonder, and say that God just couldn't help? That's just as twisted to me. Sometimes we need to just grieve and pray and read and trust in God. That's why there are verses of comfort all over Scripture. It doesn't mean it's easy, and I would never try to push someone past such a traumatic experience by waving a hand and tell her to forget about it. Ultimately though, I do not question God's purpose in allowing or ordaining the actions of evil man. It's one of the mysteries that He has not revealed to us.
quote:
I get absolutely no comfort from God being able to stop evil, but not doing so, or worse yet, causing it.
You need to think in a manner other than God causing it. The Bible is scattered with instances that are horrific, and were ordained by God, resulting in destruction and death to humans. He had a purpose for those things. Could His children be enveloped into such decrees? Yes. As for the quote from Jeremiah that confused this woman, it can and should be understood to mean that God will protect her eternal soul. One thing I think you and I would agree with is there are no guarantees about what this mortal life will bring. It is so much more relevant to look with faith to the promises He has given, than to focus on this life of peril which is but a vapor. Although what is written occurred thousands of years ago, do not remove it from your reasoning. Think of it as yesterday, which Scripture points to a way that this temporary life should be seen. Then maybe the difficulty of believing that God has his hand in destruction and death won't seem so impossible.
Blessings in the name of King Jesus,
R.J.
Edited by - allryledup on 05/02/2002 11:10:10 AM
Edited by - allryledup on 05/02/2002 11:15:16 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chambes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 5/2/2002 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll be the first to say I don't completely understand God's actions in the O.T. There was a lot of destruction that He used for His purposes, but I don't think it is theologically safe to assume that those actions can be extrapolated to our individual post-Christ lives. What I do know is that Christ is the perfect representation of the Father. So, what did Christ's worldview appear to be?
quote:
Ultimately though, I do not question God's purpose in allowing or ordaining the actions of evil man. It's one of the mysteries that He has not revealed to us.
I don't remember Jesus ever coming upon a man or woman that has had evil done to them and saying it was God's will, or that God allowed it to happen, so he wouldn't heal them. He healed everyone. He came to destroy the works of the devil by healing people. The only time he didn't heal people is when he COULDN'T because of their amazing lack of faith.
Based on the life and actions of Jesus, and he is the visible image of the invisible God, I would say that God is actively fighting against all evil, but things like lack of faith prevent Him from being completely successful here and now.
quote:
It doesn't mean it's easy, and I would never try to push someone past such a traumatic experience by waving a hand and tell her to forget about it. Ultimately though, I do not question God's purpose in allowing or ordaining the actions of evil man. It's one of the mysteries that He has not revealed to us.
If Jesus thought like this, he would have gone to see Mary and Martha after Lazarus died, wept with them and comforted them, then gone home. But he didn't. He wept with them, then he raised Lazarus from the dead.
chambes
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/2/2002 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'll be the first to say I don't completely understand God's actions in the O.T
Do you believe in God's wrath? And if you do how much does sin affect His view of man?
quote:
I don't remember Jesus ever coming upon a man or woman that has had evil done to them and saying it was God's will, or that God allowed it to happen
Anyone who would say such things would be a fool.quote:
so he wouldn't heal them. He healed everyone. The only time he didn't heal people is when he COULDN'T because of their amazing lack of faith.
I'd like to see you talking to Jesus and commenting on how he couldn't do something.
quote:
but things like lack of faith prevent Him from being completely successful here and now.
I'm amazed. God spun creation into existence out of nothing, yet we can prevent him from doing something.
quote:
If Jesus thought like this, he would have gone to see Mary and Martha after Lazarus died, wept with them and comforted them, then gone home. But he didn't. He wept with them, then he raised Lazarus from the dead.
Read the whole story in John 11. Then tell me why Jesus delayed going to see Lazarus until he died. Explain to me verses 14-15.
R.J.
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 5/2/2002 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi quoting Modesquote:
Modes has said this in essence before...
One of these is the case: Either God CANNOT do more or God WILL NOT do more. Neither response leaves us really satified. Actually both answers kinda suck. With either choice, there is a real chance that we will face hardship, suffering, and pain that may NEVER be fixed and that will remain incomprehensible in our lifetimes. So pick your poison.
While I understand how one might philosophically come to the "God CANNOT" conclusion, I must respectfully suggest that the Bible really does not allow us that choice. Throughout the Bible, we are told to trust in God, because He is the God that CAN.
That said, the Bible clearly teaches that sometimes God WILL NOT. There are sometimes reasonable answers to the question, "Why will God NOT...", but often we do not know why. Why does God heal some and not others? Why does God miraculously intervene sometimes and not others? Similarly, God sometimes tolerates our questions, such as with Abraham questioning God about Sodom and Gomorah. Other times, God reminds us that we know less than a gnatt's brain's worth about God's motives, as in the case of Job. As the Lord reminded Doc, "I'm God, and you're not".
We are "rivetted in finitude", and God knows that whenever we set out to grasp Him, we will go wrong. That is why we are told to not make graven images of God -- and our philosophical and theological constructs can be "graven images" of God. Even our religious or spiritual experience of God is not complete. We only see dimly.
Yet, I am reminded of what Francis Schaeffer taught. He observed that while we cannot know exhaustively about God, we can truly know something. Again, as Doc reminds us, if we want to know what God is like, the best place to look is at Jesus.
Trusting God is an adventure, and the good news is that there will always be a happy ending for those who Love God, though we may even go through death on a cross to get there.
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
Edited by - winghead on 05/02/2002 11:50:10 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/3/2002 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Very well said Winghead!
Blessings in Christ,
R.J.
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/3/2002 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Good discussion folks.
But I'm wondering if the "can not" versus "will not" bit is a bit more complex than we're depiciting it thus far. Can there be "can nots" that are premised on "will nots"? For example, say God decides that he WILL give people free choice, we can say that he WILL NOT intervene to stop them from choosing evil, if they so choose. But coudl we not just as easily say that God CANNOT intervene to stop them from choosing evil, because he WILLED to create a world where people have free choice. If he intervened, it would simply not be true that he gave them free choice.
Blessings
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/3/2002 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | I totally know how busy Mephi is these days. I’m writing on the run myself. Hope my comments won’t be inadequate on account of this.
OK, about trusting God as an open theist…
First, I think we should trust God for what the Bible clearly says, or leads us to believe, we may trust him for. Doc’s comments on Rom. 8 zero in on the sort of assurance the Bible invites us to enjoy. Love is THE basis of interpersonal trust. God loves me, so I trust him. That’s it.
Secondly, I think something has gone awry in a relationship which seeks to catalogue in precisely defined terms “what I can trust you FOR” and “what I cannot trust you FOR.” I don’t want to deny absolutely that there are things we trust God for and things we don’t trust God for. What I want to avoid saying is that we must first accurately place all of life’s experiences into either one of these two categories before we can trust God at all.
Thirdly, there is no logical or biblical reason I can think of for insisting that unless God exhaustively determines the minutia of history we are left with no basis upon which to trust God. Trust by definition looks at PAST and PRESENT performance and concludes that these are reason enough to trust a person regarding the future. What God has DONE is why I trust him (or at least 90% of why I trust him!).
Fourthly, I simply don’t see that the doctrine of perseverance is able to grant those who hold it assurance that they will certainly persevere. Doc’s comments to James were right on. If one claims that:
a) the genuinely regenerate inevitably persevere,
b) this doctrine affords us great comfort and assurance of final perseverance, and
c) apostasy is proof that one was not genuinely regenerate,
…then it appears to me to be impossible for her to know that she is not in fact one of those who mistakenly believe themselves to be saved when in fact God has determined them for temporary assurance and final destruction. Whatever evidence she may offer that she is truly saved, whatever sense of security she claims to possess, whatever witness of the Spirit bangs away in her heart, these all may be, and indeed HAVE BEEN, offered most wholeheartedly by those who later proved themselves (ala Calvinism) not to have been genuine believers. So I think she must admit that the same may be true of her. So, I appreciate James’ sense of security, but there’s really no argument he can provide for proving that his assurance is not utterly mistaken (as he claims it was in the case of those who have apostatized) if he also wants to claim that all those who apostatize thereby prove the defective nature of their faith from the start.
When it comes to assurance of salvation I think the Bible leads us to conclude that such assurance belongs to one class of people, those who are in fact trusting Christ NOW (see John’s Gospel too).
Lastly, we all talked a long time ago about this and I think Doc (or somebody) made the comment that since free will is finite and tends over time to give way to compatibilistic free will, then it stands to reason that the believer over time becomes more solidified in her trust and commitment to Christ. The possibility of her apostatizing decreases over time.
Lastly lastly, nothing I’ve said should be taken to mean I am NOT trusting in God to keep me. I am. Peter said it well, “kept by faith through the power of God.” Both the divine and human are there. Both are required. Both reflect acts that cannot be performed by the other. Thus, staying the course is a work of synergy. I am trusting God to keep me means both “I am trusting GOD TO KEEP me” and “I AM TRUSTING God to keep me.” I trust but God keeps. To recognize that my trust is not something God unconditionally predetermines and irresistibly executes is not to say I keep myself. My “trusting” doesn’t take God out of the picture. Neither does his “keeping” take me out of the picture. So, James asks what may we trust God for with respect to the future. We may trust God to keep those who trust him. Those who trust are kept. Those who do not trust are not kept. But (lastly, lastly, lastly) remember, if you also want to insist that those who once trusted and now do not prove that they never truly trusted, then you can’t really claim to know certainly that you're trusting God now. The assurance that comes from present trust is (partly) only possible if it’s also true that I may genuinely trust today and not trust at some point in the future.
Lights out,
Tom
PSSSS-
RJ: "I'd like to see you talking to Jesus and commenting on how he couldn't do something."
Tom: Why not? Jesus "could not" do many miracle in Nazareth because of their lack of faith. Jesus "could not" gather Jerusalem as a hen does her chicks, though he wanted to, because they would not. God's purposes for the Pharisees were "frustrated" because of their lack of faith.
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd
Edited by - TGB on 05/04/2002 12:57:13 AM
Edited by - TGB on 05/04/2002 05:27:15 AM
Edited by - TGB on 05/04/2002 05:32:42 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 5/4/2002 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | |
Greg:
quote:
But coudl we not just as easily say that God CANNOT intervene to stop them from choosing evil, because he WILLED to create a world where people have free choice. If he intervened, it would simply not be true that he gave them free choice.
I am not sure this works entirely. There are many instances where God does intervene for people. In many cases there is also intercession involved, but He intervenes nonetheless. Missionaries, for instance, often have stories of divine assistance in times of need. 2Kings 6:16-23 also comes to mind as an example where God intervines in the affairs of men. We can think of other examples, too. How about Jonah, and Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4. These verses suggest that God "CAN" intervene with our choices, if he so chooses.
However, Tom correctly illustrates the tension that exists between the CANNOT and WILL NOT.
quote:
Tom: Why not? Jesus "could not" do many miracle in Nazareth because of their lack of faith. Jesus "could not" gather Jerusalem as a hen does her chicks, though he wanted to, because they would not. God's purposes for the Pharisees were "frustrated" because of their lack of faith.
Tom, I thought your most recent post on this topic was excellent. However, I would like to make an observation. God is the object of our Faith. God tells us to trust him because of what he has done in the past -- his character.
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.
-- 2 Tim. 2:13 (NRSVA)
There are many examples in scripture where people of God wavered in their "faith" -- e.g., John the Baptist, Elijah, Peter. In response to this, I am reminded of the following prayer:
Immediately the father of the child cried out,£ “I believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:24 (NRSVA)
However, there is still the case where there is apparent faith, and then apostasy. Personally, I think the answer to that question is found in what a person is trusting in. Are we trusting in God, or are we trusting God as long as certain conditions exist. The crucible of trials and persecution test and refine our faith. I think this is what is meant when we are told to:
...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Phil. 2:12-13 (NRSVA)
And...
Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test! 2 Cor. 13:5 (NRSVA)
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/4/2002 9:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc: But could we not just as easily say that God CANNOT intervene to stop them from choosing evil, because he WILLED to create a world where people have free choice. If he intervened, it would simply not be true that he gave them free choice.
Tom: Exactly. There's a difference between what God cannot do (properly speaking), i.e. sin, and what God cannot do because of previous commitments which now limit his options. Many of God's "cannot's" follow a previous "will not." Had she previously willed differently she could now do differently.
Winghead: I would like to make an observation. God is the object of our Faith. God tells us to trust him because of what he has done in the past -- his character.
Tom: Right on. Agree.
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd
Edited by - TGB on 05/04/2002 2:52:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 5/5/2002 5:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bob,
I've been indisposed for a while. I'm glad to finally get back to this discussion. I had asked, How do you know you are saved? Because you followed certain steps?
Bob writes:quote:
I know I am saved because I did what God told me to do, believe.
Then your salvation is conditional, based upon your own work. Belief is a work, according to Jn 6:29: "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." This is contrary to Eph 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." My salvation is *known* by faith, but it was freely given to me apart from anything that I myself have done.
Bob writesquote:
You know the verses. In Philippi Paul and Silas were in prison. After the earthquake, the jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. In Acts 16:31, “they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior, and I am saved.
It does not say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, THEN you will be saved ..." Belief indicates to a person that he has been regenerated (See Ro. 4, Abraham's ability to believe indicated to him that he had been regenerated and had a righteous standing before God). If the jailer chose to believe, it would indicate to him that he has been regenerated and that he will be saved; belief is indicative and attends regeneration; it is not causal in any way.
Bob writes:quote:
I find in Rom 4:4-5 the basis for my imputed righteousness: “Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness”. I believed on Him.
Bob, this is an erroneous understanding of the verse. There is no "imputation." The word "elogisthE" in v. 3 is simply "told, counted unto." The antecedent of "him" is Abraham. Abraham's faith was told to him as righteousness; that is, Abraham was informed that his faith was indicative that he had a righteous standing before God.
Bob writes:quote:
Understanding that I could not be justified by any works, I believed in Christ Jesus ...
Again, belief IS a work. Belief does not save. Note what Paul says here: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2Ti 2:13. We are saved by the atonement plus nothing. The blood that was shed for me paid the price. My belief is secondary. My good works are tertiary. When you say, "Understanding I could not be justified by any works, I believed in Christ Jesus," you're not taking it far enough. It should rather be, "Understanding I could not be justified by any works, not even by my own belief, I threw myself at the feet of the One Who can cast both body and soul into hell and pleaded for mercy."
Bob writes:quote:
... I believed in Christ Jesus so I could b justified by His faithfulness in going to the cross and paying for my sin.
If your belief is required for His payment to count, then of what value was the payment? It really didn't pay for anything in that case, because it was conditioned upon your acceptance of it. On this premise, you paid your own ransom with Christ's blood. This error is further borne out by the fact that a universal atonement (i.e., Christ shedding His blood for everyone) cheapens His sacrifice because it really did not accomplish anything *until* someone accepted it. "It is finished" loses its meaning.
Bob quotes:quote:
Gal 2:16 “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
There it is in black and white. Belief is a work of the law. You cannot be justified by believing. It is the faithfulness of Christ, namely, His faithfulness in dying for those the Father gave to Him. If He had died for all, then the price would have been paid for all, and all would therefore be saved. This is effectual result of His shed blood: His shed blood actually paid the price, long before I ever believed it; long before I was ever born.
Bob writes:quote:
One more passage emphasizes the lack of any works on my part. I have been saved by God’s laver of regeneration because I believed He died for me. Tit 3:5-6 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, ...
According to His mercy which He does not give to all. So regardless of our works (actions, efforts, belief), it is according to His mercy that men are saved, and He will have mercy upon whomever He chooses:quote:
Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory;
Hilston asked "How do you know you won’t lose your salvation? What keeps you saved?”
Bob replies:quote:
I know I won’t lose my salvation because, God made our salvation sure by predestination.
First, what exactly has he predestinated? Second, let me make sure I understand. Even if you fell away from the faith and stopped believing, would you still be saved? Please answer these questions so I can understand your position better.
Bob writes:quote:
Eph 1:4,5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
My adoption is absolute.
What does that mean? Does it mean that no matter what you do, your adoption is immutable? Even if you stopped believing in Him and turned your back until your dying breath, would you still go to heaven?
Bob writes:quote:
Predestination has to do with our adoption, not our salvation.
First, does that mean God predestinated to adoption some who do not get saved? In other words, does that mean one might possibly be predestinated to adoption, refuse to believe at any time in one's life, end up in hell and suffer for eternity even though one was predestinated to adoption?If that's the case, what's the point of adoption? Second, does that mean you might possibly stop believing and lose your salvation, but still be considered an adopted son whilst being tormented in hell?
Bob writes:quote:
When we were bought as slaves from the slave market of sin, we were redeemed by the blood of Christ. That’s redemption.
That's well said, Bob. Does a slave have any say in the matter? Does the illustration apply to everyone? Or just those who believe? If it applies to everyone, does that mean everyone is redeemed? If it only applies to those who accept the payment, then the prices isn't really paid until it is accepted. It's not a redemption by the blood of Christ alone. It is a co-working of His blood and one's decision.
Bob writes:quote:
My adoption has to do with my future standing. Rom 8:23 “Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.” We were made sons with a future and with a future entitlement.
Was everyone without exception predestinated to this future entitlement? Even those who go to hell?
Bob writes:quote:
According to Ramsay, under Greek law in the ancient world, adoption had to do with inheritance. We now have the spirit of adoption, the Holy Spirit, as the guarantee. But we are waiting for the glorious event itself when we receive our inheritance according to Rom 8:15,23 “For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’ 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”
Was our receiving of the Spirit of adoption also predestinated?
Bob writes:quote:
Now, I have the security and grace of His predestination.
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.
Please unpack this for me. Your security is in the grace of His predestination because _________________. Is that grace conditional or unconditional? If it is conditional, then where is the security, since you cannot guarantee you will not fall away? And if you cannot guarantee that, of what value or meaning is His predestination of you?
Bob writes:quote:
My predestined inheritance is assured by God’s predestination.
Did He predestinate the recipients of that inheritance WITHOUT predestinating the salvation of those recipients? Do you have the freedom to reject the inheritance?
Bob writes:quote:
This is according to His purpose who works the body of Christ, the all things, according to His will. He did this because I first trusted in Christ. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
I'm not sure I follow you. You say He predestinated you to adoption and to have this inheritance. But He did all this before you ever believed, right? If He did this because you first trusted in Christ, how did he predestinate it all BEFORE you first trusted in Christ?
Bob writes:quote:
We have two inheritances. One is predestined. We can’t lose it. The other is conditional. We can lose it. We already have our inheritance in Christ because God predestined it. But our other inheritance depends on our actions here. Col 3:23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.
What exactly does one lose? One's salvation? Can salvation be lost or forfeited? If not, why not?
Bob writes:quote:
Once more, I know I am going to heaven because I have God’s guarantee in Eph 1:13,14 “In whom you also, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
Do you have the freedom to reject God's gift and to nullify the guarantee? Or will you go to heaven whether you want to or not?
Gracie',
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
www.tgfonline.org
Edited by - Hilston on 05/05/2002 10:50:43 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/5/2002 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | allryledup: I'm amazed. God spun creation into existence out of nothing, yet we can prevent him from doing something.
Doc: C.S. Lewis called this "the greatest act of omnipotence". God created beings who can effectively say "no" to him. It is amazing.
Winghead: We are "rivetted in finitude", and God knows that whenever we set out to grasp Him, we will go wrong. That is why we are told to not make graven images of God -- and our philosophical and theological constructs can be "graven images" of God. Even our religious or spiritual experience of God is not complete. We only see dimly.
Doc: Amen! Which is why we should let God be God and not confine him to our human conceptions of power or reduce him to the level of compulsive control we would need to run the universe as he does.
Winghead: Again, as Doc reminds us, if we want to know what God is like, the best place to look is at Jesus.
Doc: Not only "the best" – as though he is slightly above all the other places to look. He is the lens through which we need to see everything. Heb 1:1-3. All previous revelations are preliminary, but Christ is in these "last days" and is definitive. All previous revelations are partial, but Christ is full. All other revelations are anticipatory, but Christ is the fulfillment. All other revelations are written, but Christ is incarnate. All other revelations are through prophets, but Christ is the SON. He is the creator of all things, and the heir of all things – all things are from him and for him. He contains all we need to know about God, ourselves, each other, and the world. The FULLNESS of God was in him (col 2/9). He is the image of God (Col 1:"15), the one through whom the glory of God shines (2 cor 4"6), the EXACT imprint of God’s very essence (Heb 1"3), the one through whom we can SEE the Father (Jn 14:7-9), the one true WORD of God (Jn 1"1). He reveals the immutability of God, the omnipotence of God, the wrath of God against sin and the love of God overcoming sin. He is thus the criteria by which all our thoughts about God must be judged.
Bob (to Hilston) You know the verses. In Philippi Paul and Silas were in prison. After the earthquake, the jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. In Acts 16:31, "they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’" I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior, and I am saved.
Hilston replies: It does not say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, THEN you will be saved ..." Belief indicates to a person that he has been regenerated.
Doc chimes in: It seems to me that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is closer to (if not identical to) "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THEN you will be saved" than it is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as evidence that you are saved."
Hilston: Again, belief IS a work.
Doc: Paul CONTRASTS faith with works. This tells me faith is not a work. Still, I agree with you Hilston that we wouldn't even accept the gift if it were not for the work of the Holy Spirit on our hardened hearts. I would simply disagree with your view that this work is irresistible.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/5/2002 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I think I understand the Doc. I also think I understand this love. What I want to know is once you have this love, how do you contain it? How do you go on doing the mundane-everyday tasks when there is so much love overflowing in you?
thanks | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 5/5/2002 12:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome, Pouring,
pouringagapequote:
I think I understand the Doc. I also think I understand this love. What I want to know is once you have this love, how do you contain it? How do you go on doing the mundane-everyday tasks when there is so much love overflowing in you?
You don't contain it. You were never meant to. It is supposed to pour out of you to others. Imagine a Kingdom where everyone loves like that!
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/5/2002 1:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Truly, and practically, there aren't always people to pour onto (or into). I try to channel love through prayer because we CAN pray at all times. Still, I feel full, stuffed, (like at thanksgiving) and uncomfortably so.
thanks
pouringagape
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/5/2002 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Truly, and practically, there aren't always people to pour onto (or into).
St. Francis preached to the birds…
Welcome,
Electra
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3 | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/6/2002 1:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
St. Francis preached to the birds.
Welcome,
Electra
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3
Cool! Oh, but what will I do in the winter?
 fly south?
pouringagape | | Back to Top | | |
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