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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/6/2002 4:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | pouringagapequote:
How do you go on doing the mundane-everyday tasks when there is so much love overflowing in you?
Don't worry... the cares of this life will crush that out of you soon enough. With so few support structures for love in our churches today, your love voltage will be like trying to power the city on 1.5 volt battery.
JUST KIDDING!
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/6/2002 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks everyone. After praying about this today, I think I have my answer.
WORSHIP! True, we can pray always with all kinds of prayer but we can also gush love back to God through worship. He provides a resting place for this "extra" love, and "recycles" it back to us. (you guys probably knew that, but it was eye-opening to me)
Another thing I realized was that the Fruits of the Holy Spirit are each expressions of LOVE.
Love=Love
Joy= an overwhelming response from the love that has been toward us, or through us
Peace=An internal feeling of love that allows us to rest in it-even when life is in an uproar
Patience=A wisdom of love that allows us to contain it for God's timing
Kindness=An act of bearing one anothers burdens kind of love
Gentleness=The delivery of love
Goodness/generosity= A position of love
Faithfulness=A love that is the same yesterday, today, and forever
Self Control=resisting "not love" and taking thoughts captive to lead them to love.
Theologically, I have no idea if these are right. They seem to support the "knocking down the bear" theory of Greg's. If we walk in love, we live by the Spirit and are guided by the Spirit. The proof is
that we will exemplify the Fruits of the Spirit--which is all about love. Also, if we do this (hit the center) it becomes difficult to "miss the mark" and gratify the flesh.
Thanks for letting me take up some space 
pouringagape
1Jo 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/8/2002 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | [Pouringagape: I think I understand the Doc. I also think I understand this love. What I want to know is once you have this love, how do you contain it? How do you go on doing the mundane-everyday tasks when there is so much love overflowing in you?
Doc: Do the mundane acts as acts of love. As you said, do them as an act of worship. (This is captured in the classic of Brother Lawerence, Practicing the Presence of God.
I LOVED your thing on the fruit of the Spirit. Thanks.
Lets "knock over the bear"!
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/8/2002 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | To get back to the topic: how do you trust God in the open view...
Can you imagine walking in the fullness of God's unsurpassable love, having his perfect love abide in you, and overflowing out of you back to God and to all others, and then worrying about whether or not your "secure"?
The question of trusting God arises only out of disunity with God. It is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. If we derive trust because of this passage or that passage, we are trusting the passage (actually, our interpretation of the passage), not God.
It is like a husband who has to continually check the marriage certificate to reassure himself he is still married. Worse, he has to leverage the "for better or for worse" in his "relationship" with his wife to continually reassure himself she won't leave. His knowledge of the rules of the document give him security. But it is really no security. And the very need for this kind of security is a testimony that the husband and wife are not in loving union with one another.
the entire questioning process is a the sad result of a lack of union with God. If you abide in God -- which is to abide in his love (I JN 4) -- the question does not arise. Its not a theory, or an argument, that gives security. Its the reality of God's love for you.
In his outrageous love,
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 5/8/2002 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc and pouring,
Oh, man, you two are annoited, I'm in heaven! 
We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in him.
God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. 1 John 4:16 (NLT)
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
Edited by - winghead on 05/08/2002 11:29:40 PM
Edited by - winghead on 05/08/2002 11:30:13 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/9/2002 7:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
allryledup: I'm amazed. God spun creation into existence out of nothing, yet we can prevent him from doing something.
Doc: C.S. Lewis called this "the greatest act of omnipotence". God created beings who can effectively say "no" to him. It is amazing.
I don't think that the ability of man to say no has anything to do with preventing God from doing something. I don't see that at all in Lewis's quote. The fact that God allows, decrees, permits (however you wish to state it) man to contradict his laws has nothing to do with thwarting, limiting or preventing his will. If God so chose to end that situation it could have happened at any time. But, praise the mystery of God! He did not do that. As it is His purposes will not be changed.
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
The full context of Scripture testifies to this. Regardless of the smattering of verses which neccessarily dip to the finite human mind causing us to think God is somehow removed from preventing something, God is God. If God is grieved over something, do you not believe that he could have readily stopped that from happening? For any of us to say it was outside of His power is frightful. Can we explain why He permits/ordains things that may grieve Him? No. It's not our business. Any attempts to diminish His authority and power by constraining Him in any way is blaspheme, and if we try to explain things in a way that say God cannot do something, that's exactly what's happening. It seems to me that there is a constant pressing to restrict God. Why would we want to speculate on God's experience of time or his ability to be thwarted by man? I keep hearing that from the O.V. I find no comfort in that. I am told constantly that I am misunderstanding the O.V., that love reigns supreme and God will accomplish his purposes by working with man. That is somehow supposed to be empowering? How do you know that if He relies on and reacts to sinful man on a constant basis because he does not know our next action, or is surprised? What hope is there in God if God is less than God? Because if the O.V. insists on the claim that God is at all prevented from doing something through the free will decisions of man, that's exactly the case.
Blessing to all in His name,
R.J.
Edited by - allryledup on 05/09/2002 12:30:32 PM
Edited by - allryledup on 05/09/2002 12:32:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 5/9/2002 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Your attempt to derail this thread is simply awful. See my comments inline below:
You write: quote:
Can you imagine walking in the fullness of God's unsurpassable love, having his perfect love abide in you, and overflowing out of you back to God and to all others, and then worrying about whether or not your "secure"?
No, but then again, it's difficult to imagine walking in the fullness of God's unsurpassable love, having his perfect love abide in me, and overflowing out of me back to God and to all others amid the cares and distractions of daily life, struggling with the influence and effects of sin, and needing the reassurance of the scriptures. Your sentence can be put another way: "Can you imagine walking in the fullness of God's unsurpassable love, having his perfect love abide in you, and overflowing out of you back to God and to all others, and then having to consult the Bible for comfort and encouragement when you're feeling down?" What you describe here is our desire and hope, and something that I trust the Lord will make into reality when I'm finally with Him in the eternal state. And this goes right to the heart of the subject: What assurance do you have that you will ever achieve the state you describe? I have the assurance that God will do this work in me and that there is nothing I will do to thwart it. I can rest assured that this will become a reality because He has decreed and will make sure it happens, and that I need not depend upon or trust in my own efforts for this to come to fruition.
Greg writes:quote:
The question of trusting God arises only out of disunity with God.
Of course! You might as well say the sky is blue. This disunity is common in the Christian experience and the result of having to daily deal with our human frailties and shortcomings. Did you intend to heap guilt upon the "less spiritual" with this statement?
Greg writes:quote:
If we derive trust because of this passage or that passage, we are trusting the passage (actually, our interpretation of the passage), not God.
You've exposed a horrible and egregious flaw in your theology, Greg. Unless you mispoke, you apparently do not believe there is objective knowledge to be attained from the Word of God. You've undermined everyone's trust in God and His Word by making this statement. This is terrible. I might as well stop right now and not waste anymore of my time reading your books. Your philosophical musings have trumped the role of scripture. How can I know anything for sure anymore? What if I'm improperly trusting in my interpretation of scripture when it comes to salvation? Or some other aspects of my faith and practice? Should I really cut off my hand if it offends me? What if I'm improperly trusting in my interpretation that is figurative? Whence do you derive your understanding of God's character? If you say, "The Bible," then how do you know your understanding is not a distorted and inaccurate caricature based on a false interpretation of scripture? God has magnified His word above His name; you've reduced it to a matter of personal interpretation.
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Does the psalmist say "So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in my interpretation of thy word" (Ps 119:42)? Or "This is my comfort in my affliction: for my interpretation of thy word hath quickened me" (Ps 119:50)? Or "My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in my interpretation of thy word. (Ps 119:81)?
Does Paul say to the Thessalonians, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with your interpretation of these words" (1Th 4:17,18)?
I urge you to reconsider and retract this blatant assault upon God's holy Word.
Greg writes: quote:
It is like a husband who has to continually check the marriage certificate to reassure himself he is still married. Worse, he has to leverage the "for better or for worse" in his "relationship" with his wife to continually reassure himself she won't leave. His knowledge of the rules of the document give him security. But it is really no security. And the very need for this kind of security is a testimony that the husband and wife are not in loving union with one another.
First of all, John wrote to his readers for the expressed purpose of reassuring them of their relationship to God (1Jn 5:13). Your illustration is entirely off-point. Most human relationships don't even come close to the unconditional unilateral love God has for His children. The fact is, without the Lord as the foundation of a marriage, there is little security or assurance that one spouse will not let the other down, or worse. As a pastor, surely you must know this. How many times have you heard, "If you would have asked me about my marriage a year ago, I would have told you that everything was great and that I had no doubt it would last for the rest of our lives. Now I'm divorced. How did this happen?" Of course there are myriad reasons why these things happen, but the fact is, no amount or quality of *feeling* or *perception* gives full unwavering assurance that any human relationship will last. The ONLY relationship that is infallible is God's relationship to His chosen ones. Even when WE are unfaithful, "He abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2Ti 2:13), that is to say, we can count on His faithfulness because anything less would be a denial of His own character.
Greg writes: quote:
... the entire questioning process is a the sad result of a lack of union with God.
Of course, Greg. The grass is also typyically green. Regardless of your dismissal of the idea as so foreign to the sinless nirvana-state you've attained with God, the rest of us struggle with the mundane pressures and vicissitudes of life, temptations, frustrations, disappointments and failed plans. We need encouragement from the scriptures; we need reassurance and to have our confidence in the Lord and His Word reinforced. Surely, as a pastor, you must know this, even if you yourself know nothing of such unspiritual struggles.
Greg writes: quote:
If you abide in God -- which is to abide in his love (I JN 4) -- the question does not arise. Its not a theory, or an argument, that gives security. Its the reality of God's love for you.
You're wrong, Greg. Arguments (truth claims expressed in scripture) do indeed give security. This is part of the purpose of scripture. The fact is, except in special cases, you cannot correctly and adequately know the reality of God's love for you apart from those arguments. Further, your stating what ought to be the case doesn't account for the fact that the scriptures themselves recognize the human need for reassurance and the comfort, confidence and strength in faith that comes from the reaffirmation of solid truths, the reckoning of God's faithfulness, and the reinforcement of the Hope that is in us.
Consider the following:
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Unlike you, Greg, John thought it was important to give his readers a basis for trusting the Lord.
Col. 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Unlike you, Greg, Paul thought is was important to give his readers a basis for trusting the Lord.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
It may be that you don't ever experience this need, Greg, but apparently Paul understood his audience's need for this kind of reassurance. So while you may think or at least intimate that my questions are somehow not germane because they reflect a lack of love or spirituality or whatever, the writers of the scriptures thought differently. Not only did they recognize the need of their readers for confidence and assurance, their desire for their readers was to have full assurance of hope, and thus they provided and argued grounds upon which to base that full assurance. This is the nature of my questions in this thread.
To the elect Jews, the author of Hebrews writes:
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Salubrious wishes,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
www.tgfonline.org
Edited by - Hilston on 05/09/2002 1:54:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/9/2002 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | RJ-
I think the dialogue may be getting hung up on semantics…a little bit. What does it mean to “prevent” God from doing something? We might be assuming different meanings here.
I haven’t used the word “prevent” a lot to describe how we oppose God, but depending on how one defines the word I may or may not have a problem with it. I’m inclined to assume it encompasses the sort of misuse of freedom which God decided to permit because such a possibility was required if the sort of loving relationships God wanted were also to be had by us and him. So, I’d suggest that we “prevent” God’s will only in ways God decided to “permit.” If God allows us to say “no” to him, then in this sense we “prevent” God from accomplishing his will, but only with respect to the sphere of influence this “yes” or “no” may have. With respect to our “no,” God’s will is prevented. How does this amount to blasphemy? It hardly places God at our mercy. On the contrary, we are at his mercy, for God sovereignly determined to create such a world and God unilaterally determines what the consequences of our use of the gift of freedom will be. God’s in charge.
James-
My dear rigorously theologically-inclined friend, I pass on the following bit of advice which will make life more enjoyable for you and for those you interact with—“Always assume the best.” You might have shared with Doc that he was coming across as saying such-and-such and that this was how you were reading him before launching in. It’s always best to confirm your understanding of a person before responding so intensely. If I’m too concerned about room temperature, so be it. I don’t intend on giving the concern up. Everybody winds up learning a lot more and contributing to others far more.
I doubt that Doc is suggesting that the Word of God be tossed out as a source of comfort and assurance for believers. Of course, I might be misunderstanding him myself, but my guess is that what Doc was getting at was that if there is not a deepening intimacy with God on a relational level, an ongoing experience of God’s presence, then this or that passage from the Bible will not bring us the sort of assurance and trust we long for. On the other hand, where such intimacy exists, the biblical passages often play a confirming and supporting role. Doc can correct me if I’m wrong. That’s my take on what Doc was driving at.
The only thing I would add is that inasmuch as we experience God in and through the Scriptures, God’s promises found there can and do bring us into God’s presence where intimacy is experienced. I doubt Doc would deny this. The point is, I think, intimacy and trust are relational and experiential and cannot be had with a “book.” Whatever the Bible might say to us, it cannot result in personal change until we take it into God’s presence and there encounter him. Make sense?
So, James, chill a bit dude. Be intense, but be kind. Make sure you’ve confirmed your understanding of somebody before launching the attack. Maybe you thought that’s what you were doing. Hey, maybe I’ve misunderstood you!
Did you ever light up that Cuban as I suggested?
Love in Christ,
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/9/2002 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | 1Pe 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
Php 2:2
make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Col 3:14
Beyond all these things {put on} love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
1Th 4:9
Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for {anyone} to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another
1Pe 1:22
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart
Jude 1:21
keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
2Ti 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
Phm 1:5
...because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints
Phm 1:7
For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
Heb 10:24
and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb 13:1
Let love of the brethren continue.
Joh 15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Co 8:1
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
Ro 12:9
{Let} love {be} without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
Ro 12:10
{Be} devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
Ro 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled {the} law.
Joh 21:15
So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus *said to Simon Peter, "Simon, {son} of John, do you love Me more than these?" He *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He *said to him, "Tend My lambs."
Joh 21:16
He *said to him again a second time, "Simon, {son} of John, do you love Me?" He *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He *said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
Joh 21:17
He *said to him the third time, "Simon, {son} of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep.
Joh 15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
Joh 14:21
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
Joh 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
1Th 3:12
and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also {do} for you;
1Co 13:2
If I have {the gift of} prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Joh 13:35
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Joh 17:26
and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
2Th 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ.
1Ti 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2Co 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
Ro 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Ro 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Eph 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ro 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.
Ro 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 3:17
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; {and} that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Eph 4:2
with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Eph 4:15
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all {aspects} into Him who is the head, {even} Christ,
Eph 4:16
from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Eph 5:2
and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
1Co 13:1
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2
If I have {the gift of} prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3
And if I give all my possessions to feed {the poor,} and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
1Co 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind {and} is not jealous; love does not brag {and} is not arrogant,
1Co 13:8
Love never fails; but if {there are gifts of} prophecy, they will be done away; if {there are} tongues, they will cease; if {there is} knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Co 14:1
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual {gifts,} ...
1Co 16:14
Let all that you do be done in love.
1Co 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.
1Co 16:24
My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
2Co 2:8
Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm {your} love for him.
2Co 6:6
in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love,
2Co 8:24
Therefore openly before the churches, show them the proof of your love and of our reason for boasting about you.
2Co 13:11
Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
2Co 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Ga 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Ga 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only {do} not {turn} your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Ga 5:14
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the {statement,} "You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself."
Ga 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:28
So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
Eph 5:33
Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must {see to it} that she respects her husband.
Eph 6:24
Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible {love.}
Php 1:9
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
Joh 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Joh 15:12
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:17
"This I command you, that you love one another.
1Jo 3:10
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1Jo 3:11
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another
1Jo 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jo 3:16
We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17
But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
1Jo 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1Jo 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jo 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1Jo 4:9
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
1Jo 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1Jo 4:12
No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:16
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Jo 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1Jo 4:19
We love, because He first loved us.
1Jo 4:20
If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
Ro 13:9 ... and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."
Sorry about my tangent...
The Bible is so FULL of love!
Love,
pouringagape
"All we need is love" The Beatles
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 5/9/2002 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | James,
Perhaps I can offer a clarification on Doc's comments to you. God has Doc currently immersed in an intense scriptural study of love. This is partially related to his current preaching. In any case, the Lord is similarily speaking to many of us on this topic, and I think we all are seeing how God's love relates to so much of the Christian life, and similarly our theology. We are also connecting, if only dimly, with God's love, which brings great joy.
We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in him.
God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.
1 John 4:16 (NLT)
In this process, as we realize how much God loves us, we are able to trust him more. The NRSV says:
So we have known and believe the love that God has for us.
God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. 1 John 4:16 (NRSVA)
We have "known and believe the love that God has for us..." The love of God helps us to trust him. We trust those we love. Especially, those who have proved trustworthy, and God has proven trustworthy.
This brings us to a point Doc and I agree with you on. We do trust God because of what he has done, and scripture testifies to us about God, and His faithfulness. This, combined with faith...
What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. Heb. 11:1 (NLT)
...And knowledge of God's love, brings us to trust Him. The more we grasp this with our whole being, the more our faith, and trust in Him grows.
While God has demonstrated his faithfulness to us, and scripture is a major part of this testimony, and Doc never minimalizes scripture, faith is not purely an intellectual exercise. If it were, perhaps more people would have it.
Faith is a spiritual thing. John of the Cross called it a "dark night", because it is something that by nature goes beyond the tangible things of this world, including our intellectual understanding -- "evidence of things we cannot see." In fact, one of the beautiful things about Christian faith is that one does not need an IQ of a genius to come into its possession.
Trusting God is not something we can toss into a bucket with our theological and philosophical systems. Faith, like God, goes beyond all of those things.
Faith knows God is trustworthy, no matter how screwed up our theology might be. Even an Open Theist can trust God! 
I think what Greg was getting at is that when you connect with the Love of God, these types of agruements quickly become moot.
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Hilston
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 5/9/2002 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tom,
Thanks for writing. I'm going back to a post of yours that I had missed. I'm going to try to catch up to the rest of this discussion. :)
Tom writes:quote:
Love is THE basis of interpersonal trust. God loves me, so I trust him. That’s it.
Unpack this for me, Tom. What does it mean for God to love you? And precisely what are you trusting Him for?
Tom writes:quote:
Secondly, I think something has gone awry in a relationship which seeks to catalogue in precisely defined terms “what I can trust you FOR” and “what I cannot trust you FOR.” I don’t want to deny absolutely that there are things we trust God for and things we don’t trust God for. What I want to avoid saying is that we must first accurately place all of life’s experiences into either one of these two categories before we can trust God at all.
This sounds evasive, Tom. The Bible instructs us to have a detailed knowledge (epignosis) of God's word. This includes having a knowledge of the basis for our trust in Him, about which the scriptures do not equivocate. We are to trust Him; no one denies this. What I want to know is what you trust Him for. For example, I do NOT, in this dispensation, trust God to keep me from physical harm or illness. I'm looking for that kind of specificity.
Tom writes:quote:
Thirdly, there is no logical or biblical reason I can think of for insisting that unless God exhaustively determines the minutia of history we are left with no basis upon which to trust God. Trust by definition looks at PAST and PRESENT performance and concludes that these are reason enough to trust a person regarding the future. What God has DONE is why I trust him (or at least 90% of why I trust him!).
Past performance does not guarantee future outcomes. Open theists claim that some prophecies have failed. What assurance is there regarding the future if we live in a universe where God's prophecies might fail.
Tom writes:quote:
Fourthly, I simply don’t see that the doctrine of perseverance is able to grant those who hold it assurance that they will certainly persevere.
This statement is as puzzling as the previous one. Let's suppose I made you a promise that you will always win more racquetball games than you lose. Let's further say that I somehow convinced you to trust my ability and knowledge to make good on such a promise. It then follow that you would have assurance, right? Please tell me you understand this.
Tom writes:quote:
Doc’s comments to James were right on. If one claims that:
a) the genuinely regenerate inevitably persevere,
b) this doctrine affords us great comfort and assurance of final perseverance, and
c) apostasy is proof that one was not genuinely regenerate,
…then it appears to me to be impossible for her to know that she is not in fact one of those who mistakenly believe themselves to be saved when in fact God has determined them for temporary assurance and final destruction.
There is no such thing as temporary assurance. The Bible speaks of full assurance. Those who apostasize never had full assurance. Full assurance and confidence is not available or granted to the reprobate/apostate.
Tom writes:quote:
Whatever evidence she may offer that she is truly saved, ...
Under what circumstances? Whoever demands such evidence? A truly saved person knows he/she is truly saved.
Tom writes:quote:
... whatever sense of security she claims to possess, whatever witness of the Spirit bangs away in her heart, these all may be, and indeed HAVE BEEN, offered most wholeheartedly by those who later proved themselves (ala Calvinism) not to have been genuine believers.
If she truly has the security provided by the witness of the Spirit, she is saved. There is nothing that can or will change that. Those who later manifest that their profession was false and that they are truly apostates did not ever have the security and witness of the Spirit. I'm not sure where this idea, expressed by several OpenTheists, comes from. Apostates are self-deluded and live in fear as rebels. There is no assurance ever. And if pressed, these apostates would eventually betray the falsity of their profession.
Tom writes:quote:
... So I think she must admit that the same may be true of her.
Anyone who is truly saved does not have this concern.
Tom writes:quote:
... So, I appreciate James’ sense of security, but there’s really no argument he can provide for proving that his assurance is not utterly mistaken ...
Nor am I obligated to. I am not required to prove my salvation to anyone. If I am obedient to scripture and claim to love Christ, that suffices to put me in good standing with other Christians. Whether or not I am truly a believer is not an issue unless/until I demonstrate otherwise by my attitudes or behavior.
Tom writes:quote:
... (as he claims it was in the case of those who have apostatized) if he also wants to claim that all those who apostatize thereby prove the defective nature of their faith from the start.
What is a "defective faith"?
Tom writes:quote:
When it comes to assurance of salvation I think the Bible leads us to conclude that such assurance belongs to one class of people, those who are in fact trusting Christ NOW (see John’s Gospel too).
I agree. Apostates do not trust in Christ. But since you mention it here, about what precisely are you trusting Christ?
Tom writes:quote:
Lastly, we all talked a long time ago about this and I think Doc (or somebody) made the comment that since free will is finite and tends over time to give way to compatibilistic free will, ...
Please what you mean by "compatibilistic free will."
Tom writes:quote:
... then it stands to reason that the believer over time becomes more solidified in her trust and commitment to Christ. The possibility of her apostatizing decreases over time.
Do you believe a true believer might not become solidified in his/her faith and end up in apostasy?
Tom writes:quote:
Lastly lastly, nothing I’ve said should be taken to mean I am NOT trusting in God to keep me. I am.
How does He keep you from apostasizing of your own free will?
Tom writes:quote:
Peter said it well, “kept by faith through the power of God.”
Whose faith keeps you? Yours or Christ's?
Tom writes:quote:
Both the divine and human are there. Both are required. Both reflect acts that cannot be performed by the other. Thus, staying the course is a work of synergy. I am trusting God to keep me means both “I am trusting GOD TO KEEP me” and “I AM TRUSTING God to keep me.” I trust but God keeps.
So if you stop trusting, God stops keeping, right?
Tom writes:quote:
... To recognize that my trust is not something God unconditionally predetermines and irresistibly executes is not to say I keep myself. My “trusting” doesn’t take God out of the picture. Neither does his “keeping” take me out of the picture. So, James asks what may we trust God for with respect to the future. We may trust God to keep those who trust him. Those who trust are kept. Those who do not trust are not kept.
That's not assurance, Tom. You ultimately must trust yourself to stay saved. There is no confidence in that.
Psalms 118:8
[It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Proverbs 3:26
For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
Tom writes:quote:
But (lastly, lastly, lastly) remember, if you also want to insist that those who once trusted and now do not prove that they never truly trusted, then you can’t really claim to know certainly that you're trusting God now.
Sure I can. And it doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. I have the full assurance of the scripture and the witness of the Spirit that I have eternal life. I will not fall away because it is not possible. I don't have to convince you because it's not my place to prove it. The scriptures are the final authority, and those words testify to my righteous standing before God.
Tom writes:quote:
The assurance that comes from present trust is (partly) only possible if it’s also true that I may genuinely trust today and not trust at some point in the future.
This principle of "genuineness" that you and all Open Theists seem to apply to love (vs. hate) and good (vs. evil) and now trust (vs. distrust) appears to be a complete fabrication. Do you have any biblical support for this dualist premise that "genuine" love and good and trust require the equi-counter potential to do the opposite?
Efcharisto polu',
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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Hilston
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 5/9/2002 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Pouringagape,
Thanks for posting the wonderful list of verses. However, I'm curious: What is your point? No one here is denying that God loves His chosen ones. It's not at issue. But since you brought it up, would you (or anyone who wishes to answer) explain what it means for God to love you? Give me specifics. While you're at it, please define "love" as you understand it.
Domo arigato,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/9/2002 11:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi James-
It seems that a lot of what you ask has been already been answered by me and others. But here goes another try.
James: What does it mean for God to love you?
Tom: The Cross.
James: And precisely what are you trusting Him for?
Tom: To continue pursuing me with the same sort of love which put him on the Cross.
James: This sounds evasive, Tom. The Bible instructs us to have a detailed knowledge (epignosis) of God's word. This includes having a knowledge of the basis for our trust in Him, about which the scriptures do not equivocate. We are to trust Him; no one denies this. What I want to know is what you trust Him for. For example, I do NOT, in this dispensation, trust God to keep me from physical harm or illness. I'm looking for that kind of specificity.
Tom: I know you want specifics, James, as in “I trust for the following things, a), b), c), and d). I really don’t think that way bro. Maybe that’s why I’m an open theist and you’re a Calvinist. I totally agree that the Word of God provides a basis for our trust in God. Exactly, so I trust him. I see a God who took the initiative to create, to reveal himself, to respond redemptively in history to heal our world, a God who pursues faithless Israel and who ultimately let us hang him on a cross, and I say to myself, "I can trust somebody like THAT in and through whatever life brings me." I don't need this kind of God to assure me that he can see into a crystal ball all that will happen in the future. Who needs a crystal ball to provide a basis for her sense of assurance when you have the Cross?
James: Past performance does not guarantee future outcomes.
Tom: Then you seem to be trusting in something other than God's proven character. Besides, trust is not about guaranteed future outcomes as much as it is about believing God will act a certain way in whatever happens. Others are better than I am at wording this. I'm not so clear. Sorry.
James: Open theists claim that some prophecies have failed. What assurance is there regarding the future if we live in a universe where God's prophecies might fail?
Tom: Open theists claim that some prophesies were conditional and so were did not come to pass. If your sense of assurance requires every prophecy God makes to come to pass then this is a problem for you.
James: There is no such thing as temporary assurance. The Bible speaks of full assurance. Those who apostasize never had full assurance. Full assurance and confidence is not available or granted to the reprobate/apostate.
Tom: There certainly IS such a thing as people believing temporarily that they possess full assurance. You may claim that those who apostatize never possessed the real thing, but you cannot claim that those who apostatize never believed they possessed the real thing (just as you believe). That’s the point. How do you know you are not as mistaken as they are? I’m not asking you to prove anything to me. I was asking you to share with me how you prove it to yourself. All you’ve said so far is, “I know, I know. The Bible tells me so.” The world’s full of apostates who said the same thing with the same conviction and sense of assurance. How do YOU know you’re not one of them?
James: If she truly has the security provided by the witness of the Spirit, she is saved. There is nothing that can or will change that. Those who later manifest that their profession was false and that they are truly apostates did not ever have the security and witness of the Spirit.
Tom: But they b-e-l-i-e-v-e-d as confidently as you do that they did. See it now?
James: I'm not sure where this idea, expressed by several OpenTheists, comes from. Apostates are self-deluded and live in fear as rebels. There is no assurance ever.
Tom: Exactly my point. If apostates are "self-deluded" then they're going to believe themselves saved and in possession of every confidence you claim to possess. They don't know they're fakes. So, how do you know you're not a fake, James? I'll answer for you since you wont': Answer: You don't know. Self-deluded people don't know they're self-deluded.
It is obviously not true that all apostates spent their so-called “believing years” living in fear as rebels and did not profess to experiencing great assurance and settled conviction. You may call this all false assurance if you want to, but you cannot deny that THEY believed it to be genuine…again, just as you believe yours to be genuine.
James: Anyone who is truly saved does not have this concern.
Tom: I have this concern. It doesn’t occupy me, and it’s not a fear. But I do take the warning passages as holding out to me the possibility of apostasy.
James: I am not required to prove my salvation to anyone.
Tom: I’ve never asked you to prove your salvation to me. I’ve only asked you to explain the basis upon which you prove it to yourself if it is also true that whatever evidence you claim to rest your assurance upon was also produced by those who are now apostate. Not having to prove your salvation to me doesn’t negate the argument I presented earlier.
James: I agree. Apostates do not trust in Christ.
Tom: Again, they sincerely believe to themselves to be trusting in Christ. At the time, they professed to every assurance you now profess to and with the same conviction you claim to possess.
James: But since you mention it here, about what precisely are you trusting Christ?
Tom: I trust Christ in everything to fulfill every promise he makes; to save the repentant, to forgive my sins, to respond to my heart’s cry, to lead and guide my steps as I seek his will, to form Christ in me as I pursue him, to come again for me. How long do you want the list to go? James, if there’s something specific you’re looking for, why don’t you say, “Tom, do you trust God to _________? Why or why not?” You might get answers more quickly.
James: Do you believe a true believer might not become solidified in his/her faith and end up in apostasy?
Tom: Yes.
James: How does He keep you from apostasizing of your own free will?
Tom: I don’t think “keeping” us amounts to absolute guarantees that we will never apostatize.
James: Whose faith keeps you? Yours or Christ's?
Tom: Nobody’s faith “alone” keeps them. Peter says, “kept by the power of God through faith.” The faith is ours. The power is his.
James: So if you stop trusting, God stops keeping, right?
Tom: Life’s full of moments where we are less than completely trusting of God. The ebb and flow of life’s experiences finds us full of faith and doubt. No problem. Apostasy on the other hand would seem to me to be a conscious, studied, and determined repudiation of faith in Christ. I don’t find Scripture anywhere promising eternal life to those who make such a determination.
Tom (earlier): ... To recognize that my trust is not something God unconditionally predetermines and irresistibly executes is not to say I keep myself. My “trusting” doesn’t take God out of the picture. Neither does his “keeping” take me out of the picture. So, James asks what may we trust God for with respect to the future. We may trust God to keep those who trust him. Those who trust are kept. Those who do not trust are not kept.
James: That's not assurance, Tom.
Tom: I suppose I could just say it’s assurance to ME and that I’m under no obligation to prove anything to you, but that wouldn’t help dialogue too much would it?
James: You ultimately must trust yourself to stay saved. There is no confidence in that.
Tom: No, I ultimately trust God to stay saved. I’m the one who’s trusting. God’s the one who’s saving. God, not myself or the act of trusting in itself, is the object of my trust.
James: And it doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. I have the full assurance of the scripture and the witness of the Spirit that I have eternal life. I will not fall away because it is not possible. I don't have to convince you because it's not my place to prove it. The scriptures are the final authority, and those words testify to my righteous standing before God.
Tom: I know apostates who said the same thing with the same conviction. In any case, I’m very happy for you, James! I’m quite happy and assured as well. Amazing isn’t it? Calvinists and Arminians can both cry “Abba, Father!”
James: This principle of "genuineness" that you and all Open Theists seem to apply to love (vs. hate) and good (vs. evil) and now trust (vs. distrust) appears to be a complete fabrication. Do you have any biblical support for this dualist premise that "genuine" love and good and trust require the equi-counter potential to do the opposite?
Tom: This goes back to the analogy I earlier asked you for which you were unable to produce. I simply have no category in which I can understand the choice to love someone as genuine love if the choice could not have been otherwise. If it could not have been otherwise, I wouldn’t call it love and I don’t know of anybody who would call it love. Well, maybe I know a few. I think you’d be one of them, right?
Gotta run.
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd
Edited by - TGB on 05/10/2002 09:16:07 AM
Edited by - TGB on 05/10/2002 09:32:02 AM
Edited by - TGB on 05/10/2002 09:35:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/10/2002 1:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Hilston,
Well, my "point" is that love is the point.
I really believe if we just love-we will see.
(Also, I got caught up in the moment doing a Bible study on Love ... sorry) To answer your other questions I'll try an example:
As I write to you right now, I'm thinking "He is precious to God, answer his questions with care" "do love" "be love" and "just love"
Anything else is secondary.
Naturally, I could argue points with you
about this or that, but I really believe it doesn't matter. What's more profitable is trying to open myself to let Jesus' love flow through me. (for sure I'll fall short of that, but trying to "line up my will with His--for you--is the goal")
Since I don't know you it would be easy for me to sort by our differences. On the other hand, it would be more central, important, produce more fruit, and feel better to both of us if I sort by what we have in common. Jesus Christ (love) is our focal point.
For me to look at you with no pre-judgement,(or at least interrupt the thought as early as possible, and lead it away from judgement) not assuming that I know what lies under the surface of your words--that, to me is love.
For me to always put your "worth before God" higher than any argument or point either of us may have--that is love.
For you to engage me in conversation about something so clearly important to me--that is also love.
When we weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice--that is love.
When we hold each other up in prayer--that is love too.
Obeying is love.
Repenting is love.
Being aware is love.
Allowing God to be God and just resting in Him is also love.
Listening is love.
(oh boy, you opened a can of worms  )
love is patient
love is kind
love is not envious
love is not boastful
love is not arrogant
love does not insist on its own way
love is not irritable
love is not resentful
love doesn't rejoice in wrongdoing
love rejoices in the truth (i love that one)
love bears all things
love believes all things
love hopes
love endures
As far as God's love toward me, I believe it is all the above and as Tom said "continually pursuing" me. Being my source, Being my provider, Being my worth, showing me that His burden is (truly) light!
So so so much more :)
Love,
pouringagape
(NOT derailing this thread is probably also love...I should stop!)
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/10/2002 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Hope it's okay if I jump in on this.
Pouringagape wrote:
quote:
Allowing God to be God and just resting in Him is also love.
I think that is what causes tension when I consider the Open View. When I read of reasoning which confines God to our perception if time, I do not see that as Allowing God to be God. Your list of acts of love basically has no complaint from me, it's just that the Open View doesn't seem to adhere to the principle I quoted. Trying to apply quantum theories to God is one example. You can't do that, and that's exactly what I've read on this board. (If I could find Greg's quote theorizing on God's experience of time I'd insert it, but I can't find it). I'm not saying our intellect and scientific understanding has no merit, but when it comes to understanding God's being and his existence beyond as we can possibly understand it, it has no place. Otherwise you're absolutely correct. Part of our love towards our heavenly Father requires that we do not challenge who he is. Rather we should revere and study God's Word, and fall to our knees when we consider that everything past, present and future is under his authority and guidance. I do not consider attempts to rationalize God's experience of time to fit in with that reverence.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
In Christ's love,
R.J.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/10/2002 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | RJ: Hope it's okay if I jump in on this.
Tom: Jump high brother! Jump!
Pouringagape: Allowing God to be God and just resting in Him is also love.
RJ: I think that is what causes tension when I consider the Open View.
Tom: Which part? Actually, lots of Calvinists and classical Arminians could affirm what Pourin said while still rejecting the open view. Right?
RJ: ...when it comes to understanding God's being and his existence beyond as we can possibly understand it...
Tom: RJ, if God's being and existence are beyond what we can possibly understand, then how do you know God is not in time as the open view proposes? Secondly, that God is now exclusively in time is argued both by some Calvinists and Arminians. So, it's not an "open view" thing. Right?
Blessings,
Tom
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/10/2002 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tom: RJ, if God's being and existence are beyond what we can possibly understand, then how do you know God is not in time as the open view proposes? Secondly, that God is now exclusively in time is argued both by some Calvinists and Arminians. So, it's not an "open view" thing. Right?
I'm sure there are individuals from all perspectives trying to apprehend God's existence in time. Frankly, I could care less if a Calvinist or Arminian claims to understand God's experience of time. They're fooling themselves. Think about it Tom. This attempt to grasp how God experiences time is ridiculous. In it's grandest form, Scripture reveals a God who is so much more than we can grasp. Trying to pin God into human concepts of time is worthy of admonition. It's like trying to understand how God spoke creation into existence. You can't. You believe because the Bible says so. Your mind concludes that creation testifies there is a God. But to grasp that in a sense of knowing how God could possibly speak things into being, well, it's mind-boggling; and any attempt to claim an understanding of that, or how God experiences time is man's curiousity and pride stepping over the line. The Bible warns against it. We should heed that advice, and focus on the things He has revealed to us.
R.J.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/10/2002 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | RJ-
1. Yes, it gets very mind boggling sometimes!
2. Yes, we should focus on what God has revealed to us. I don't see that he's revealed himself as "timeless" in the classical sense.
3. I don't want so much to claim to know HOW God experiences time as much as to claim THAT he experiences time, and THAT temporality and atemporatliy cannot (as some claim) both be symultaneously true.
4. The classical/Thomistic notion of God's perfections hangs on God's absolute atemporality. I feel a responsibility to deal with this as best I can.
Thanks RJ...
Moving on,
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/10/2002 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | While I can't be sure of how God relates to time, I find nothing in the bible that REQUIRES Him to be timeless. He can certainly know everything He needs to know about the future by determining it to be this way or that. Thus we can securely place our trust in Him in regards to anything He says will happen.
I haven't bought the Open View hook, line and sinker, but ,having more and more difficultly finding things that preclude it from being that way.
peace and love, don
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/10/2002 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
and THAT temporality and atemporatliy cannot (as some claim) both be symultaneously true.
See, that's the problem. From a human experience, yes I agree. But from God's position why couldn't that be true? Because your human logic says so? I'm not saying either way, but as I say, why try to reduce God to some human level of existence in time? Give God his due. Even if you are right Tom (which you will never know in this life), what does it accomplish? Am I supposed to be encouraged that God experiences time in a manner less than the classical position? Which I'm not saying is neccessarily correct. No human will ever know in this life. So, apart from the other issues of foreknowledge which may be justly challenged, we should just leave the time issue alone. Otherwise you'll sound like a contributor to Discovery magazine espousing some revelation about God's experience in time, and the fact would remain that it's an opinion based on very finite human knowledge, not the Word of God.
I know this is off track with this thread, so I'll throw it back to those trying to understand love and trusting Christ. A much more valuable and realistic task.
R.J.
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/10/2002 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I find nothing in the bible that REQUIRES Him to be timeless.
Exactly, and I don't think you'll find anything giving you a sense that REQUIRES Him to pass through time only on a linear basis.
quote:
He can certainly know everything He needs to know about the future by determining it to be this way or that. Thus we can securely place our trust in Him in regards to anything He says will happen.
Amen!
Edited by - allryledup on 05/10/2002 2:08:37 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/10/2002 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
See, that's the problem. From a human experience, yes I agree. But from God's position why couldn't that be true?
I follow ya RJ. I guess I'd say one has to decide up front whether not to permit logical contradictions in God's case. Nobody seems to balk at the claim that there's no such thing (even for God) of a married bachelor or a square circle. That an absolutely "atemporal" being would genuinely experience the flow of time is the same kind of animal to me.
But you're right. The whole discussion about time only has importance with regard to the larger question of whether or not God is immutable in the classical sense. Hmmm.
Lights out. It's 10:30 PM here!
Tom
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allryledup
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/10/2002 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Nobody seems to balk at the claim that there's no such thing (even for God) of a married bachelor or a square circle. That an absolutely "atemporal" being would genuinely experience the flow of time is the same kind of animal to me.
Wow, I see no connection between contemplating options of God's position in time (which you know what I think about trying grasping that) and those other examples. Maybe it's how our minds are wired - or their lack of wiring
Blessings,
R.J.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/10/2002 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | RJ: Maybe it's how our minds are wired - or their lack of wiring
Tom: Some of us are 110 and others are 220.
Tom
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/10/2002 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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Nobody seems to balk at the claim that there's no such thing (even for God) of a married bachelor or a square circle. That an absolutely "atemporal" being would genuinely experience the flow of time is the same kind of animal to me.
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I'd be a fool if I thought for a minute that I could completely grasp God!
But I think, Tom, that I agree with R.J.
And here is a key, I think, to parsing it out a bit:
When a new ager says that we are "God within", this is an entirely different meaning than the Church understanding. To them we are part of God in essence (pantheism) rather than creatures who share in God's Energies by His Grace and Design. (panentheism).
- panentheism === creatures share in God's Energies by His Grace and Design. === ORTHODOXY!
- pantheism === we are part of God in essence === HERESY!
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1179&FORUM_ID=16&CAT_ID=5&Topic_Title=%22PANENTHEISM%22++vs++%22PANTHEISM%22&Forum_Title=Theological+Q%26A
Tom, I'm afraid that when we tend to forbid God being both "absolutely 'atemporal'" AND "genuinely experience the flow of time" we ERE.
God CHOSE to participate. God ACTS in creation and inso to act IN time. Then, mega-greater, God entered time personally.
Like I say above, I'd be a fool to assume that I can empathize with God. But I was thinking about this topic in traffic today. The part that is easier for me at the moment, to think about, is MATTER. While time is no less corrupt by the fall than matter is, it is easier for me to deceive myself into thinking that matter is reliable (science classes taught preservation of mass...). Time is so obviously fleeting as my beard grays and my cholesterol rises! Fallen-time stinks! (And Christ died to bring death to death; and to redeem time.) So, matter, in my bent mind, seems reliable. I'm material. (As I make myself into a god in my own mind, and imagine that matter is all I am, and that therefore I shall share the imortality of my molicules--which shall pass away--...) god is not material. But God created matter, and continues to sustain it--for it can not do so for itself. And God the Creator/Word BECAME matter too.
I think that we have to allow BOTH, Tom, or else we risk atheism, or something else strange.
The kind of panentheism where creatures share in God's Energies by His Grace and Design is biblical.
I wonder whether it demands both.
- PoW
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