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|  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/10/2002 10:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | We discussed eschatology a bit here and there. On one side you have Jesus saying God knows (present tense) the day and hour Jesus will return. On the other you have Peter telling believers that the holiness of their lives "speeds the day," that we impact the timetable.
Options:
1) Jesus is to be understood as claiming that God knew (when Jesus utters this) exactly when Jesus will return...day and hour. And Peter is to be understood that WE genuinely impact the timetable. We really DO speed the coming (or delay it) by our lives. This presents US with a contradiction. We should bow to the Word of God (not pagan philosophy) and simply affirm what the Bible teaches even though we don't understand how it could be true.
2) Jesus is to be understood as #1 above but Peter is to be interpreted as saying somehow that we do NOT genuinely impact the timetable. No contradiction. The date is set.
3) Peter is to be understood as #1 above but Jesus is to be interpreted as saying something OTHER than "God now knows the exact day and hour of my return." No contradiction. The date is not set.
Thoughts?
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  gguskid Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 32 | Posted 12/10/2002 10:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Your question is not new, at least to me. In a couple of talks with my sr. pastor—even the few I have had were a great risk for me—I posited the OV with the perspective that at some point both the OV and Classical Theism (including thinking from Calvin, Arminius, Luther etc.), need to leave the issue of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility at the alter and walk away as brothers in Christ.
As one who tends toward OT, I readily proclaim God’s sovereignty and accept my human responsibility (though this may seem easier for an OVT than A Calvinist), the Calvinist does no less(though it seems a strain to many). Are these issues irreconcilable—as I think your illustration draws out—or can we bow before the Word of God and affirm its teaching though we may not understand completely how it is true.
Perhaps I’m a simpleton. I apply an OV conviction in my life with the understanding that A) God is the Sovereign and B) I am responsible to my Sovereign and continually pray that He would continue to reveal His will by His Holy Word and make of me the servant that He desires me to be.
Until That Time…
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/10/2002 11:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom, I'm not going to try to provide the "right" answer. But I am going to pose a problem.
You know -- I think -- that heaven and hell are not literal confined places. Then why should we ONLY look at Peter's comment in terms of linear time, or finitely passing time. He speaks, after all, of the coming-to-be-now of "that" time. Just as the kingdom of God is spoken of by Christ as BOTH "to be" and "now among you" ("coming and has now come"), so too might the then/now be hastened "into being" in an aspect that can not be measured by linear passage of time.
Therefore, I don't think that you can meaningfully compare Peter's comment with Christ's. The FINALITY of the fact that the "Father knows" is one thing. But Peter probably was speaking of the qualitative fact of "bringing in the kingdom" (as Marty Haugen's contemporary song goes).
What do you think?
NOTICE ESPECIALLY THE LANGUAGE IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN!!!
quote: Matthew 3:2 ...and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Matthew 6:10 ...your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (some liturgical versions say "They Holy Spirit come...")
Matthew 6:33 ...But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 10:7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'
Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
quote: John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
What do you think?
Alfred
Edited by - fred on 12/10/2002 4:12:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  gguskid Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 32 | Posted 12/10/2002 11:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | Perhaps you were looking for comments directly relating to the situation you posed. If so, my mistake.
I was looking at the principle of the matter, the apparent contradiction that we are unable to reconcile 2 very different and opposite statements yet remain accepting of the truth within both.
I suppose that is why I took up the ultimate paradox—more so as from JI Packer—antinomy RE: sovereignty and resposibility. How the two instances you posed are to be reconciled, I suppose, does remain the ultimate question. From option #3 I would reconcile it thusly: God the Father has fixed in His mind the exact time by which He has determined Christ would return (this time may be dependant upon human events, i.e. when all living souls have heard the gospel of good news), so that in Peter’s case the reality of the “tipping point” for God implementing His decree for the return of Christ would be fulfilled through the human purveyance of the divine message of God’s grace and the acquired sate of holiness amongst all believers.
Some thoughts.
Until That Time…
Edited by - gguskid on 12/10/2002 5:23:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/10/2002 12:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | I still like this article: "Time and the Signs of the End"
www.svots.edu/Events/Orthodox-Education-Day/Articles/1999-Fr-Paul-Tarazi.html
quote: The proclivity among Christians to think of, if not compute, the end of time(s) is rooted in a misconception of what scripture is all about. More specifically, the misunderstanding is linked to our assumption that, since an event takes place in time, we should be able to approach it chronologically, that is to say, assume that it has a yesterday, a today, and a tomorrow. We are so stuck in this mentality that we unwittingly use this terminology even when dealing with what we call eternity: we refer to it as being "before" creation and "after" the end of time. We do not seem to realize that according to the Bible time was created (Gen 1:3-5) and, consequently, we may only use the concept of "before" or "after" within the reality of time.
There is no need here to enter into the reasons behind our enslavement to a particular concept of time. Enslavement, nonetheless, it is. Indeed, we relate many of our daily experiences to a completely different kind of concept of time, and as my reader will momentarily realize, it is this way of dealing with time that rules our life more than the one I spoke of earlier. Take, for instance, a baseball game or a tennis match. Each happens within time, yet it is not bound by it. Time does not function as the decisive factor in the reality of these events, although they are indeed events within time. Recall the saying about a baseball game, that, "It ain’t over ‘til it’s over": a game or a match is defined by its content, not its duration.
The same applies to an event so central in and to American life: the court case or law suit. No one, I am sure, is going to deny its reality, and yet time in the court is eminently irrelevant, immaterial. Whether one is dealing with the individual session or the entire case, the case is determined by the content of the proceedings, not by when they take place or how long they last. An individual session starts when the judge enters and declares that it is open or resumed, and the same session is adjourned when the judge says so. The time elapsed between sessions can be a couple of hours, days, or even weeks or months. A given court case can go on for years, and yet it does not mean that the discussion lasted years; in fact, the actual time spent in court may amount to a limited number of hours. What this means is that time is not a factor in the definition of a court case. Even more: it is the case itself that becomes a factor in understanding the length or shortness of the "elapsed" time. It is the difficulty of the case that sometimes makes it require more "elapsed" time, i.e., time outside the sessions. A more complex case can take a much longer "elapsed" time than an easier one, but not necessarily more time in court sessions. And, ultimately, "down the road" of history, it is the content itself of the case sessions that gives value to the time linked with them.
. . .
Its a good read! | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/12/2002 2:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | David (right?): Perhaps I’m a simpleton. I apply an OV conviction in my life with the understanding that A) God is the Sovereign and B) I am responsible...
Tom: There's nothing irreconcilable about your (A) and (B) unless you understand (A) to mean God determines the acts for which I'm responsible, (B).
Fred, how about your thoughts on Jesus and Peter. I read your post. There's nothing there to help me. Jesus attributed to the Father knowledge of the "day and hour" of his return. Peter attributes the believers the dignity of influencing when Jesus returns. It may be sooner or later, depending on how we live. You see the point, do you not? Might we understand Jesus as attributing to the Father knowledge not of a day/hour which is determined from all eternity, but of something else?
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred
Edited by - TGB on 12/12/2002 07:45:56 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/12/2002 2:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Adam Clarke, by the way, argues that Mark 13.32 is not original. Ambrose said there existed Greek mss. of his day which did not have it. But it's far easier to account for a scribe's illiminating v. 32 than adding it. I take it as original.
Clarke also mentions that some argue that "oiden" ("know") here should be understood in a causative, declarative sense as the Hebrew Hiphel, as "proclaim" (= "make known"). This, they argue, seems to be what Paul has in mind in 1Cor. 2.2, "I determined to 'know' nothing among you but Jesus crucified."
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/12/2002 2:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | Plus, Mk. 13.32 doesn't appear in the Scripture index of CV's site. So it's never discussed.
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/12/2002 3:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Suppose I promise my 15 yr old daughter (at the time) that I'll buy her a car and let her drive on her own when I see that's she's ready to handle the responsibility. A year later she says, "Dad, when will I be given a car and allowed to drive on my own?" and I respond, "I know the right time." I don't mean that I have a date written on my calendar. I mean I know what I'm looking for (in her). So too, God the Father alone has the authority to determine the end. He knows (determines) "the day and the hour." Yet, as Peter says, the exact DATE is not written in stone.
The above mentioned fact that "know" can mean "proclaim" strengthens this perspective.
That's my take on it.
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/12/2002 11:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tom: Peter attributes the believers the dignity of influencing when Jesus returns. It may be sooner or later, depending on how we live. You see the point, do you not? Might we understand Jesus as attributing to the Father knowledge not of a day/hour which is determined from all eternity, but of something else?
Al: I'm coming to agree with you. Tom. Yes, "AGREE." And I read about the same as you posted in Evdokimov this afternoon.
Edited by - fred on 12/13/2002 06:34:19 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/12/2002 7:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Peter attributes the believers the dignity of influencing when Jesus returns. It may be sooner or later, depending on how we live. You see the point, do you not? Might we understand Jesus as attributing to the Father knowledge not of a day/hour which is determined from all eternity, but of something else?
Al: I'm coming to agree with you. Tom. Yes, "AGREE." And I read about the same as you posted in Evdokimov this afternoon.
Tom: For the first time in history, let it be recorded that Tom is ASKING Al to post Endokimov (or give me the website address where I can find what you're reading)!
Tom 
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/13/2002 1:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tom: For the first time in history, let it be recorded that Tom is ASKING Al to post Endokimov (or give me the website address where I can find what you're reading)!
"Use the right bait..."
Seriously, I'll try to scan it this afternoon after school. Evdokimov's first chapter is on Eschatology. And in typical Orthodox fashion several "different" issues are all handled together in related fashion. (As they should be.)
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/13/2002 1:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: I'll try to scan it this afternoon after school. Evdokimov's first chapter is on Eschatology. And in typical Orthodox fashion several "different" issues are all handled together in related fashion. (As they should be.)
Check out my preferences and send it to my compuserve if you want.
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/13/2002 2:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Suppose I promise my 15 yr old daughter (at the time) that I'll buy her a car and let her drive on her own when I see that's she's ready to handle the responsibility....
Good analogy I think. Thanks Doc. I'm teaching my eldest how to drive now and she's asking this very question!
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/13/2002 2:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tom: Check out my preferences and send it to my compuserve if you want.
Good idea. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/13/2002 2:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/14/2002 1:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tom: Peter attributes the believers the dignity of influencing when Jesus returns. It may be sooner or later, depending on how we live. You see the point, do you not? Might we understand Jesus as attributing to the Father knowledge not of a day/hour which is determined from all eternity, but of something else?
SAY MORE, TOM! | | Back to Top | | |
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