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Perfection" generally refers to moral character, not state change. There's no reason a morally perfect Being cannot have new experiences.

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Tom:

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God is philosophically not just a morally perfect being, but THE MOST PERFECT being of any sort, in all respects. If God were less than perfect in any aspect of his nature, it would be possible to imagine a God more perfect than He. Therefore, if God were ignorant of some experience, he would not be as supreme of a being as a God who already had knowledge of the same experience. Since the common understanding of the monotheistic God is that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, "ultimate" and "supreme", then I would claim that a change of mindstate for God would either be irrelevant or impossible. If God's mind went from point A to point B, i.e. he came to a decision, then his mind at point A must have been either inferior or equivalent to his mind at point B. If his mind was equivalent at points A and B, then God's thought was inconsequential and did not correspond to a "thought process" in the sense that we understand it. If A is inferior to B then God improved himself by changing his mind-- an impossibility for a God who is eternally perfect.

I do not believe that "morally perfect being" is commonly understood as synonymous with "God". I can conceive of a morally perfect being who did not, for instance, create the universe.

A final argument against a thinking anthropomorphic God is this: God created the universe, which includes time. If God created time, then he must exist "outside" of time. A common visualization is to imagine God as a super-dimensional being who looks "down" upon our universe and sees it in its entirety - past, present, and future - all at once. He would be seeing time as a length-like dimension. Yet thought, as we understand it, is a time-bound phenomenon. It is impossible to think without time passing... thought is a process of change, and change only exists as a function of time. Yet, if all time is simultaneous to God, then all of his thoughts must also be "simultaneous" and thus unchanging. As a result, it would be impossible for such a deity to "change his mind".

If you consider the entire universe and all of its laws to *define* God, and his mindset, then the evolution of the universe can be seen as the natural working of the mind of God, which appears to be changing to we time-confined souls. This is a viewpoint I can reconcile with Buddhist and Taoist understanding of existence, but it seems to be incompatible with an anthropomorphic view of God.

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Edited by - Laika on 07/15/2003 07:06:38 AM

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Also, explain to me how God told time before there was a sun and earth. It 's quite obvious that however he did that- it is not something that we can comprehend. He couldn't have said "It's half past 8." B/c that would be nonsensical if not within the framework of human time- which of course is relative to the speed of light.

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"0 King of glory. . .through thine ineffable and immeasurable love of man, without change or alteration, thou didst become man and didst take the name of our High Priest. . .for thou art Master of all. Thou alone, 0 Lord our God, art Master over those in heaven and on earth" (Liturgy of St. Basil)

and

...that God and man were united in the one Jesus Christ, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation" (definition of Chalcedon)

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With regard to monophysitism, the Council which met at Chalcedon (451), insisted that the one Christ is not only from two natures, but that He remains in two natures -- He is both God and man, consubstantial with God and consubstantial with us -- "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." Whilst Chalcedon defined the boundaries of acceptable theology, it did not specify how this could be understood, and so in the following centuries theologians struggled to explain this paradoxical assertion. The initial supporters of Chalcedon tended to be of a Nestorianizing persuasion (heightening the so-called monophysites' dissatisfaction with the Council): wanting to maintain the impassibility of God, they still refused to accept that God had indeed suffered and died. Yet the solution was to hand within the Chalcedonian definition, as later theologians realized: the one Son of God, Jesus Christ, whilst remaining impassible in His divine nature, nevertheless does genuinely suffer, die, and rise again, in His human nature; and as Jesus Christ is Himself the Son of God, true God, it is God Himself who is crucified, and so works our salvation.

This affirmation is brought out well by the hymnography of the Orthodox Church, especially that for Holy Friday. For instance:

Today, He who hung the earth upon the waters is hung upon the Cross.

He who clothes Himself in light as in a garment stood naked at the judgement.

He who is the King of the angels is arrayed in a crown of thorns.

He who wraps the heavens in clouds is wrapped in the purple of mockery.

It is also worth noting the emphasis, in this hymn, on "today" -- characteristic of Byzantine hymnography -- today, the One who hung the earth upon the water is hung on the Cross. Liturgical celebrations of historical events are not understood simply as the commemoration of events that happened in the distant past, which we now simply remember. Rather, if our celebration of the act by which Christ has saved the whole human race -- from its beginning to its end -- if this it is to be more than a simple memorial, we must also participate in that salvific activity of God: this activity (energeia) must be present to us as well.

But the key affirmation of this hymn is that the suffering of Christ on the Cross is the suffering of God Himself. The Christ who is the King of the Universe, the Pantokrator or Almighty, is the crucified One.

Following the lines of the Gospel of John, where the moment of lifting up on the Cross is the moment of exaltation (cf Jn 3:13-14; 12:27-36), Byzantine iconography often replaces the words nailed to the cross, "The King of the Jews" with the words "The King of Glory"; and similarly it inscribes Christ's halo with a cross, even when He is depicted as a child with His mother, or as walking in Eden with Adam and Eve.

In its paradoxical manner, this hymn further emphasises that the One on the Cross is the One by whom all things are created. Although born only recently from the Virgin, He was operative in creation, He appeared to Abraham, spoke with Moses from the burning bush, led His people through the Red Sea and the wilderness, and appeared to the Prophets, chastising His people and preparing them for His coming.

He is the One disseminated, in this way, in Scripture in its types and prophecies -- the treasure buried in a field -- the Word of God brought to light by the Cross, to use Irenaeus' imagery we saw earlier.

http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Behr/Articles/Orthodoxy.html

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5046 teleiov teleios tel’-i-os

from 5056; TDNT-8:67,1161; adj

AV-perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

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What matters now is God and we are here. We relate. And that requires time. . .providence, guidance, prophecy, prayer. . .!!!

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Because a person is an atheist, he can't recognize any truth? Do you always make blanket indictments based on your prejudice?

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He rejects that God is personal because of his beliefs. He said so himself, 'here's why I don't believe in a personal god', then he presented your eternal now impersonal god.

That's truth? God isn't personal?

I believe atheists know some truth. But we're talking about the truth about God, I'm not sure I'd trust their knowledge on that issue. Don't you agree?

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And then what you say about God having "thoughts" before creation - that supports my position that God created time. He had thoughts before the sun and earth, and , thus, the human concept of time, were created. So he is outside time.

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