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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Maybe we're talking about different gods here?
Maybe you're not reading my posts closely.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God "interacts with us in time", what is He doing otherwise?
Well, for one thing, the Bible reveals that the very universe is upheld by the word of His power. I never said all that God is doing is interacting with us. I fail to see how the new heavens and new earth relate at all to the question, though.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Earp - Or maybe you're not explaining yourself clearly and accurately. I'm not a "new Christian"- I've studied theology a lot over the years and am at a loss about your position.
Or maybe I forgot to put my glasses on. Yeah, that must be it. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I think Paul's question is a good one. Those other entities apparently exist outside of our galaxy, and thus outside of our space-time continuum.
What about prayer? At any given second, there are probably literally billions of prayers being offered up to God. If it literally took him "time" to listen and reply to those prayers - that would be impossible for him to do. If he's trapped inside time - he is limited in the same way we are. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi RD,
If you would take the time to actually read my post near the top of this page, you will see where I responded to Paul's accusation that the Open view requires that God is "trapped" or "restrained" in time.
As to the multitudes of prayers being offered up continually, again, it is only on the presumption that God's intelligence and perceptive ability is somehow limited that we must deny that He can handle all these prayers at once. If a computer can handle thousands of computations per second, how much more can God handle?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | RD,
You are increasing my perception of attorneys.  I thought I was very plain in presenting those things that, of necessity, must exist outside of "time" as we know it. They would certainly be outside Einstein's concept of time.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think Paul's question is a good one. Those other entities apparently exist outside of our galaxy, and thus outside of our space-time continuum.
Actually, the Bible depicts the new heavens and new earth as future. Therefore it would not be accurate to say this is "outside our space-time continuum."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/15/2003 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
I guess you would need to answer this also, where did Jesus go to prepare a place, since the mansions/rooms/dwelling places "are", not "shall be". John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John,
I guess you would need to answer this also, where did Jesus go to prepare a place, since the mansions/rooms/dwelling places "are", not "shall be". John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus went to heaven, where "He who was, and is and is to come" (thus denoting duration) is continually worshiped.
Edited by - John Earp on 07/15/2003 11:12:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/15/2003 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | PoW-
Boy are we WAY off of counterfactuals now!
You gave me at least fifty things to “decide for myself” AND you gave us no banner for Paul. I answered your funny question about my senility vs flatulence. Now I want my friggin banner for Paul!
I don’t maintain your distinction between God’s “essence” and “energies.” It’s that simple. I maintain a distinction, yes, but differently than you. We both agree that all we humans have of God is what God reveals, and that what he reveals is his attributes, or “energies,” his acts toward us. We don’t get God’s “essence” in revelation or in relating to him. The “stuff” God is made of (forgive the crudeness) is not available to us. We don’t see God from the inside out the way God sees himself. We don’t know God the way God knows himself. No direct access to God’s essence. This is all good and fine. But I'd say the same thing about relating to and knowing other human beings.
We’re I differ is that I think we CAN safely conclude some things ABOUT God’s essence, that is, “what God really is,” on the basis of his energies, whereas you insist this is impossible, and perhaps heretical.
The essence/energies distinction is no different really from the same thing we have to live with in relating to other human persons. We only ever have each other’s “energies,” actions, and attributes to deal with, experience, and relate to. We don’t have access to each other’s “essences.” So in my view we aren’t saying something that’s uniquely true of God when we say we can’t know God’s essence. But we do not on this account have to deny that we know what other people “really are,” what they are “in and of themselves.” This is because attributes faithfully describe what they attribute. Energies point to or reflect their source. Something CAN be known about who and what Hitler “really is” on the basis of his attributes, actions, and energies. Same is true of other humans. Yes, humans can fake it. They can trick us, acting so as to mislead us in our conclusions about who and what they really are. But this only happen because the movement from energies to essence is accepted and practiced. But we don’t face this danger with God. When God reveals himself, say, dying on the Cross for us, we have every right to believe that this is the KIND of God God really is. Love is what he’s like on the inside. I’m not claiming to have access to the “stuff” of God anymore than I’m claiming to have access to the “stuff” of Hitler, Mother Theresa, or my wife. I’m claiming instead that attributes (noun) attribute (verb) their owners. If we may conclude nothing about God on the basis of his attributes, then they are not “God’s” attributes.
So, I’d probably disagree with the liturgies you post. In incarnating, Christ experiences a change. But a change in relations and mode of existence, not in substance or essence (whatever divine substance is, I don’t know) or character. I can say that the divine and human are united “without change” in the person of Jesus. The divine remains “divine” and the human remains “human.” Neither becomes other than what its kind-essence (to use a phrase from Thomas Morris) requires. But the sort of change disallowed in this union is not the sort of change I claim IS allowable, and which change is, in my view, a good thing, the sort of change that makes the incarnation even possible. Unless one views all change as a change in essential nature, there’s no reason to think God cannot experience change as God. God remains unchanging God in essence, nature, character, and attributes (loving, compassionate, holy, etc.) but experiences change in states of mind, emotion, and in relations.
So…where’s my banner for Paul?
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 07/15/2003 11:38:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/15/2003 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
Which "heaven"? Was it the "third heaven" that Paul was caught up into? Or, is it here in the "tabernacle of God"? Rev. 21.2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Have you ever noticed anything in heaven besides a throne? Any dwelling places? Rev.7.15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John,
Which "heaven"?
I think your question is more properly a question of biblical interpretation rather than a question about the nature of reality. The Bible seems clear to me that Jesus, at his ascension, entered "the tabernacle pitched in the heavens," offered his own blood as propitiation for the sins of mankind in the Holy Place of Heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 9:11 ¶ But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Heb 9:11 ¶ But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a {mere} copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Heb 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
(NASB, which places OT citations in allcaps - I am not shouting)
Edited by - John Earp on 07/16/2003 12:03:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/15/2003 7:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
I find it to be amazing that you have such an incomplete relationship with your wife. "We don’t have access to each other’s “essences.” If this is the case, Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh., then there should be no problem in knowing her "essense".
John,
Thank you for confirming there isn't anything in heaven other than a throne. Therefore, the verse I quoted in John is referring to the New Jerusalem. Since Jesus is sitting at the present time, not "preparing", the place must already be prepared and you can't tell me where it is. For that matter, you can't tell me where the lake of fire/everlasting fire is either and it is already "prepared" (past tense) for the devil and his angels before the new earth appears. Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. It already exists, but there isn't anyplace for it to be that won't be destroyed, but it isn't to be destroyed.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John,
Thank you for confirming there isn't anything in heaven other than a throne.
?????????
And you CAN tell us where heaven and hell are?
In any case, the question of the precise location of heaven and of hell has no bearing on the question of time as sequence, whether or not God experiences sequence, and so forth. It is only speculative, but I tend to view heaven and hell as "the spirit realm," which would be another dimension that also can break into our own at times.
Edited by - John Earp on 07/16/2003 12:11:37 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/15/2003 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
I'm trying to get you to see that no one knows what is outside of our "time" or dimension. It is unknowable other than it exists already. Where is "hell"? I know where it will be, Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. but I don't know where it is now. Will there be a "sequence of events"/time in the lake of fire? I doubt it!
"another dimension that also can break into our own at times.", but what is it doing if it isn't "at times"? Maybe "other than time" or outside of time?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/15/2003 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John,
I'm trying to get you to see that no one knows what is outside of our "time" or dimension. It is unknowable other than it exists already. Where is "hell"? I know where it will be, Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And so we see that it is true what I said, that your question pertains to biblical fact, and not metaphysical reality.
quote:
but I don't know where it is now. Will there be a "sequence of events"/time in the lake of fire? I doubt it!
Why would Revelation say, "the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever" if sequence did not exist there?
quote:
"another dimension that also can break into our own at times.", but what is it doing if it isn't "at times"? Maybe "other than time" or outside of time?
I believe Dr. Boyd has put forth the idea that God, as the omnipresent, perfect observer, has full knowledge of all of reality as it exists now (as well as the future as both certain and possible and the past as definite and irreversible). As such, even if heaven and hell are in fact separate dimensions from the one we live in, God would still by definition have perfect knowledge of all sequences occuring in that dimension as well.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/16/2003 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | anewbeginning
quote:
quote:
What if our light came from glowing dirt? Would my arm feel pain before I hit it?
Maybe not your arm,
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1877
But your mind may.
Thanks for the link. I've experienced something akin to this. It seems similar to muscle memory, call it nerve memory. Your brain anticipates the coming event and triggers a sensation before the event. I'll bet the first time you ever walked, you didn't experience the sensation of the foot striking the ground before it actually did. Like muscle memory, nerve memory is acquired over repetition.
My experience had to do with anticipating Mountain Dew during an extremely dull Numerical Analysis class.
Now sit in your car and just think about starting it. Did it start? It didn't?
That's because the event (the car starting) needs the cause (you turning the key).
Edited by - Laika on 07/16/2003 08:34:49 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/16/2003 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul: Tom, I find it to be amazing that you have such an incomplete relationship with your wife. "We don’t have access to each other’s “essences.” If this is the case, Genesis 2:24...then there should be no problem in knowing her "essense".
Tom: A person's flesh is not their essence. Neither does sexual intimacy make my essence available to my wife. I'll let PoW elaborate.
PoW?
Edited by - TGB on 07/16/2003 12:59:50 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/16/2003 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
"The two shall be one flesh" encompasses much more than sexual intimacy. You are just taking too narrow of a view and it needs to be expanded.
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anewbeginning
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 7/16/2003 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Laika:
You really crack me up. Your "Timeless God's cake recipe" was hillarious! Very clever.
Back to cause and effect, we all agree effects require causes, o.k.
Why must the cause precede the effect? Could you not imagine it any other way? If I could demonstrate backwards causation to you, would you abandon your "Universal Unidirectional God Imprisoning Sequentiality"?
Edited by - anewbeginning on 07/16/2003 10:11:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/16/2003 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I was sitting on my IH 254 tractor last week and thought about making the engine stop, since I was through tilling. Guess what? It didn't stop! So, I turned the key off and guess what? It still didn't stop! I guess cause doesn't always have an effect.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/16/2003 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Laika,
I was sitting on my IH 254 tractor last week and thought about making the engine stop, since I was through tilling. Guess what? It didn't stop! So, I turned the key off and guess what? It still didn't stop! I guess cause doesn't always have an effect.
LOL. Barring a miracle (a suspension of natural law) there was a cause (reason why your tractor kept running). Probably something electrical or perhaps bad gas.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tom
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| Posted 7/16/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/16/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | John and Tom,
Obviously if you two had any inkling you would know an IH 254 is diesel, so it doesn't use "gas". Tom, you are excused, since they don't use tractors in the desert. John should have read my article a little closer.
Actually, the ignition switch has failed to shut off the fuel selenoid, which causes the diesel to starve for fuel and thus the engine stops. It was easily remedied by throttling back, shifting to a high gear, placing foot on brake and releasing the clutch. Then disconnecting the battery. (taken from Tractors 101 by Paul5388)
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/16/2003 7:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: John and Tom, Obviously if you two had any inkling you would know an IH 254 is diesel, so it doesn't use "gas".
Tom: I wasn't talking about the tractor. I was talking about the driver.
Is this thread even going anywhere anymore?
Tom
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