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You didn't answer about where the reference to captivity is in Jer 26.3ff. I don't see it and I think there may be a preconceived idea that the "evil" has to be the captivity.

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It's interesting to look at Jeremiah 24, 25 and 26. They seem to be in reverse chronological order.

Jeremiah 24:1 "After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah"
Zedekiah is mentioned as being king later in Jeremiah 24.

Jeremiah 25:1 "The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah (that was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon)"

Jeremiah 26:1 "In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from the LORD, saying"

So, change the order to chronological and you get Jer 26-->Jer 25-->Jer 24.

The PERHAPS and MAY REPENT of Jeremiah 26 turns into the I WILLs of Jeremiah 25 and the punishment is actually carried out in Jeremiah 24.

Where is the captivity mentioned in Jeremiah 26 (the beginning of Jehoiakim's reign)? It's mentioned in Jeremiah 25, (the fourth year of Jehoiakim's reign) when God's chance for repentance is over

II Kings 46 shows this chronology as well:

(Jeremiah 26) Jehoiakim is king, God warns him and gives him a chance to repent, He uses conditional language (PERHAPS, MAY REPENT)

(Jeremiah 25) repentance time is over, God enacts the penalty mentioned as a possibility in Leviticus, Jehoiakim is carried off into exile, God uses determinative language (WILL)

(Jeremiah 24) Jehoiakim's son is also carried off into captivity, Zedekiah is mentioned as now being king






Edited by - Laika on 06/24/2003 12:15:16 PM

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I think you missed the point about the captivity. Jer 26.3ff refers to verses 3-6 and there is no mention of captivity in these verses. Of course, there also isn’t any mention of captivity in the whole 26th chapter.

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How do you desolate a city? Remove it's inhabitants for one.

II Kings 24

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1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant for three years; then he turned and rebelled against him.
2 The LORD sent against him bands of Chaldeans, bands of Arameans, bands of Moabites, and bands of Ammonites. So He sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD which He had spoken through His servants the prophets. {Jeremiah 26 AND 25 being part of this}
3 Surely at the command of the LORD it came upon Judah, to remove them from His sight because of the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he had done,
4 and also for the innocent blood which he shed, for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; and the LORD would not forgive.

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Shows both destruction of Judah and removal of the peoples.

II Chronicles 36:

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5 Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem; and he did evil in the sight of the LORD his God.
6 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against him and bound him with bronze chains to take him to Babylon.

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shows doing evil followed by captivity.

The captivity is also mentioned in Jeremiah chapter 25, the fourth year of Jehoiakim's reign, not the beginning of Jehoiakim's reign. Looks like God is giving Jehoiakim a chance.

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The “beginning” only has reference to the first part of his reign, not an account from day one.

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Maybe not day one, but certainly before the fourth year. Jehoiakim ruled only eleven years, the fourth year would have been 36% of the way through his reign, too advanced to be the beginning.

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Of course, the same introduction is made in Chapter 27.1 which reinforces that it is not counting from the very beginning.

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Jeremiah 27 is the beginning of Zedekiah's reign, not Jehoiakim's. How does that reinforce beginning not equalling beginning?
The custom combine crew I used to work for, when they told me to be up at the beginning of the day, I got up EARLY, not a third the way through the day.



Edited by - Laika on 06/25/2003 07:55:04 AM

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This is how I figure Jer 26.1 and Jer 27.1 are talking about something other than an account from day one and both are dealing with Jehoiakim. Jer 26.1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying, Jer 27.1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

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Jeremiah 27:1 "In the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying--"

What Bible version are you using? Here:
bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JER+27&language=english&version=NASB

Here's something on Zedekiah:
www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0853321.html

He was the third son of Josiah to be king.

You STILL haven't explained how beginning refers to a time that is after the fourth year which was 36% of the way through Jehoiakim's reign.

Jeremiah 24 also talks about Zedekiah, the king that succeeded Jehoiachin who succeeded Jehoiakim.

Jer 26 --------------> Jer 25 ------------------> Jer 24/Jer 27
warning to Jehoiakim   captivity for Jehoiakim   Zedekiah is king

chronologically, some of the prophetic books are mixed up, hence the necessity to understand the timestamps placed within the chapters




Edited by - Laika on 06/26/2003 09:06:10 AM

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But, in any case, I don't think this is relevant to the "maybe" of Jere. 26:3, for God specifies its about whether or not THE PEOPLE WOULD LISTEN.

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I am using the KJV that is available through the Onlinebible.net. The NASB I have, Lockman Foundation 1973, says in a marginal note on Jer 27.1, "Many mss. read, Jehoiakim". Are we to change the reading, like the NASB, just because the Arabic and Syriac versions read "Zedekiah"?

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So KJV has this chronology:
Jeremiah 24 Zedekiah is king
Jeremiah 25 Jehoiakim is king
Jeremiah 26 Jehoiakim is king
Jeremiah 27:1-11 Jehoiakim is king
Jeremiah 27:12-22 Zedekiah is king (second term?)

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The beginning can be anything up to 50% of the time of reign with the ending being anything more than 50% to the actual end. When one begins his reign at 25 years of age, wouldn't you expect there to be much more than 3-4 years or even 11 years in his total reign?

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He reigned eleven years:

II Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem.

II Chronicles 36:5 Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD his God.
6: Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters, to carry him to Babylon.

Are you saying that he reigned more than eleven years, that he reigned over Jerusalem while a captive in Babylon?

Now Jer 26 it is the beginning of his 11 year reign and in Jer 25 it is the fourth year of his reign. Why use fourth? Why differentiate that time from beginning? If scripture had only used beginning and ending, you could make a case, but because another time qualifier, fourth, being used, it narrows beginning down to... beginning.

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Can we say G.W. Bush is beginning his presidency if we expect him to be reelected?

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If someone said, "GW did 'a' in the beginning of his presidency" and someone else said, "GW did 'b' in the fourth year of his presidency", you would place 'b' chronologically before 'a'.

So how shall we begin this discussion?



Edited by - Laika on 06/27/2003 08:00:55 AM

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Jehoiakim

He whom Jehovah has set up, the second son of Josiah, and eighteenth king of Judah, which he ruled over for eleven years (B.C. 610-599) His original name was Eliakim (q.v.). On the death of his father his younger brother Jehoahaz (= Shallum,)#Jer 22:11 who favoured the Chaldeans against the Egyptians, was made king by the people; but the king of Egypt, Pharaoh-necho, invaded the land and deposed Jehoahaz #2Ki 23:33,34 Jer 22:10-12 setting Eliakim on the throne in his stead, and changing his name to Jehoiakim. After this the king of Egypt took no part in Jewish politics, having been defeated by the Chaldeans at Carchemish #2Ki 24:7 Jer 46:2 Palestine was now invaded and conquered by Nebuchadnezzar. Jehoiakim was taken prisoner and carried captive to Babylon #2Ch 36:6,7 It was at this time that Daniel also and his three companions were taken captive to Babylon #Da 1:1,2 Nebuchadnezzar reinstated Jehoiakim on his throne, but treated him as a vassal king. In the year after this, Jeremiah caused his prophecies to be read by Baruch in the court of the temple. Jehoiakim, hearing of this, had them also read in the royal palace before himself. The words displeased him, and taking the roll from the hands of Baruch he cut it in pieces and threw it into the fire #Jer 36:23 During his disastrous reign there was a return to the old idolatry and corruption of the days of Manasseh. After three years of subjection to Babylon, Jehoiakim withheld his tribute and threw off the yoke #2Ki 24:1 hoping to make himself independent. Nebuchadnezzar sent bands of Chaldeans, Syrians, and Ammonites #2Ki 24:2 to chastise his rebellious vassal. They cruelly harassed the whole country (comp.) #Jer 49:1-6 The king came to a violent death, and his body having been thrown over the wall of Jerusalem, to convince the beseieging army that he was dead, after having been dragged away, was buried beyond the gates of Jerusalem "with the burial of an ass, " B.C. 599 #Jer 22:18,19 36:30 Nebuchadnezzar placed his son Jehoiachin on the throne, wishing still to retain the kingdom of Judah as tributary to him.

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MAYBE.

Its not just about that. Its not about any one thing in issolation.