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a2rutled
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 22

Posted 6/18/2003 10:13 AM (GMT -6)

I have been struggling with, what seems to be, a mass of Biblical evidence not only against the openess view of God, but against Arminianism in general. As a believer I want to be true to the Word, I don't want to slide away from difficult passages and be one of those fools who just won't accept defeat. I want to know who my God is. Is it the God of 7-point Calvinism (i.e. John Piper's God)? Is that the God of the Bible? I WANT TO KNOW. I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH! Of course, as we all know, the God of Piper is SOVEREIGN over ALL things. Not only is He IN CONTROL of all things, but He is the CAUSE of all things. Piper's God is like a puppet master. Piper does not shy away from denying free will, but instead puts forth the claim that God is in control of all human actions. More than that, it makes God ultimately responsible for evil, and the ultimate reason that people go to hell and burn for eternity (if you agree with eternal punishment which seems to be the more biblical notion). However, lets save the eternal punishment discussion for another podt, I am most concerned with some of the Bible passages that I find extremely hard to bypass. Here is a list of the most pressing scriptures:

For who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?
Lamentations 3:37

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Romans 11:36

From His dwelling place He watches all who live on the earth- He who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
Psalm 33:14-15

For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Jeremiah 10:30

In His heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines His steps.
Proverbs 16:9

I suppose the Lamentations quote is the most difficult for me to swallow. It seems so explicit, who can even speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? It seems to be, quite possibly, the clearest passage in the whole bible on who's really in charge. Certainly, if nothing can happen apart from the decree of the Lord, where does that leave human freedom? Of course, the other passages seem no less challenging: what did Paul mean when he wrote "all things" in Romans 11:36? Why does Psalm 33:14-15 seem to be saying that God forms the hearts of us all? These passages are troubling me, do you have any comments?

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/18/2003 1:28 PM (GMT -6)

Hi A2rutled,

First, we must keep in mind that there is not a doctrinal system that is absolutely free of difficult texts to reconcile. That said, I would like to take a stab at the verses you posted.

For who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?
Lamentations 3:37

The OV explicitly and emphatically agrees with the above verse. That is, the OV affirms that in Scripture, this sort of thing is clear evidence of God's omnipotence, not his omniscience.

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Romans 11:36

I (of course) could be wrong, but in context Paul is praising God for his wonderful grace in including the Gentiles in his covenant, the wonder of his mercy, and so forth. It seems like it is reading too much into this verse to think it teaches determinism. Rather, it sounds very much to me like a doxology in which Paul is basically saying, "all things are to the glory of God."

From His dwelling place He watches all who live on the earth- He who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
Psalm 33:14-15

The OV has never denied God's omniscience in the sense spoken of in the above verse (i.e., present-tense knowledge of all things).

For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

In context, this verse seems to teach synergism, not monergism; i.e., "work our your salvation with fear and trembling...for it is God who works in you..."

I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Jeremiah 10:30

The OV does not deny that we all need God to direct our way, and that if we depend on ourselves, we will fail miserably. It seems to me that the verse following the above makes it clear that Jeremiah was praying for divine direction in v.30:

Jer 10:24 Correct me, O LORD, but with justice; Not with Your anger, or You will bring me to nothing.

In His heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines His steps.
Proverbs 16:9

This it seems to me is saying basically the same thing as the Jeremiah quote. Also, poetic passages (especially Proverbs) tends to quite often use extreme hyperbole to make a point. I believe other translations say, "the Lord directs his steps." In any case, it sounds to me like the writer is simply reflecting on the fruitlessness of trying to make plans without God, not "everything that ever happens God causes."

A2

I suppose the Lamentations quote is the most difficult for me to swallow. It seems so explicit, who can even speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? It seems to be, quite possibly, the clearest passage in the whole bible on who's really in charge. Certainly, if nothing can happen apart from the decree of the Lord, where does that leave human freedom?

John

I think we are reading too much into the Lamentations quote if we truly think it means *everything* happens as a direct result of God's will. It seems to me that this only applies to prophecies that come true--God did them. He inspired the prophet and then made sure it happened, even by using unilateral control if necessary.

God forms the hearts of us all does not mean God determines the moral choices of all. If we understand heart to mean basically "center of our being," or "executive faculty," there does not seem to be a problem.

Hopefully some others will chime in. The board's activity has been a bit slow for the past few weeks. Dr. Boyd has been very busy, not able to join in much, and is I think in Ireland right now teaching at a conference. Anyway, glad to have you with us. God bless you in your continued search for truth. Welcome to CVM!

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/18/2003 6:32:12 PM

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 6/18/2003 1:38 PM (GMT -6)

Great questions, Airin! I'll take a stab at some of the verses you mention.

First, here's Lamentations 3:37-38:
37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Question, what is the "it" that God decrees in vs. 37? I don't think it is referring to "speak", as though no one could say any word other than what God decrees they say. Rather, in light of verse 38, it seems to refer to "speak AND have it happen". In other words, this passage is talking about the power to bring things about simply by speaking it. We don't have that power. God does. Note, vs. 38 only says that God can and sometimes does bring about both calamities and good things. It does not say that ALL calamities are brought about through the efficacy of God's sovereign decree.

Romans 11:33-36:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

I don't see how one gets meticulous sovereignty out of vs. 36. It seems to be saying simply that all things that exist were created by God and for God (cf. John 1:3). He is the Alpha and Omega. Open theists agree with that. To read "all things" as including even our choices seems to me to read more into the passage than the context warrants.

Psalm 33:13-15:
13 From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind;
14 from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth--
15 he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.

Vss. 13-14 set the context. God looking down from heaven seeing all that it taking place. This is taking about God exhaustive knowledge of the PRESENT. It does not imply that the FUTURE is fixed by God's eternal decree. God's "forming the hearts of all" seems to me to say nothing more than that he has created us.

Phillipians 2:12-13:
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

This passage does not teach theological determinism. In fact, it implies that we have the responsibility to "work out" (vs. 12) what God "works in" (vs. 13). There is no suggestion that we have no free will in the interaction between us and God. First, what God works in may be general and not specific in nature--e.g., God expects us to give to the needs of the Church, but the specifics of how much we give (10%? 15%? more?) and to whom we give (church A, church B, missionary C, etc.) are up to us. Second, the passage does not imply that we HAVE to work out what God works in. The charge in vs. 12 seems to imply just the opposite--we could, if we so choose, bury the gifts, talents, and opportunities God gives us.

Jeremiah 10:23 (Your citation says 10:30, but there is no such verse):
(NIV) 23 I know, O LORD , that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
(NASV) 23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

There seems to be some difference in translation here, but I don't see how theological determinism follows. In the NIV version we own our lives to God. He is our Creator. And thus He has the prerogative to tell us how to live. In the NASV version thing's are less clear. In what sense is a man's way "not in himself"? And what does it mean that it is not "in" a man to direct his steps? Until these notions are clarified it seems prudent not to draw far reaching theological conclusions from this passage.

Proverbs 16:9:
9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

This verse does not say that ALL of our steps are determined by God. Notice that it says "a" man. We are talking about a case where a particular individual has made some plans and God, for whatever reason, upsets those plans. In other words, we can plan as we may, but God reserves the sovereign right to upset our plans for his our purposes, should he need to.

Well, that's my two cents. Hope that helps, Airin.

Alan

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 6/18/2003 2:59 PM (GMT -6)

In studying 1 Corinthians this week, I reflected on the following verses.

1 Cor. 1:9 "God WHO HAS CALLED YOU into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ the Lord, is faithful."
1 Cor. 1:1 "Brothers, think of what you were WHEN YOU WERE CALLED."
Ch. 1, vs. 27-29 "God chose the foolish... God chose the weak... God chose the lowly..." (GOD chose). (God CHOSE).
1 Cor. 3: 7 "So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but ONLY God, who MAKES things grow."
1 Cor. 5:18 Paul said this: "But I will come to you very soon, IF THE LORD IS WILLING." (He seems to indicate that it is ultimately not his plan that will prevail, but the Lord's).

Is the OV understanding of free will compatible with God calling someone to a specific "lot" in life? Or even with Paul praying "if the Lord is willing"? We are encouraged in 1 Cor. also to remain in the place God has "called" us to.

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 6/18/2003 3:37 PM (GMT -6)

I have struggled with this verse also, Phil. 1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" According to OV, if God carries it and began it, where did my free will come in? Also this verse, Phil. 1:29 "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to SUFFER for him." Phil 2:13 also does not seem to fit with OV. 1 Thess 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you"

I also struggle with understanding how the OV explains God's oath to Abraham that was not fulfilled for years and years. Hebrews 11: 9 "By faith Abraham when called to go to a place he would LATER receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going." If Abraham believed that God did not know the future, where then would he put his faith? Along the lines of faith, how can we be assured that satan will be defeated if the future is open and unknown even to God? These are some questions that literally besieged me when I opened myself to the OV.

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/18/2003 4:03 PM (GMT -6)

Hang in there, Christian. Just hang in there.
That you care to even search it out is worth all the gold in the world. THAT, my good brother, is what puts the smile on God's face; not that you've made up your mind, believe one way or the other, or don't yet believe anything. It is that you care about Him enough to search for Him. You'll find Him, but not without the struggles that go with finding Him (in this issue, at least). It's what makes us strong, fortified Christians, Christian!

For fighting the GOOD fight, keeping the faith, and finishing the course.

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/18/2003 6:02 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

In studying 1 Corinthians this week, I reflected on the following verses.

1 Cor. 1:9 "God WHO HAS CALLED YOU into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ the Lord, is faithful."
1 Cor. 1:1 "Brothers, think of what you were WHEN YOU WERE CALLED."
Ch. 1, vs. 27-29 "God chose the foolish... God chose the weak... God chose the lowly..." (GOD chose). (God CHOSE).
1 Cor. 3: 7 "So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but ONLY God, who MAKES things grow."
1 Cor. 5:18 Paul said this: "But I will come to you very soon, IF THE LORD IS WILLING." (He seems to indicate that it is ultimately not his plan that will prevail, but the Lord's).

Is the OV understanding of free will compatible with God calling someone to a specific "lot" in life? Or even with Paul praying "if the Lord is willing"? We are encouraged in 1 Cor. also to remain in the place God has "called" us to.

Hi Christian,

I don't see a problem with God calling us and us being able to listen and obey or refuse. I also don't see a problem with saying, "if the Lord is willing," when speaking of what we intend to do.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/18/2003 6:13 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

I have struggled with this verse also, Phil. 1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" According to OV, if God carries it and began it, where did my free will come in?

Open View theologians have all strongly emphasized God's absolute faithfulness and trustworthiness. Just because God promises to do his part (being faithful to complete the work in us) does not mean we have no part to play. Scripture is replete with examples of us being exhorted to do our part.

quote:

Also this verse, Phil. 1:29 "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to SUFFER for him."

What OVTheist denies that suffering may be something all Christians may have to face? I know of none, but I guess there could be someone somewhere who claims to be an OVer and denies this. Facing suffering (even one's own) it seems to me is implicit in the warfare worldview. All wars have casualties, fatalities, and hardship.

quote:

Phil 2:13 also does not seem to fit with OV. 1 Thess 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you"

Was Israel the chosen people of God?

quote:
I also struggle with understanding how the OV explains God's oath to Abraham that was not fulfilled for years and years. Hebrews 11: 9 "By faith Abraham when called to go to a place he would LATER receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going."

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; (this is what was meant by Abraham not knowing where he was going).

Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;

It seems to me that this is the LATER referred to in 11:9. Again, the OV has never denied that when God promises to do something, God does in fact possess all the power necessary to bring it to pass. What the OV denies is that everything is unilaterally controlled by God (i.e., determinism).

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/18/2003 11:15:26 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2003 3:07 AM (GMT -6)

An issue is raised in the opening post, OF god's SOVEREIGNTY.

quote:
Of course, as we all know, the God of Piper is SOVEREIGN over ALL things. Not only is He IN CONTROL of all things, but He is the CAUSE of all things. Piper's God is like a puppet master. Piper does not shy away from denying free will, but instead puts forth the claim that God is in control of all human actions.

a2rutled, I'd like to highly recommend that you read an article online that I can link to. Its about CALVIN, the man, and about his times. You know what "perspective" is. Well, John C. was just one man living in and against a particuolar backdrop. Some things that are looked BACK upon in his expressions are framed todeay in their "negative" posssition which were, in his possition, originated as "possitive" declarations. God's "control" against a wild and ravaging natural world is one thing the article points out. (Without modern science nature just seemd deadly to him--scared of wild stormy seas--and Geneva is on a lake no less1)

Read this article.

Spirituality as the Performance of Desire: Calvin on the World as a Theatre of God's Glory

muse.jhu.edu/demo/scs/1.1lane.html

quote:
In a recent essay Belden C. Lane argues that another much-abused religious leader, John Calvin, saw a direct relationship between praise and desire. Lane writes: “Praise, for Calvin, is a performative utterance. It springs from an inner disposition of intense desire, while at the same time possessing a capacity to influence, by its longing, the object of its love. The act of praising has a double effect—subjectively stirring desire in the one who celebrates and objectively evoking (making present and efficacious) what is celebrated.”

And also see this: "And YOU thought you knew Calvinism... " www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=567

When my Dutch Reformed friends talk about God's sovereignty they do not take man's part OUT of the equation, they only put man's responsibility and "part" more surely IN to the equation:

quote:
Heidelberg Catechism

1. Lord's Day

Question 1.
What is thy only comfort in life and death?

Answer.
That I with body and soul, both in life and death, (a)
am not my own, (b) but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; (c) who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, (d) and delivered me from all the power of the devil; (e) and so preserves me (f)that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; (g) yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, (h) and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, (i) and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him. (j)

Q. 2.
How many things are necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily?

A.
Three; (a) the first, how great my sins and miseries are; (b) the second, how I may be delivered from all my sins and miseries; (c) the third, how I shall express my gratitude to God for such deliverance. (d)

Fred

Edited by - fred on 06/19/2003 10:07:24 AM

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