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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/25/2001 11:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | LEE AND BOB, YOU ARE HAVING A WONDERFUL EXCHANGE. FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ON THIS WHICH I POSTED ON ANOTHER STRING. IT IS HALF ON-TOPIC AND HALF OFF.
-POW
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quote:
How could God plan for me to have tacos, and then me freely choose to eat tacos. It isn't a free choice if I don't ACTUALLY have the option of eating lasagna or a hamburger.
Xxxx, how can we complicate this?
First, as an artist and a teacher I REALLY don't think that God plans all your meals. I think that part of creation is what God made possible for you and me. I REALLY don't think that God planned for the names that Adam "gave" to the animals. I LOVE the term "potentiality." That is what you have, with tacos, I mean! Just what did that taco look like? I know of "norms" for created things--where some things just are...and God created them that way. (I'll postulate that smell, sight and taste can be "interesting" in food, but have to fit together somehow--any arguments? the very hidden "structure" of that is God's handiwork.) But God really did/does hold off on LOTS of things, INTENDING that WE have a part in it.
So, be creative! But don't spend another moment wondering if you are a gastronomic robot!!!
FREE will can involve something else. You are only partially free to not eat at all. You can do it; but you will die. That is SOME choice! (I guess.) an alcoholic is less free around alcohol than I am. Notice that the "choosing" is the free/not-free part in that one--rather than the availability. How free am I to share if I am selfish at heart? That is another thing. And worth considering.
Jesus FREELY gave himself, offered himself for us. By. "NATURE" we are free to choose God. Conditioned by the mortality brought on by sin we become less-than-free. Baptized into Christ's death and Resurrection, made to partake of Christ by the Spirit we HAVE freedom to: "stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free (and to) be not entangled again with the yolk of bondage."
I think that it is interesting that I can CHOOSE to be FREE, or not......
Thoughts?
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/26/2001 9:09:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/25/2001 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
I have to disagree with you when you said the following.
quote:
Scripture seems to say that God is acting, not reacting, even to our decisions, his choice is still the source of our choices.
The Bible shows that God, in fact, does react to man repeatedly. But first I want to show you how a Hebrew word, nacham, is translated sometimes when it is used for man’s reactions.
Man Repents
Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.
Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, what have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
Jer 31:19 Surely, after my turning, I repented; And after I was instructed, I struck myself on the thigh; I was ashamed, yes, even humiliated, because I bore the reproach of my youth.
Here is Scripture that shows that God reacts.
The same word, nacham, is used when God Repents
Gen 6:4-9 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jud 2:18 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.
1 Sa 15:11,29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. [I think you saw that God tore the kingdom from Saul and would not change in this incident of taking the kingdom from him.] 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand.
1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster [What did god do here, if He didn’t look and say to Himself, that’s enough?, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And [repent concerning] Your servants.
Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it. Here the word repent is defined by the statement, “I will turn back from it.
Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting! What does that mean, except that He is reacting with emotion?
Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. This, too, shows God reacting and changing His mind. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. This is also a change of God’s mind. God reacts, again.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities Which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent ; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon,
Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. Here, God wants to change His mind. He wants to react to them if they will repent. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them God changed His mind.. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.
Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.
Eze 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent God will not change His mind.; According to your ways And according to your deeds They will judge you, Says the Lord God.
Joel 2:13,14 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. This shows God’s wonderful nature. He wants to change His mind in reaction to man if man shapes up. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, And leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God?
Amos 7:3-6 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be. (Clearly, God changed His mind.), said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God. Because of Amos’ intercession.
Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. He either lied, or He changed His mind. My God doesn’t lie. Neither does yours. He reacted to their repentance. (Tit 1:2 He’s the non-lying God. (Gk.)) 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.
Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
God told Hezekiah he was going to die. 2 Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ “ 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3 “Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done [what] [was] good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’”
Either God lied or He reacted, changed His mind, because Hezekiah prayed. Our God doesn't lie.
Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites. But, we find out later, that He did not drive them out because of their disobedience.
Judg 1:21 But the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites who inhabited Jerusalem; so the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day. Jud 3:5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
What other reason did God give that He did God not drive them out?
Jud 3:4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the Lord, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
I praise God that He responds to prayer and reacts to man’s actions.
In Christ our Savior,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 10/26/2001 12:52:39 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/26/2001 3:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks PotOnWheel and Bob for your further thoughts, here is one thought in reply to PotOnWheel's comment...
quote:
we HAVE freedom to: "stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free (and to) be not entangled again with the yolk of bondage."
Yes, and the freedom is in the place of submission!
PS 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.
GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another...
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/26/2001 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | You guys are having a nice discussion.
Are there anythings, yet, which you think you can say that BOTH of your would agree with? | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 10/26/2001 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | |  Lee - I see you have met my friend Bob Hill. :) I just joined this site today at Bob's recommendation, plus I've been wanting to get involved here for some time, because of my support for the open view.
I've enjoyed our conversation over at TOL, over Nineveh and God repenting of His spoken words of destruction over that city. My side, i.e. God "did not do" what He said "He would do", it was not simply a conditional threat, which would mean He actually "did do" what He said He would do. God's word is true.
God repented ... and did not do it.
Good to see you here. 
"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 10/26/2001 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob - Wow, I just read the first part of your last post, that was very impressive, the event vrs the cause, and the switching going on there. God, through those Hebrews have some fascinating linguistic "flares". Heavy reliance upon intimate relational (and contextual) understanding that evidently can be so much more "indirect" than "normal" literary devices commonly employed today.
I am reminded of the idiomatic expression meaning,
"to love less than the other",
which is presented within a relational setting between more than one love**, often by just using the single word form of
"hate" (first use Gen 29:30-31)!
**Sometimes the setting is only assumed, like Rom 9 Esau I loved, but Jacob I "hated". No where does God teach literal hating apart from moral guilt and sin. God loved them both, but choose the one over the other for His special blessing (or elect/chosen service).
It's amazing how prominent and extravagant this indirect-ness can be, but at the same time, it is most comforting when you dig deep and finally see God's word demonstrate the proper setting and associations for such difficult and otherwise troubling ideas.
Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Just as to you said, God is wise and relational, reacting not just acting:
"God's actions are reflected in Psa 18:25-26, "With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; 26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd."
I take it that was the NKJV. Perhaps of interest,
Young's literal said "And with the perverse showest Thyself a wrestler,"
Darby said "and with the perverse thou dost shew thyself contrary"
I think Jacob found out about this aspect of God the hard way. ;)
Edited by - 1way on 10/26/2001 11:18:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/27/2001 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi 1Way, good to see you here! Glad to have you participate in the discussions in these forums. I do remember that verse from Jonah
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/27/2001 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Finally got around to a reply for your last two extensive posts, Bob, I appreciate your comments, here are some further thoughts...
quote:
The most important verse in my estimation is 2 Pe 3:9 where God doesn’t counsel any to perish, but all to have room for repentance: 2 Pe 3:9 “The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing [counseling boulomenos] any to perish but all to have room [cwraysai] for repentance.” In these 2 cases, we see that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected God’s counsel for themselves and in 2 Pe 3:9, we see that all who do not trust Christ as their savior reject the room for repentance that the Lord made room for in everyone.
I would interpret 2 Peter 3:9 as saying that all will come to repentance:
1TI 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
And with the verses on God's sovereignty:
JOB 42:2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."
it seems to me that what God wills, he plans, and what he plans, he carries out, to fulfillment.
quote:
God wills all men to be saved, but all men have resisted His will in this.
But this verse can still be completely fulfilled, if all men do not ultimately resist God's will for their salvation (e.g. if repentance is possible after death).
PS 86:9 All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, O Lord; they will bring glory to your name.
quote:
LK 7:30 But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
For this verse, we know that even the Pharisees did carry out God's purpose:
AC 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
So this verse in Luke must mean "purpose" in the sense of his purpose for all mankind, to love and serve him. This purpose they rejected, but they did not frustrate his plan, they, in fact, carried it out:
JN 18:14 Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be good if one man died for the people.
quote:
In Eph 1:11, we see that God works [ta panta the all things – a specific all things which from the context of Eph 1 is the body of Christ. Cf. Eph 1:10 & 23]: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel [tayn boulayn] of His will.”
This is a remarkable verse, which uses both [boulay] and [thelayma] together in the last phrase. Thus it seems that we cannot make a dichotomy between the meaning of these two words, there seems to be substantial overlap. And this verse seems to say to me that God is active in all situations, for good, that he is not passively waiting for peoples' responses: God "works, predestines," according to the "counsel" (or "purpose", here) of his "will".
quote:
Apparently you misunderstood my illustration of the clay and wax. Those 2 substances react to the heat of the sun in a specific way. Therefore, if God sees that Pharaoh has a heart that reacts to His grace like clay reacts to the sun, his heart will become hardened, because he thought of himself as a god.
But my point here, Bob, is twofold: First, there are not two different substances in this picture, there is just clay, no wax. Thus one lump of clay melts (a miracle!) and the other is hardened. Also, God made Pharaoh, so he was made to be that hardening clay, he did not make himself that way. Thus God is at the source of Pharaoh's heart being hardened, not just an incidental cause.
If God is just the incidental cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened, then why does Paul ask "who has resisted his will?" If Pharaoh is the primary cause of his heart being hardened, then the answer is plain: "Pharaoh does," and similarly with the questions you have raised on salvation and sanctification: "everyone does." The only way Paul's question makes sense is if the answer is "no one resists God's will."
quote:
Lee: God made Pharaoh's inmost being...
Bob: Ps. 139:13 is not referring to Pharaoh.
But even the devil was created by God, not by himself, Pharaoh cannot be the source of his inmost being:
EZE 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
quote:
In the second illustration, which is from Heb 6:7,8, yes, it is the kind of seed in the ground. Some seed is hard and will not respond to the gracious water sprinkled on it, other seed is more responsive, and sprouts. It is the seeds’ fault.
No, the focus is on the ground in this passage, not on the seed, Bob. And earth and clay are both completely passive, if man's choice was in view at all in these illustrations, the analogy chosen was inappropriate.
quote:
What does it mean – David’s features were written in God’s book? (Ps. 139:16) ... We believe that David is referring to God’s careful record keeping concerning His beloved, even numbering the hairs on our heads.
But this verse also states the time of God's knowledge, "before one of them came into being." God's careful record is written before the events in question, and here I believe it says, "all the days" were written, not "all my features," the word is "yom" here, the standard word for "day," though the previous phrase does refer to David's body.
"In thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them" (RSV).
"... the days of his life were formed, or shaped, suggesting the action of a potter shaping clay. He means that his life, considered not only as a whole but also right down to his daily experience, was determined (what other word fits?) ahead of time" (Raymond Ortlund, "The Sovereignty of God").
quote:
Lee, I disagree with you on thelayma. Here’s why. When Jesus said to them in Mat 19:28, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”, there was one problem. Judas didn’t follow Him all the way. Therefore, he will not sit on one of the twelve thrones.
Maybe he will, though:
quote:
Let’s continue in John 6:37-39: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ... This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”
But then if "give" is used in the same way in both these verses, then Judas will eventually come to Jesus. And thus Mt. 19:28 could be fulfilled, even for him.
quote:
God told Hezekiah he was going to die. "And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, Return and tell Hezekiah ... I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you" (2 Kings 20:1-6 ). Either God lied or He reacted, changed His mind, because Hezekiah prayed. Our God doesn't lie.
But Hezekiah did die, but not in the way he had expected:
"I then said, 'I am crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.' Then the mystery was opened and I perceived there was joy in heaven over a sinner who had repented, and that the language 'John Woolman is dead,' meant no more than the death of my own will." (John Woolman, from his journal)
So God did not react here, rather his plan was to have Hezekiah die to himself:
ISA 38:15 I will walk humbly all my years because of this anguish of my soul.
"Trust Him to be the power to slay self. Hand self over to Christ and say, 'Here is the culprit, Lord. I want you to still these throbbing pulses of passion, and let peace come instead. I cannot do it. But I give You the right to slay me in Your own way.' " (A.B. Simpson)
God does let people misunderstand him, but he always speaks the truth, I agree with you there:
JN 2:21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
quote:
Jud 3:4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the Lord, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
But did not God know their hearts? Other similar verses are Deut. 8:2, 2 Chr. 32:31,
And here are verses that seem to say the opposite:
1KI 8:39 Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men).
PS 44:21 would not God have discovered it, since he knows the secrets of the heart?
See also Luke 16:15, John 5:42, Acts 1:24, Acts 15:8, 1 John 3:20.
So how can we resolve this apparent discrepancy? The answer, I believe, is found in Psalm 139, where David says both, "you know me" (verses 1-6), and "search and know me" (verse 23). So "know" must be used in two different senses here, the first seems to refer more to factual knowledge, you know "when I sit down and when I get up, each word on my tongue, all my ways." And the second seems to refer more to the sense that "yadah" has when it is used in the context of relationships, to "know intimately," that is, knowledge in the sense of 1CO 8:3: "But the man who loves God is known by God."
At the last judgment, when all the facts are on the table, Jesus still turns to the ones on his left hand and says, "I never knew you." And for the elect, we have "The Lord knows those who are his," where know has this deeper, relational sense:
"Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His, and who is holy, and will bring him near to Himself; even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near to Himself." (Num. 16:5).
God bless you,
Lee
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/27/2001 8:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
The Hebrew word nacham, [Strong’s, 5162 (naw-kham) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted, as you can see, means repent or change your mind. Here are some references which use it with men.
Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, what have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
Jer 31:19 Surely, after my turning, I repented; And after I was instructed, I struck myself on the thigh; I was ashamed, yes, even humiliated, because I bore the reproach of my youth. 20 Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For though I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still; Therefore My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, says the Lord.
From these passages it is clear that the word means a change of mind or heart. Man’s repentance seems to arise from fear, conviction of sin, shame, or abhorrence of himself. Now let’s look at the passages that show that God does repent.
Repent, nacham, [Strong’s, 5162 (naw-kham), as it refers to God.] This is the classic verse, but there are 25 others very similar to it. God changed His mind.
Gen 6:4-9 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
When it says God repented, what does it mean if it doesn’t mean what the language shows it means in many places?
My favorite passage is Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, `He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Moses asked God to repent. He found favor with God, and God repented.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 10/28/2001 01:45:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
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| Posted 10/28/2001 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Scriptural arguments for God changing his mind are scarce. I've read God's repetence for making Saul king and I've read the 15 years added to Hezekiah's life. But to say that Moses asked God to repent and he did is a bit too far... Does this not suggest that Moses is more knowledgeable and merciful than the God? Can't these scriptures be interpretted as anthropopathisms or anthropomorphisms?
(and yes, I've read GOD OF THE POSSIBLE)
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/28/2001 2:44 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree, Greg, these phrases should be interpreted as anthropomorphisms, and certainly they should not be construed to mean just what we do when we change our minds, all of these images have to be scaled way up when they are used in reference to God.
When we read "the arm of the Lord," we scale that phrase up to mean more, so why should we not also scale up the phrase "the Lord relented?"
But here are some further comments, thanks for your further thoughts, Bob...
quote:
When it says God repented, what does it mean if it doesn’t mean what the language shows it means in many places?
JER 15:6 "You who have forsaken Me," declares the Lord, "You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!"
Here God stops "relenting", the relenting is a sustained attitude of withholding judgment, and the change that comes is to stop restraining this judgment, i.e. the change is to stop relenting. So to say that "nacham" means a change of mind in reference to God seems not to be supported here. The change here is to stop "nacham".
[quote]My favorite passage is Ex 32:9-14 ... Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Moses asked God to repent. He found favor with God, and God repented.[quote]
But this is not necessarily a change of plan, "nacham" has more than just this meaning of "repent," as in Jer. 15:6 above. "Relent" is how some versions translate this word here, which I think is more suitable, "repent" even has the connotation of sin, which is certainly not attributable to God.
God bless you,
Lee
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Kyle Essary
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| Posted 10/29/2001 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | You guys seem to be really stretching this here. Obviously when you interpret "stretched out his hand," you don't translate it literally because of the Hebrew idiom. But in the majority of the passages which speak of God "changing his mind," there is no apparent idiom. Even one of my hyper-Calvinistic Hebrew professors admited this while we were translating God changing his mind in Amos 8. You have to exegete the text and let it speak for itself. You cannot translate a passage with personal bias.
quote:
Scriptural arguments for God changing his mind are scarce.
I am struggling with this so badly because on the side of Piper, the evidence seems to be lacking and highly self contradictory, but on the side of Boyd it appears to be scarce also. But that doesn't give me the right to deny the evidence that IS on the both sides. You can't say that something is an anthropomorphism just because you disagree with what it is saying, hehe. Although that sure would make things alot easier.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/29/2001 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Kyle, I appreciate your input.
I'm still not sure, though, that the passages where it says "God relented" mean exactly what we experience when we change our mind. With all due respect to your professors, surely this must be scaled up as well!
"Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?" (Isa. 40:13-14).
Scripture definitely says God's mind is unimaginably greater than ours, so it seems to be much more of a jump to say that "nacham" in reference to God means just what we experience (what basis can we find for this in Scripture?), than to say that it means more than we experience, which does have some basis in Scripture, Num. 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, for instance:
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind." (Num. 23:19)
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 10/29/2001 11:42:39 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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JoeMoore
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| Posted 10/29/2001 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]
I'm still not sure, though, that the passages where it says "God relented" mean exactly what we experience when we change our mind. With all due respect to your professors, surely this must be scaled up as well!
[Joe]
For perspective, let's think about what the hard determinist says about these passages. Of course we all agree that God's 'repentance' doesn't look like our repentance because God has no sin and makes no mistakes. But saying that does not settle the argument. The hard determinist needs to retranslate every passage referring to God repenting, regretting or changing His mind as 'this is what I really intended all along but I finally decided to say it'. Given that the inspired word was written years after the event the language sounds to me at best manipulative and at worst downright wrong when read that way.
At some point the bottom line argument about hard determinism seems to be that the more God can keep us from facing the fact that our lives are completely determined the more 'real' our experience with Him will be.
I find that at least as difficult to fit into the Biblical picture as this aspect of the open view (God's change of relationship within His unchanging character).
Joe Moore
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/29/2001 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The hard determinist needs to retranslate every passage referring to God repenting, regretting or changing His mind as 'this is what I really intended all along but I finally decided to say it'. Given that the inspired word was written years after the event the language sounds to me at best manipulative and at worst downright wrong when read that way.
That is scaling down, not up, touché! Being one of these determinists, I would say instead that God changes his response, but not his plan, i.e. that God is not being deceptive or manipulative, it is:
If A1 then B1
If A2 then B2
The choice that will be made is known, but the presentation of the choice is part of the relationship, not just a device to get a specific result. The point of God's actions, I believe, is development of people, not building a railway line to get from point A to point B.
quote:
At some point the bottom line argument about hard determinism seems to be that the more God can keep us from facing the fact that our lives are completely determined the more 'real' our experience with Him will be.
No, the relationship is real, are choices the most important part of a relationship? Or even in lesser loves? We turn the stereo to our favorite station, we order our favorite ice cream, we call our favorite friend, because we don't know what to expect? No, almost always, because we do.
God bless you,
Lee
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 10/29/2001 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | forgive me (please ) but though I'm not reading closely enough to know the answer to this I want to ask anyways: ARE YOU GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE SAME POINT, AT LEAST the same INTUITITION? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/29/2001 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Maybe! Though I'm not sure which aspect of the discussion you may be referring to (we've strayed a ways from the initial questions posted on this thread ).
But I would add this as well, I believe that there is room for choices, real choices, within the will of God. Outside the will of God, we are just slaves to sin (Jn. 8:34, Rom. 7:14, etc.), the devil's puppet show (2 Tim. 2:26), that is the real monorail.
But when we turn to God, there is freedom within his will (compare for example, John 2: "why do you involve me?", yet he responded to her request, with John 5:19,30, "the Son can do nothing by [or of] himself").
Also those verses in Paul's letters where he seems to say with Augustine, "love God, and then do as you please":
1CO 7:36 If she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married.
1CO 10:27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you.
1TI 3:1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer...
So outside of the will of God, the way back is very strict, every stitch and gesture was prescribed for the temple sacrifices:
EX 25:9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.
But once within the will of God...
JN 8:36 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
And he wants our creativity!
PS 96:1 Sing to the Lord a new song...
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 10/29/2001 7:40:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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JoeMoore
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| Posted 10/30/2001 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]
But I would add this as well, I believe that there is room for choices, real choices, within the will of God. Outside the will of God, we are just slaves to sin (Jn. 8:34, Rom. 7:14, etc.), the devil's puppet show (2 Tim. 2:26), that is the real monorail.
[Joe]
How is this different from a degree of libertarian free will? I thought most hard determinists denied all libertarian free will (Mephi, straighten me out?).
Joe Moore
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/30/2001 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm an odd bird  it seems.
Free will, I believe, is only found in the place of complete submission to God. Before Adam and Eve sinned they were quite free:
GE 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden..."
And they lost that freedom after the fall:
GE 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
GE 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground."
So not libertarian, in the sense of "any choice is possible," nor free in that sense either. But free in the sense of "you can choose any good tree you wish to eat from."
To re-quote Augustine: "Love God, and then do as you please..."
I don't know what phrase would be suitable, "freedom-within-submission?"
"Make me a captive, Lord, and then I shall be free."
God bless you,
Lee
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 10/30/2001 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee says: "But I would add this as well, I believe that there is room for choices, real choices, within the will of God. Outside the will of God, we are just slaves to sin (Jn. 8:34, Rom. 7:14, etc.), the devil's puppet show (2 Tim. 2:26), that is the real monorail."
SEE, FOLKS! CALVINISTS ARE NOT THAT ALL "DETERMINISTS", EVEN IF THEY SOMETIMES CALL THEMSELVES THAT!!!!!
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/31/2001 1:03 PM (GMT -6) | |
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Bob Hill
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| Posted 10/31/2001 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass,
When you wrote
quote:
Scriptural arguments for God changing his mind are scarce. I've read God's repetence for making Saul king and I've read the 15 years added to Hezekiah's life. But to say that Moses asked God to repent and he did is a bit too far... Does this not suggest that Moses is more knowledgeable and merciful than the God? Can't these scriptures be interpretted as anthropopathisms or anthropomorphisms?
I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean you don’t believe what the Bible said about this incident in Ex 32, or do you mean something else?
The Scriptures say God repented over 20 times. Even though they have been posted in many places on-line, I want to list them for you.
Gen 6:4-9 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, `He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jud 2:18 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.
1 Sa 15:11,29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. [I think you saw that God tore the kingdom from Saul and would not change in this incident of taking the kingdom form him.] 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand.
1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster [What did God do here, if He didn’t look and say to Himself, that’s enough?, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And [repent concerning] Your servants.
Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it. Here the word repent is defined by the statement, “I will turn back form it.
Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting! What does that mean, except that He is showing emotion?
Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. This, too is a change of God’s mind. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. This is also a change of God’s mind.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities Which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent ; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon,
Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. Here, God had a change of mind. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them God changed His mind.. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.
Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.
Eze 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent. God will not change His mind; According to your ways and according to your deeds they will judge you, says the Lord God.
Joel 2:13,14 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. This shows God’s wonderful nature. He wants to change His mind if man shapes up. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, And leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God?
Amos 7:3-6 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be. Clearly, god changed His mind., said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God. Because of Amos’ intercession.
Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. He either lied, or He changed His mind. My God doesn’t lie. Neither does yours. (Tit 1:2 He’s the non-lying God according to the Greek text.) 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.
Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 10/31/2001 7:45:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/31/2001 3:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is my study on "nacham"
1SA 15:35 "And the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel."
This seems to simply mean "I have rejected him as king" (1 Sam. 16:1), which need not imply a change of plan. The translators have a difficult time here, since there is no one word in English that expresses "change of action" without some other overtones (repent, relent, regret are the main options, it seems, to translate "nacham" here, but they all have other implications beyond just "change"). But when God has promised, he will fulfil, God did not promise Saul permanent kingship, as he did to Jesus:
PS 110:4 The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
So when he says to Saul:
1SA 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."
This is in accordance with what Daniel wrote:
DA 2:21 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them.
Thus God's actions with Saul were in accordance with this description, his plan was unchanged, though his response to Saul changed.
-------------------
2SA 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity, and said to the angel who destroyed the people, "It is enough! Now stay your hand!"
PS 106:45 for their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented.
Not "he changed his mind," but "because of his covenant," he changed his response. If his covenant causes the relenting, then the reason he relents is because he keeps his covenant, so this verse gives the reason for "nacham": it is because God doesn't change.
Thus when God relents, it is in accordance with his nature, because of his unchanging character:
JOEL 2:13 "Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity."
God's character does not change, when God relents, it is because the situation has changed, and thus requires a different response.
Here is another verse to consider:
JER 15:6 "You who have forsaken Me," declares the Lord, "You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!"
Here God stops "relenting", so there seems to be a sense of a "delay of action" here when God is relenting, the relenting is continuous, a sustained attitude of withholding judgment, and the change that comes is to stop restraining this judgment, i.e. the change is to stop relenting. So to say that "nacham" means a change of mind in reference to God seems not to be supported here. The change here is to stop "nacham".
Now if peoples' actions change, then God's response will change (Jer. 18:7-10), but God foresees the future, which means that God has not changed his plan, in other words, he is not reacting, but acting:
JER 18:6-8 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent."
God bless you,
Lee
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1way
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| Posted 10/31/2001 7:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee - As to quote:
1SA 15:35 "And the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel."
This seems to simply mean "I have rejected him as king"
The contextual ripping here is so obvious and direct, that I find myself left with little more than saying that you just ripped and violated the context of the verse you pulled it out from.
Any other time, and in another other situation, if person G said that he regretted supporting person S, then you (as a third party) would allow that truth in reality without questioning whether or not person G really and honestly regretted their decision about person S. So I see no consistency within your reasoning for re-interpreting the passage as you did. Certainly you don't view the entire world with such untrusting and unfounded suspicions of hypocrisy and dishonesty? ... Do you?
God spoke of His own regret over His own doing when He made Saul king. If you remove the word associated with the idea that
God regretted making Saul king over Israel,
you are left with nothing meaningful from that verse, except perhaps the grammatical conjunction "and", point being that your re-interpretation renders the meaning offered from the text into oblivion.
God's word says the God regretted what He did, but you say, not so, it appears to you that God did not regret what He did, He just rejected Saul as King. Where do you come up with this idea, it's certainly not found within the text presented?
I look forward to your response addressing this apparent neglect and contextual violence.
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Kyle Essary
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| Posted 10/31/2001 9:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think Lee means to re-translate the verse. He is just emphasizing his point that God changing His mind is probably different than when we change our minds. Obviously we all agree that the mind of God is much more complex than our own, and therefore changing it would be complex as well. If you go back and read his previous posts I believe this is what he is trying to say. Just because we understand our personal experience of changing our minds, that doesn't necessarily mean that when God changes His mind it is the exact same as with us. I in no way think he was trying to abuse the Scripture.
Edited by - Kyle Essary on 11/01/2001 02:17:14 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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