 |
| 
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/1/2001 3:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
God's word says the God regretted what He did, but you say, not so, it appears to you that God did not regret what He did, He just rejected Saul as King.
I did slip up there, that is an overstatement that I made, and there was a component of emotion in the "nacham" in regard to Saul.
And as Kyle points out, I do believe that "nacham" in reference to God is not to be taken as representing what we experience. To some degree, yes, but the tables are turned, actually!
What we experience is a small degree of what God experiences, and also our experiences have the flaws of the fall in them, and his do not...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 11/2/2001 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
The Bible shows that God, in fact, does react to man repeatedly. But first I want to show how nacham, is translated sometimes when it is used or man’s reactions.
The exact same word is used of man, although when man repents, it’s for his own bad behavior. When God repents, it’s for many reasons, but the main ones are man does not do what God expected him to do.
Man Repents
Ex 13:17 “Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.” Notice God said perhaps the people change.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.
Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, what have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
Jer 31:19 Surely, after my turning, I repented; And after I was instructed, I struck myself on the thigh; I was ashamed, yes, even humiliated, because I bore the reproach of my youth.
Here is Scripture that shows that God reacts.
The same word, nacham, is used when God Repents
Gen 6:4-9 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Why did God repent? Because man got so wicked.
Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Moses used the word nacham in asking God to repent. Moses knew the meaning of the word. God responded to Moses intercession and did not destroy Israel.
Jud 2:18 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.
1 Sa 15:11,29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. [I think you saw that God tore the kingdom from Saul and would not change in this incident of taking the kingdom form him.] 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand.
1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster [What did God do here, if He didn’t look and say to Himself, that’s enough?, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And [repent concerning] Your servants.
Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it. Here the word repent is defined by the statement, “I will turn back form it.
Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting! What does that mean, except that He is showing emotion? He is tired of the rebellious people that He called to be His.
Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. This, too is a change of God’s mind. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. This is also a change of God’s mind.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent ; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon. When God did not repent, He destroyed them.
Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. Here, God had a change of mind. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them God changed His mind.. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.
Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.
Eze 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent God will not change His mind.; According to your ways And according to your deeds They will judge you, Says the Lord God.
Joel 2:13,14 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. This shows God’s wonderful nature. He wants to change His mind if man shapes up. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, And leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God?
Amos 7:3-6 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be Clearly, god changed His mind., said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God. Because of Amos’ intercession.
Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. He either lied, or He changed His mind. My God doesn’t lie. Neither does yours. (Tit 1:2 He’s the non-lying God. (Gk.)) 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.
Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/3/2001 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster.
Bob: What did God do here, if He didn’t look and say to Himself, that’s enough?
He said "stop" here, I would say. We say "that's enough" when pouring water, for instance, and that doesn't mean we have changed our minds.
quote:
Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. This, too is a change of God’s mind. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. This is also a change of God’s mind.
I would say here, Bob, that here is a complete plan laid out, conditions and responses, and thus this verse shows (to me) that God can change his response without changing his mind or his plan.
If A1 then B1, if A2 then B2.
Thus if A2 is chosen, then B2 will follow, without this implying that the person who laid down the conditions changed his mind.
quote:
Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
Bob: He either lied, or He changed His mind. My God doesn’t lie. Neither does yours.
If there is any possible imputation of lying, it seems possible to me to be with your interpretation, Bob. For if God said X and did Y, then he misled the people who were counting on X being done. Which is an (inadvertent, perhaps) lie. But if God had the same plan all through, and laid down the conditions with the results, and carried out his plan all along, then no one was misled.
The Ninevites thought that God gave a condition with the threatened judgment, they "believed God" (Jon. 3:5), but they didn't run out of the city to sit on the hill with Jonah, to wait for the inevitable destruction.
Instead, they turned from their wickedness and fasted and prayed. Thus a condition was understood, and God did what he said, in a larger sense, by rescinding the judgment when they repented.
Also, God did what he said, in the sense that the city was overthrown, but by the Ninevite's repentance, not by destruction.
The sense in which he did not do as he had said, has in view only the threat of destruction, as far as I can tell. To say that this is all that God said, and that he changed his mind, implies misleading people, perhaps unintentionally, but still a lie nonetheless.
God bless you,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 11/03/2001 4:26:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/5/2001 2:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Regarding Exodus 32, Bob Hill wrote: "Moses used the word nacham in asking God to repent. Moses knew the meaning of the word. God responded to Moses intercession and did not destroy Israel."
If this is true and is not anthropopathic language, wouldn't this mean that God was willing to break his promises to the 12 tribes in Genesis 49? If God killed all of the Israelites except Moses, a Levite, then God would have broken his promises which is against his nature.
(I'm still new to the open-view discussion. I'm currently somewhere between supralapsarianism and free-will theism)
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/5/2001 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | This is a wonderful thread, with all of you really doing hard work, and reading attentively to what each other are saying. Congratulations. That being said, I admit to myself and you that I can't truly come up to speed, no match in any way what you have going on. But if you could allow my slight and brief interjection for a moment...
The passage you are discussing, from one angle is very complicated. Again, I can't mesh gears with you--I haven't earned the tuition.
I'd like to venture a guess on another aspect, though. In bible Study last night (studying John Timmer's book on Jesus in the 4 Gospels) we were addressing the Kingdom of God. the thesis was that the Kingdom is hidden like yeast in dough. The question to guide posed was "why is that so?" It occurred to me that a couple of times God had offered to start over. God could have begun again with perfect humanity, making totally new instead of growing re-newed from within. (This relates to a few other questions in the guide too, which I can't recall right now--sorry!) But THIS SWEDE (me) doesn't really think that God intended it. I just plain think that it was a rhetorical device meant to provide nice prophecy. Not the predictive kind of prophecy; but the revealing, pull back the curtain on the big meaning of things kind of prophecy! The window through all this up-close to the real view on things. The way I'm taking this passage of yours is that God was showing what he was NOT going to do--start over--in order to 'telegraph' (a football term for an unsneaky quarterback who gives away his passing plans...) what he intended instead. Christ was NOT a begin-again. He was a "in all ways except sin" assumption of fallen humanity, by the work of the Holy Spirit using real, fallen flesh of the blessed Virgin Mary!
THAT struck me. I didn't remember your thread here at all. But seeing it I wanted to share these thoughts. For the critique of all and any.
(I probably will not be able to "defend" if any object to this. But I will invite any "defenders" who may wish to echo this idea...if they wish.)
Thanks for forgiving the intrusion.
PotOnWheel | | Back to Top | | |
|
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/6/2001 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | You do have good insight, PotOnWheel, and it is important that God didn't "start over." In fact, this seems to show that God was not surprised by the fall, or by Israel's calf-worship in the desert, he didn't start over, quite possibly, because his plan was still being fulfilled.
To start over could be an indication of a mistake or an imperfect plan...
God bless you,
Lee
P.S. If you enjoy any of the papers I deliver to your doorstep, I'll tell you my secret, I just try and be a good listener, for pointers to Scripture verses, and then "read it from the book." Not that other people here aren't listening as well, but that's all I do!
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 11/06/2001 11:32:46 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 11/11/2001 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee - I am responding to your last post on the first page. I goofed and forgot about the other pages. As to Romans, not so. Paul is talking about God's response to our acceptance or rejection to God's care. The OT affirms the right understanding that the clay is responsible to God towards Godly repentance or turning instead towards evil. The potter then sees the state of the clay one way or the other and creates a vessel accordingly. Pharaoh had a choice, he had already set his heart against God from the start, so God did as He can and used that hardness to His own glory, even as He turned up the heat on pharaoh which had the obvious effect of further hardening his heart. But even then, even at the last plague, Pharaoh could have repented of his wickedness and unbelief and God could have spared them that last plague, and just like in Nineveh for example, God would have been glorified, and He could have created a new vessel towards honor. It was Pharaoh's free and very informed choice, God did not tempt, support, encourage, nor cause Pharaoh's wickedness. And God teaches that you can not be so contrary as to contradict your own household and remain standing. quote:
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Pr 6:16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren
Mt 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
God is shown throughout scriptures as opposing evil, never encouraging it, and what Pharaoh did was evil and was caused by his own hard hearted unbelief.
As to Paul's admonition about man's charges against God, God is able to use man according to our disposition of Him, man has no such claim against God that He can't do that. God can use a person's
receptive malleability (good clay, repenting towards God v.8)
or their rejecting rigidity (bad clay = turning towards evil v.10)
towards God. You have no basis for trying to insert into the text what is not there. Man's free will is the assumption of the entire text as is also the OT parts that it is in reference to. The solution is simple, don't reject, rather, respect the truth in context.
Edited by - 1way on 11/11/2001 9:10:49 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/11/2001 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Lee.
I was working from doctrinal statements as resource. Here, though, are the scripture verses that support.
Someone, I'm not sure--maybe G.K. Chrsterton--was quoted as saying that the incarnation is "the scandal of the incarnation". That is worth thinking about. I think it is easy to slip into forgetfulness. Material, secular, darkness of humanities doings... Nativity was a scandal. The Annunciation is worth thinking about. (understatement!)
Here are the scriptures.
Hebrews 2
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Hebrews 5:7-9
7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
(verse selection taken from Thomas Hopko's book, "The Winter Pasca")
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 11/11/2001 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | | A Few Brief Comments On the Last Couple of Posts.
[bBob 1 Chr 21:15 (Where God sent an angel "to destroy Jerusalem" but then relented): Bob Hill askes Lee: "What did God do here, if He didn’t look and say to Himself, that’s enough?" Lee responds, "He said "stop" here, I would say. We say "that's enough" when pouring water, for instance, and that doesn't mean we have changed our minds.
Doc: But Lee, if you FIRST announced your intention is to fill a glass (God sent the angel "to destroy Jerusalem") and THEN decided to stop (God relented), then you DID "change your mind." If God didn't really relent, then God didn't really send the angel "to destroy Jersualem." And now we're all left wondering why God told us both that he sent the angel to destroy Jersualm and and he then decided against it.
Jewgrass: If this is true (that God could have destroyed Israel) and is not anthropopathic language, wouldn't this mean that God was willing to break his promises to the 12 tribes in Genesis 49? If God killed all of the Israelites except Moses, a Levite, then God would have broken his promises which is against his nature.
Doc: It means that the promise in Genesis 49 must have been conditional in nature. Consider, as a parallel, that the Lord said to Eli, ‘I promised that your family and the family of your ancestor should go in and out before me forever’; (2 Sam 2:30). But this all changed when Eli did not properly watch over his scoundrel sons. " … now, the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me; for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be treated with contempt.
See, a time is coming when I will cut off your strength and the strength of your ancestor’s family, so that no one in your family will live to old age (2 Sam 2:31).
Often God's promises look unconditional, when in fact they are conditional. They express God's true intention at the time (if they don't express this much, because God foreknows he'll never come through on, we have an issue with God's integrity), but they don't express God's unconditional commitment for all time.
Lee: To start over could be an indication of a mistake or an imperfect plan... (Hence he concludes that God can't start over).
Doc: But Scripture tells us in explict terms that God DID start over, and it tells us why. "He regret making humans" (Gen 6:6). Where free agents are involved, perfect plans can go awry, and its NOT THE PlANNERS FAULT.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/12/2001 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc: Often God's promises look unconditional, when in fact they are conditional. They express God's true intention at the time (if they don't express this much, because God foreknows he'll never come through on, we have an issue with God's integrity), but they don't express God's unconditional commitment for all time.
Jewgrass: Can we not say the same about God's threatening Hezekiah? This argues against hard-determinism but in favor of arminianism or molinism. Could we not say God knew Hezekiah would repent if threatened with death, therefore he told him he would die? Does this undermine God's integrity? I don't see why it would. Hezekiah made the free choice to repent and God knew he would do that. Did God change his mind because a possibility became a certainty (Open-View) or was this an example of God's conditional promises appearing to be unconditional? (In Boyd's words regarding Genesis 49, "Often God's promises look unconditional, when in fact they are conditional.")
Also, Hezekiah's son Manasseh who succeeded him to the throne wasn't born until three years after 15 years were added to his life. (2 Kings 21:1) Am I wrong in the assertion that killing Hezekiah without an heir would ruin God's promises to David's never-ending kingdom (2 Samuel 7) since Hezekiah and Manasseh are both ancestors of Christ (Matthew 1:10)?
Just a thought.
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
"My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed." -- General Stonewall Jackson | | Back to Top | | |
|
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/12/2001 3:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1Way: Pharaoh had a choice, he had already set his heart against God from the start, so God did as He can and used that hardness to His own glory. ... God did not tempt, support, encourage, nor cause Pharaoh's wickedness.
I agree!
quote:
1Way: Man's free will is the assumption of the entire text as is also the OT parts that it is in reference to. The solution is simple, don't reject, rather, respect the truth in context.
But God's choice overarches man's choice, his will is primary, not a response to ours:
ISA 46:10 My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
PS 33:10-11 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.
quote:
Doc: But Lee, if you FIRST announced your intention is to fill a glass (God sent the angel "to destroy Jerusalem") and THEN decided to stop (God relented), then you DID "change your mind." If God didn't really relent, then God didn't really send the angel "to destroy Jerusalem." And now we're all left wondering why God told us both that he sent the angel to destroy Jerusalem and he then decided against it.
Mea culpa! I didn't read the context. My first thought (with the context!) is that Jerusalem was destroyed by the angel, but not by physical dying, but by dying as the Ninevites died, through repentance.
1CH 21:16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown.
Maybe all the people in Jerusalem saw this angel, and fell facedown!
quote:
I then heard a soft melodious voice, more pure and harmonious than any I had heard with my ears before; I believed it was the voice of an angel who spake to the other angels; the words were, "John Woolman is dead." I greatly wondered what that heavenly voice could mean. I believed beyond doubting that it was the voice of a holy angel, but as yet it was a mystery to me.
I then said, "I am crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Then the mystery was opened and I perceived there was joy in heaven over a sinner who had repented, and that the language "John Woolman is dead," meant no more than the death of my own will. (John Woolman, from his "Journal")
quote:
Lee: To start over could be an indication of a mistake or an imperfect plan... (Hence he concludes that God can't start over).
Doc: But Scripture tells us in explict terms that God DID start over, and it tells us why. "He regret making humans" (Gen 6:6). Where free agents are involved, perfect plans can go awry, and its NOT THE PLANNER'S FAULT.
Not a complete "start over," though, that is what I (think I) meant. As long as there is just a thread of continuity, then it is possible that the plan is still intact, it seems.
quote:
Jewgrass: Can we not say the same about God's threatening Hezekiah? This argues against hard-determinism but in favor of arminianism or molinism. Could we not say God knew Hezekiah would repent if threatened with death, therefore he told him he would die?
I think Hezekiah did die, in a sense! As John Woolman did, above...
ISA 38:15 But what can I say? He has spoken to me, and he himself has done this. I will walk humbly all my years because of this anguish of my soul.
Just as Ninevah (it seems to me) was overthrown, but by repentance, not by destruction.
quote:
Also, Hezekiah's son Manasseh who succeeded him to the throne wasn't born until three years after 15 years were added to his life. (2 Kings 21:1) Am I wrong in the assertion that killing Hezekiah without an heir would ruin God's promises to David's never-ending kingdom (2 Samuel 7) since Hezekiah and Manasseh are both ancestors of Christ (Matthew 1:10)?
As far as descent is concerned (whether of the 12 tribes or the royal line of David), let us keep in mind the words of John the Baptist:
MT 3:9 I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
God bless you,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 11/12/2001 8:22:29 PM | | Back to Top | | |
| 61 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:08 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|