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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/3/2002 1:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | Artist weighing in: (conceptually)
quote:
GregBoyd
Postmillennialist
1050 Posts Posted - 06/02/2002 : 11:12:38 PM
---------------------------------------------
I am experiencing God, experiencing me, experience Him. Abraham was then and still is experiencing God, experiencing him, experience God.
Doc: Wonderful. But does God's "experiernce of us experiencing him" at all depend on how we RESPOND to our "experience of him"? Or is the whole thing REALLY just God experiencing himself THROUGH us, and we are in truth have nothing to contribute to the loop? IF our experience of God and God's experience of us is INTERPERSONAL, than we must be PERSONAL, which means we actually make a CONTRIBUTION to the "loop." God doesn't just experience himself. He experiences US -- and we are persons.
FYIW (for what its worth)
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
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I notice AND PARTICULARLY LIKE the way the signature from Galations is a mini-summation of the body of your post, Doc. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 6/3/2002 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tim: I believe, God's "experience of us experiencing him", does depend on how we RESPOND, to our "experience of him", thus, contributing to the loop? However, I also believe, the whole thing is REALLY about God, experiencing himself, THROUGH us. That is to say, God does, just experience himself, while He experiences US, experiencing him -- and we are our own persons.
Doc: What is the cash value of saying "the whole thing is REALLY about God, experirencing himself"? Is his experience of us responding to him not "real"? And what does it mean to say "God does just experrence himself" when you also say he experience US? If he experiences himself THROUGH us, and we are "our own persons", then his experience of US is as real as his experience of himself. And if his experience of US is as real as his experience of himself, then it would not at all preclude his experience of himself WAITING TO SEE how we will freely respond to him. Do you agree with this?
Tim: Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Doc: I have to say that this Bible verse, as with many of the Bible verses you post without explanation, is puzzeling. Is there a point you're making with it?
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 6/3/2002 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: Norman Geisler came out with the book "Battle For God," about, say, a month or two ago. I got through about 2 chapters and quit (I am planning to go back to it again soon). I find much of it is based on assumption of what scripture says not what scripture actually says. I purchased it around the same time as Frame's "No Other Name," which I have only scanned. To give you an idea of that book's "character," Frame says in the introduction that he hesitated writing it because, as he says, "I should say, too, that after I completed the first draft of this book, Bruce Ware's excellant God's Lesser Glory became available. After I read it, I had second thoughts about my own work: what could I add to a treatment as full, balanced, and persuasive as Ware's?" As one who found Ware's book lacking, I find Frame's comment particularly discouraging. But I will continue to read critiques of open theism because I find it helps me to constantly reform.
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/3/2002 5:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Doc,
That which follows something on which it depends, is the consequence; a result; that which is produced by a cause; God is ultimately the cause or source of all future actions, though He does not act them out Himself, we do, the effect.
Greg: What is the cash value of saying, "the whole thing is REALLY about God, experiencing himself"?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
Or,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Greg: Is his experience of us responding to him not "real"?
TIM: I believe, God’s experience of us, responding to him, is more "real" for him, than what He had before creating us.
Greg: And what does it mean to say, "God does, just experience himself, while He experiences US, experiencing him…"
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
And,
Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Greg: If he experiences himself THROUGH us, and we are "our own persons", then his experience of US is as real as his experience of himself.
TIM: Yes, however, let me add, we are the experience of himself, having created of himself, humankind.
Greg: And if his experience of US is as real as his experience of himself, then it would not at all preclude [or hinder?] his experience of himself WAITING TO SEE how we will freely respond to him. Do you agree with this?
TIM: YES! However, things happen differently, when I trust him to establish my steps, obviously.
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Greg: Is there a point you're making with Gen 3:1?
TIM: The LORD God made to grow out of the ground, every tree of the Garden of Eden. Which is to say, evil comes from God’s knowledge, etc. However, I am not saying, my Father has any evil in Him at all, having knowledge of something and being it, are very different. His Son on the other hand, became the very evil of my sins, himself, and talk about an experience.
In God’s Love,
Tim
Edited by - Tim on 06/03/2002 11:01:41 PM
Edited by - Tim on 06/04/2002 06:32:25 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/4/2002 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | It would be much easier to make a post using long quotes from obscure websites, or to post tangentally related images....BUT...
HERE IS A BIT OF RARE SPECULATION FROM PoW:
Tim, you said:
quote:
"However, I also believe, the whole thing is REALLY about God, experiencing himself, THROUGH us.
That is to say, God does, just experience himself, while He experiences US, experiencing him -- and we are our own persons."
I'll opt to disagree. First I'll admit that what you seem to be saying is pretty spacy--way up there. AND it might not actually make sense. FINALLY, it appears clear to me that the last part contradicts the rest. (or have you just confused me.)
ANY, ANY RESPONSE THAT I CAN MAKE IS PROBABLY JUST SPECULATION -- AND I DON'T LIKE SPECULATION. BUT HERE GOES........
First, for mankind to experience himself outside of communion with God WAS the original sin. Man is sinful because he is in the image of the personal God. But man is personal only in communion--man alone is not good. For man to know himself outside of knowledge in-communion was to know a duality. (I wonder whether "good" and "evil" rever to "sacred" and "profane" in religious space: either real space, conceptual space, or symbolic space.) For mankind to have knowledge of himself apart from God was/is sin.
God is different. God CAN know Himself apart from us and not be out of communion by doing so.
THAT DIFFERENCE is central, and, I believe, significantly contrary to what you are speculating about, Tim.
God's experience of himself is qualitatively different from hiw experience of us.
For us to truly experience ourselves TRULY, we must also be in communion with God. If we are out of communion with God then we lack the likeness of God, and true wholeness is impossible--we are bent.
My intuition is that God truly experiences us, personally, APART FROM how He experiences Himself.
BUT I CAN'T PROOVE IT!
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/5/2002 2:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your response, PotOnWheeel,
I agree with your disagreement of my statement, it is vague, and I agree with all of your other thoughts.
It has appeared to everyone, that I am saying things, that I truly did not intend, by what I have said. However, the response to what I have said proves to me that I did not present my true thoughts very well; that is, what I meant, I conveyed terribly. Nonetheless, the conversation has taken a direction to my liking anyway; this is my official disclaimer of, or on stammering over my own publicly announced ideas of, or about truth.
My affirmation is, that I am talking about, my ‘Experiencing God’, and not how God must experience things. However, I recognize, such as you do, the latter may only prove conjecture, merely imagining how it is for God to experience things. Nonetheless, is my imagination not about my ‘Experiencing God’, no matter how ridiculous?
I believe God is by all of creation experienced, in its own way, even by those who are not in communion. That is to say, you and I are experiencing God in one another, and He is experiencing His own knowledge, understanding, and wisdom in this equation only, as we experience Him in His creation of all things. Did God experience creation before creating; the absurd is still the absurd, even if we are talking about God. That is to say, the actuality and not the conception are only experienced, once accomplished.
God experiences only what He permits to be in me to experience, good, bad, or indifferent: regardless of my relationship with Him?
In God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/6/2002 2:09 AM (GMT -6) | | My friend, PotOnWheel,
What you said, PotOnWheel, is revelation, not speculation. However, God experiencing God, is The Son of God experiencing His Fathers ‘Desire’, through creation! The experience of the Son and Father before all other things are, is love; beyond that understanding, would possibly be, speculation; I have speculated on that many, many times. The experience of, God experiencing God during and after creation, is very well documented in the Scriptures.
In God’s Love,
Tim
Edited by - Tim on 06/06/2002 07:11:14 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Tim: However, God experiencing God, is The Son of God experiencing His Fathers ‘Desire’, through creation!
History: Origin, in his theology, connected God with a need for his creation -- resulting in a view that creation is eternal becasue God needs it to be so.
Are you wandering down the Originist path, Tim? (Dont' go there.)
PoW
(We disagree on both of your points in the post above.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/6/2002 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | The experience of the Son and Father before all other things are, is love...
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/6/2002 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
'Pot' calling the 'Timmel' black:
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Seymour
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 6/12/2002 10:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
[...]why do you think God later says to Abraham “Now I know…” instead of “Now YOU know…”?
But God doesn't say "Now I know...", an angel says it. This is a point that I've never seen raised against the OV on this verse. What is to stop us from saying that God had EDF about this event but that the angel did not, and that it was the angel, as well as Abe who learned something new about Abe, but not God?
Just wondering.
Some folks dance cool, all angels and swaying hips, Sensual as all get out and in. Me, I'm a hick, and I dance like one, I just kinda jump around and grin.
--Greg Brown | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/13/2002 1:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Just wondering,
When I say, I believe God is infinitely wise, with universal knowledge…I wonder how all knowledge, can not know.
Experience of knowledge is different in God’s mind, as He relates to Abraham or me, experiencing Him. God’s experience is learning {careful how I use this word learning} what man does in action, to what God knows as possible, before it becomes actual. God is not learning in the sense, that He does not contain all knowledge of all possible events. He experiences those events, although He knows all possible events in a world, where He has created freedom of choice; He relates to those choices. There is so much more to the reality of God’s foreknowledge than I am presently presenting, please understand…
God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/16/2002 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Can God experience Himself, through every possible individual, in a way that he does not have knowledge of?
Not really, God knows Himself; He is ALL knowledge, therefore, God knows every possible experience of every human that might ever be born. However, I work with, experience, or learn from what knowledge, only God chooses to review, of Himself, to humanity and me personally. This is what I mean, when I say, "I am experiencing God…"
God experiences what He knows can happen (that is all ‘Possible Certainties’) in the life of the next baby born, until they die. I believe God knows everything, about every life that may be born, before the creation, from eternity past.
I am not saying, God learns, orthodox frowns upon that. God experiences the freedom of my choices for the first time when they occur, they become actual. He knows of all the possible consequences of givng humankind the freedom of choice, simply because He is knowledge and cannot help but know.
Nonetheless, God is able to interfere anytime He chooses, with whom ever He chooses, to bring about whatever result He chooses, therefore, being certain of any outcome in a person’s life He chooses. Except for the choice of Salvation I believe, which He leaves to the individual to decide upon, therefore leaving Him, that is God in the dark, about whom will receive His gift of eternal life. God is not a prisoner of His own knowledge, nor am I, He relates in real time to real situations in my live, which He knows can occur.
This is what I mean, when I say, "God is…experiencing me, experience Him.
God relates to and/or experiences me personally, as I experience what He knew could happen. God can take control of my steps and establish or make them sure, if I will let Him or if; I will not…kind of a Heaven or Hell thing.
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/16/2002 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | I would like to continue this conversation, with anyone who wishes, under Can God experience Himself...I believe that I have formed a more concise statement, of my beliefs there, thank you for your understanding.
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/16/2002 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | I would like to respond to this topic, and to Tim.
First to Tim. I don't think God needs to experience himself, like we might need to experience ourselves. God's knowledge is complete in this sense. However, when relating to creatures with LCFW (Libertarian Creaturely Free Will, for those who haven't followed these discussions), he may indeed enjoy experiencing our response to his creation and to Himself.
The LORD, your God, is in your midst,
a warrior who gives victory;
he will rejoice over you with gladness,
he will renew you£ in his love;
he will exult over you with loud singing
Zeph. 3:17 (NRSVA)
Now to the point of God saying "now I know", and similar statements cited by the OV. Let us assume that there is LCFW, and that some things are not settled until certain things take place. So, Abraham's heart toward God might not have been settled until it was tested on the mount.
Under the OV, we can look at Gen 22 as the point where the unsettled became settled, for ALL.
However, what about the view that allows for EFN? If we again allow for the premise of LCFW and that some things are unsettled until certain events take place, then couldn't God still say, "now I know?" Let me explain.
Given EFN, God could know that Abraham would have passed the test. However, the thing still is not truly settled until he passes the test. The act of passing the test would be the basis of God's knowledge of Abraham, and would also be the basis of many events yet to come. God is not being disingenious to say "NOW" I know, because the knowing is determined by that event in time.
This only becomes problemmatic if you do not allow for LCFW and an openness to the future.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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