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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 9/14/2002 6:27 PM (GMT -6) |   |
And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Gen. 15:16 (NRSVA)
How did God know that in the fourth generation, the initquity of the Amorites would be complete? This knowledge would appear to preclude God knowing much more about the actions of individuals than the OV normally allows for.
For the purposes of discussion, I do not think this verse suggests that God would ordain the inquity of the Amorites. This verse appears to strongly suggest foreknowledge of individual choices, as opposed to being God's will, projected into the future.
Any thoughts?
Yours in Christ,
Winghead 
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/14/2002 8:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How did God know that in the fourth generation, the initquity of the Amorites would be complete?
He didn't. The verse doesn't say their sin WOULD be complete in four generations. It only says that he would bring the Jews out of Egypt in the fourth generation because the sin of the Amorites was not yet complete. Two things: 1. Israel needed to incubate as a nation somewhere safe, and 2. God was giving the Amorites time. Time for what? Time to change and repent? Time to harden sufficiently? Not sure. But since God had seen this all before (Gen. 6) it might be that God was certain four generations was MORE than enough time for the Amorites to get buttered up for judgment. Maybe the specific length of time is for national incubation.
That's my guess.
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 9/15/2002 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tom:quote:
He didn't. The verse doesn't say their sin WOULD be complete in four generations. It only says that he would bring the Jews out of Egypt in the fourth generation because the sin of the Amorites was not yet complete. Two things: 1. Israel needed to incubate as a nation somewhere safe, and 2. God was giving the Amorites time. Time for what? Time to change and repent? Time to harden sufficiently? Not sure. But since God had seen this all before (Gen. 6) it might be that God was certain four generations was MORE than enough time for the Amorites to get buttered up for judgment. Maybe the specific length of time is for national incubation.
Good try, Tom. I agree with 1 and 2. He was probably giving the Amorites time to repent and/or to harden sufficently (depending on how they would choose, according to their LCFW). I also think this verse is important because when God tells the Israelites to wipe them out completely, we have Gen 15:16 show us that it was not an arbitrary decission on God's part -- that it was indeed his judgement on them.
BTW, is four generations equal to 400 years? Its not in our time. What do scholars say about this? The Hebrew, I suppose, could allow for four centuries to pass.
In any case, this verse is problemmatic from the way the OV typically defines God's foreknowledge of the future choices of individuals with LCFW. If one takes a deterministic position to explain this, as is often the case with Peter's denials, then you have God determining the Armorite's iniquity, for which he subsequently judges them. This causes major issues in the area of theodicy -- unless you are a theological determinist  .
It would seem that we are left with the fact that God is foretelling the future actions of individuals with LCFW. However, if that is the case, then what about the other open verses in the Bible where God appears to be surprised about the results? Why couldn't he know people's choices in those cases. These are important questions to ask.
Of course, the best OV answer to Gen 15:16 might be that God, based on his omnicient knowledge of the Amorites, was able to accurately predict the time it would take for their iniquity to be complete. And, in this case, the "four generations" was accurate, or the "four generations" was not accurate, and God needed 400 years -- depending, of course, on how you interpret "generations". My point is this. Gen 15 appears to suggest that God knows the outcome of the combined future free acts of individuals, for at four generations. 
My point is this: Gen 15 appears to suggest that God knows the outcome of the combined future free acts of individuals. Theologically, we need to engage this, rather than dismiss it because it does not fit into our openness world view.
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 9/15/2002 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's what I have been wrestling with in several of my recent posts.
With regards to the openness debate, I have concluded the following:
- The Bible appears to reveal the existance of at least limited LCFW.
- The Bible appears to teach that the future is partially settled and partially open, as Greg Boyd has demonstrated with scripture.
- The Bible reveals a God that engages this openness.
- The primary reason the OV rejects FN is because of philosophical arguements -- i.e., we can't figure out how you can have FN and genuinue LCFW.
In a small number of cases, we run into FN scripture texts that are hard to argue away using the normal line of reasoning of the OV. Rather than avoiding them, or appealing to mystery (which I supose is always an option  ), I am trying to engage the problem. After all, the Trinity is essentially a result of a handful of texts that make the link between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Theologians engaged the texts and now understand them as Trinitarian. In the same way, I am suggesting people who have embraced the OV, or find it makes at least some convincing points, should work through these issues.
Any thoughts?
Trying to say open,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2002 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Winghead, I know that you were saying it in a comparision, and you defined it just fine. But when you said it I winced.
quote:
After all, the Trinity is essentially a result of a handful of texts that make the link between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I've heard too many contemporary students of the bible think that the Church merely picked up the book and tried to figure it out. Taken literally as the words are, this would be a horrable statement. The Trinity is revealed in every aspect of our salvation and our relationship to God. THAT is primary. And the scriptures contain that same story too.
But you framed it well enough. | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 9/16/2002 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Al,
quote:
The Trinity is revealed in every aspect of our salvation and our relationship to God. THAT is primary. And the scriptures contain that same story too.
But you framed it well enough.
I understand, but you got my point. I am strongly Trinitarian. The trinity answers many theological questions. One of my favorite theologians, Wolfhart Pannenberg, discusses the trinity throughout his systematic theology. Compare that to Millard Erickson's systematic theology which only gives the trinity less than a couple dozen pages. Interestingly, Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock are both strong on the Trinity. However, I do not think there is a connection to this and being an Open Theist (not that anyone said it was).
Yours in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 9/18/2002 4:00 PM (GMT -6) | | A friend suggested a way of understanding Gen 15:16 from the OV perspective.
quote:
God new that it would take "four generations" for the overall, corporate, iniquity of the Amorites to be complete.
This would not necessarily require God to know exhaustively how individuals would act. Given how God often judges groups of people corporately, this explaination could be plausible.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Robert Furney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 9/23/2002 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | In the Apocrypha it is stated that God waited patiently with the Canaanites to give them a chance to repent. See Wisdom of Solomon Chapters 11 and 12 for more details. This idea is in keeping with many verses that says the same sort of thing, that God gives people time to repent. But there is a point where God's patience has reached its limit and the chance of repenting is no longer given. But that is another story.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/24/2002 2:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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gguskid
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 32
| Posted 10/11/2002 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | I'd like to take a crack at Gen. 15:16 from an OV perspective.
Lets start in verse 12 for the purpose of creating more of a context. This text, starting in v.12, starts the Arbramic Covenant narrative. It is God's unconditional covenant to Abram, that his descendants (seed) would receive the Promised Land. This is God’s fulfilling work in Abram's life from his call and promises in 12:1-3. NOTICE: God initiates, Abram responds (as in 12:1-3ff)...God keeps His promise and initiates the Covenant (as in 15:12-21).
God was working with a willing, pliable heart, and one that had responded to His first call. God is no less interested in working in every one in the same manner. However, in creating us with a will that could choose not to respond in faith, understanding perfectly the implications of such a risk, He therefore must maintain His equity in meeting out justice and fulfilling His promises of blessing. This He does in His own time.
This brings me to the Amorites. As many generations have already passed in which the LORD has been dealing with the hearts of all men, God's knowledge of such, perfect in every way, places Him in the position to know how slowly or how fast men’s hearts will be drawn to or away from Him in any given cultural context. This does not require, nor in any way indicate, exhaustive foreknowledge as we understand it. Rather, it shows a perfect understanding God has of men's staying hearts, that God is more than able to make such statements as found in 15:16 without having exhaustive foreknowledge but rather a complete understanding of the Amorite people ever since their emergence.
God knew the hearts of the Amorites as well as he knows yours and mine and every one else’s since the age of creation. God's perfect knowledge and understanding of the Amorite heart toward Himself could be entirely different from that of His understanding of the hearts of the Kadmonite, or Perizzite, etc., and so move and deal in a manner appropriate to each situation. The nation of Israel for example was comprised soly of Abram at this point and it would take some time before God would—dare I say—need to start dealing with them through the prophets. See Lev.18:24-30 for what happens to “the men of the land who have been before you having done all these abominations and have become defiled…” and the discourse of the LORD that indicates a level of openness to the path Israel will actually pursue…“so that the land will not spew you out.”
Here is no mere PLATONIC FORM of a being. Here remains an all-powerfull (omnipotent), all-knowing (omniscient), transcendent though immanent God who exercises his sovereign will though in complete concurrence with His nature and character to live and move and have his being within us.
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