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Isn't it all scary? You're scared b/c you don't know if you're one of the elect. But if there is no election, you should be scared b/c you may use your free will to screw your life up beyond repair. And God, even though he WANTS you to repent, is powerless to do anything about it.
Just b/c today you know you are a Christian, does not mean that 20 years from now you will be.

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Well, I think it is more wise to focus on the ways I can ensconce myself in the word and within the Church to keep that sort of thing from happening . A belief in election is a crutch relative to accepting the need for me to continue to make choices that will keep me loving Jesus.

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If humans are the only beings responsible for the state of affairs we find ourselves in such that God cannot be "blamed" for evil - by the same token God cannot be "praised" for good. For it is purely human free will which creates the state of affairs, whether they be good or bad.

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I don't think it is that simple. Permitting human volition does not imply that we are responsible for all. Obviously, we aren't responsible for the structure of the universe or the order in dna. The list can go on. Most importantly, we did not defeat Satan, Jesus did. As such, we are not responsible for the slipping grip on the world of Satan. Although, we may have helped him retain his grip longer than needs be.

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I agree with Bob - why would I want to worship a being that is incapable of bringing about the state of affairs he desires? How is a God that can fail and have his desires thwarted by human's free will more powerful than those very humans, and why is he worthy of worship?

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Why would one worship anyone because they are all-powerful? One may bow, but that would be of fear, not a desire to truly give honor.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

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Gregory Nazianzen.

Oration XXVIII.
The Second Theological Oration.

VIII. And how shall we preserve the truth that God pervades all things and fills all, as it is written "Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord," and "The Spirit of the Lord filleth the world," if God partly contains and partly is contained? For either He will occupy an empty Universe, and so all things will have vanished for us, with this result, that we shall have insulted God by making Him a body, and by robbing Him of all things which He has made; or else He will be a body contained in other bodies, which is impossible; or He will be enfolded in them, or contrasted with them, as liquids are mixed, and one divides and is divided by another;-a view which is more absurd and anile than even the atoms of Epicurus and so this argument Concerning the body will fall through, and have no body and no solid basis at all. But if we are to assert that He is immaterial (as for example that Fifth Element which some have imagined), and that He is carried round in the circular movement ... let us assume that He is immaterial, and that He is the Fifth Element; and, if they please, let Him be also bodiless in accordance with the independent drift and arrangement of their argument; for I will not at present differ with them on this point; in what respect then will He be one of those things which are in movement and agitation, to say nothing of the insult involved in making the Creator subject to the same move-merit as the creatures, and Him That carries all (if they will allow even this) one with those whom He carries. Again, what is the force that moves your Fifth Element, and what is it that moves all things, and what moves that, and what is the force that moves that? And so on ad infinitum. And how can He help being altogether contained in space if He be subject to motion? But if they assert that He is something other than this Fifth Element; suppose it is an angelic nature that they attribute to Him, how will they shew that Angels are corporeal, or what sort of bodies they have? And how far in that case could God, to Whom the Angels minister, be superior to the Angels? And if He is above them, there is again brought in an irrational swarm of bodies, and a depth of nonsense, that has no possible basis to stand upon.

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DLW: You asked, why would one worship b/c God is all-powerful? Wouldn't that be based on fear?

I'll reply to both of these. First, why do we worship God? Why is he worthy of worship? If God is not all-powerful, then he is a liar in the Bible, b/c he clearly claims that he is. Would you worship a God who is a liar- and why?

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Look, I don't want to get into a really detailed examination of scriptures and what-not over what it is exactly that God clearly claims that he is. You can interpret passages as implying what you are saying. However, I would contest whether that was what the original meaning of the text is.
I worship God, not because God is in Control and I can fall asleep easier at night or what-not because of that. I worship God because of how my life has changed and how God has moved in history and inspired others to acts of self-lessness on the behalf of others.

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If God is not all-powerful, God can be thwarted. By the devil, by other "gods", perhaps by humans. God is the being which no greater can be conceived - that is necessary if we're talking about monotheism. Bc if you can conceive of a greater being- would not that being be the one deserving of worship? Maybe that being would demand our allegiance. Who would you discern to worship?

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Are you going anselm on me...? God is that being which a greater being cannot be conceived so if there were a greater being then that would be God. The point here is that the governance/ decision-making/ choosing that takes place in the world, in time, is finite, but likely growing(as with the economy). As such, for God to give us freedom of choice, requires that God not be able to determine what the outcome will be in some areas.
Now as I illustrated earlier with the Chess Match analogy, it can be shown that there exists an optimal strategy in Chess that will guarantee one cannot lose. The problem is that Chess is so complicated that only an omniscient being(knowing and considering all future possibilities), as is proximated by Big Blue wrt Chess, could know of such a strategy. But if someone were omniscient and was playing against a non-omniscient being then it can be guaranteed with certainty the conclusion of the match. So, analogously, God cannot be thwarted, even if God permits that others will have the freedom to make some choices.

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Secondly, why do you obey God? Are you obeying for the sake of obedience itself, or is it to obtain eternal life? If worshiping God did not get you eternal life, would you? If there were no consequences from God, people would not be afraid, and many would not feel compelled to worship and obey him.

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I worship God because I have seen God turn my life around and give me hope, a second chance to make up for the mistakes that I have made. Fear of Hell, love of Heaven, may get some people to want to eternal fire insurance, but it doesn't give much incentive to seek to grow in one's walk with God and continue to develop into a more mature Christian.

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If God cannot ultimately punish me, I don't have too much incentive to follow his dictates over my own self-interest. Clearly, and ESPECIALLY if evil is simply gratuitous, there is no "Godly" punishment on this earth for rebellion against God.

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I don't see this as being true. The existence of gratuitous evil doesn't make us not responsible for the evil that we inflict on others. It doesn't mean we won't be separated from God and what God has in store for us...

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So yes, fear of an eternity without God in hell is a motivating factor in peoples' decisions to choose to follow the God of the bible over another "god" or over oneself.

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This really is off-topic for this link, as I perceive it...
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

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May be off topic, but you brought it up ! I guess when you say "separation from God" - if there was no afterlife and no eternal punishment, "separation from God" would be meaningless after one's death.

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Reading this bit from Gregory Naz. some ideas posted on a thread called "Time" came to mind. The thread originator was saying--I think--that Time preceeded God. G.N. is speaking about spatial things rather than temporal. But it sure seems applicable. (from www.ccel.org)

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Gregory Nazianzen.

Oration XXVIII.
The Second Theological Oration.

VIII. And how shall we preserve the truth that God pervades all things and fills all, as it is written "Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord," and "The Spirit of the Lord filleth the world," if God partly contains and partly is contained? For either He will occupy an empty Universe, and so all things will have vanished for us, with this result, that we shall have insulted God by making Him a body, and by robbing Him of all things which He has made; or else He will be a body contained in other bodies, which is impossible; or He will be enfolded in them, or contrasted with them, as liquids are mixed, and one divides and is divided by another;-a view which is more absurd and anile than even the atoms of Epicurus and so this argument Concerning the body will fall through, and have no body and no solid basis at all. But if we are to assert that He is immaterial (as for example that Fifth Element which some have imagined), and that He is carried round in the circular movement ... let us assume that He is immaterial, and that He is the Fifth Element; and, if they please, let Him be also bodiless in accordance with the independent drift and arrangement of their argument; for I will not at present differ with them on this point; in what respect then will He be one of those things which are in movement and agitation, to say nothing of the insult involved in making the Creator subject to the same move-merit as the creatures, and Him That carries all (if they will allow even this) one with those whom He carries. Again, what is the force that moves your Fifth Element, and what is it that moves all things, and what moves that, and what is the force that moves that? And so on ad infinitum. And how can He help being altogether contained in space if He be subject to motion? But if they assert that He is something other than this Fifth Element; suppose it is an angelic nature that they attribute to Him, how will they shew that Angels are corporeal, or what sort of bodies they have? And how far in that case could God, to Whom the Angels minister, be superior to the Angels? And if He is above them, there is again brought in an irrational swarm of bodies, and a depth of nonsense, that has no possible basis to stand upon.

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I find this to be a hard read. Here is the beginning again, though.

And how shall we preserve the truth
that God pervades all things and fills all,
as it is written "Do not I fill heaven and earth?
saith the Lord,"
and "The Spirit of the Lord filleth the world,"
if God partly contains and partly is contained?

The "Time" thread supposed -- again, I think it did -- that God was swallowed within a necessary Time. Time bigger than God. God a result of time?


What would St. Gregory say?

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dlw

Pow, You know I really have no idea why this posting is relevant to this thread.

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