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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > How do Open Theists view the book of Revelation | Forum Quick Jump
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/19/2003 6:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
VW:I do not believe that a pretrib belief would be totally inconsistent with the OV. However, the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation seems to conflict with God not knowing the future exhaustively. These are my only trouble spots. Otherwise, I am convinced that the OV is Scripturally sound.
I have to agree with VW that it is not inconsistent since it dwells on what particular aspects of the future are determined or not. OVT doesn't go into those sorts of particular. It basically says somethings are open. It could be that, while individuals make choices about whether they become saved or not, due to the fallenness of the world, it can be known with certainty that a certain portion of the world will probably not choose to believe and will take on the unfortunate role of the unbelievers depicted in Revelations.
dlw
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From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/19/2003 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | VW,
Another explanation of how the OV might fit even with the pretrib belief is one that I heard a lot growing up in the A/G (though they of course had never heard of Open Theism):
"God will know precisely when the last person who will be saved will be saved, and at that point the Rapture will occur." I think an OVer might express this as "God will know when the last person's character has been solidified towards Him, and (conversely) when no one else will be open to his word, and that is when he will say, enough!"
I agree with you about the pretrib thing--the following article from my discussion group site presents to my mind insurmountable scriptural opposition to the pretrib viewpoint:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kIChPnWGXhN45W7louJgq3B52FRIkt23_jN3hJOKxmMk1ifAyWiyqgBN9HdI1a2GFnjJhpN77gWus5e-/The%20Rapture%20of%20the%20Church
If that link is slow or doesn't work, the article is also at the following:
http://twtministries.com/articles/4_eschatology/rapture.html
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/19/2003 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | In both cases, they take as a given that there will be people who reject Jesus at the end of time(as we understand it). A completely open future would include the possibility that everyone decides to become a Christian, this limits it to the fact that people from all nations will have the opportunity and choose to believe.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/21/2003 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | John and DLW, thanks so much for your responses. John, your discussion group link did not work but I will read the article on the other link you provided. Maybe its not too late to change my views on the rapture though at present I remain a pretribber.
I was reading something interesting over the weekend. I purchased a big thick book titled, The Other Side of Calvinism by Lawrence vance. I have made it through the first three chapters. Vance points out that Augustine (the real father of Calvinism) believed that most of the prophecies in the book of Revelation had been fulfilled. Augustine went so far as believing that Satan was already bound up. I will give the exact quotes from the book at another time (I don't have it with me right now). I found that to be interesting.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/21/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I was reading something interesting over the weekend. I purchased a big thick book titled, The Other Side of Calvinism by Lawrence vance. I have made it through the first three chapters. Vance points out that Augustine (the real father of Calvinism) believed that most of the prophecies in the book of Revelation had been fulfilled. Augustine went so far as believing that Satan was already bound up. I will give the exact quotes from the book at another time (I don't have it with me right now). I found that to be interesting.
I think I remember something about the view that our current time right now could be considered the millenium.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 4/21/2003 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Not to take things to far out...
I could buy that Satan is bound up, us mortals are more than able to do the damage we do without any help.
peace and love, don
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/21/2003 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Not to take things to far out...
I could buy that Satan is bound up, us mortals are more than able to do the damage we do without any help.
peace and love, don
Course, if that were the case then it could justify taking the view that it may be more useful to cope with openness from a "Problem of Order" perspective than a "Spiritual Warfare" perspective as I have argued in the "let's solve the Problem of Evil" forum.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/21/2003 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Here are the Augustine quotes. Here is the one in which he considered the devil to be already bound in his day in fulfillment of Revelation 20:
"Now the devil was thus bound not only when the church began to be more and more widely extended among the nations beyond Judea, but is now bound till the end of the world, when he is to be loosed."
He also believed that the church was presently reigning with Christ:
"Therefore the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him."
Both quotes are from The City of God
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/21/2003 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Now guys, I have serious problems with with accepting Augustine's views. For one thing he was treating the book of Revelation as allegory and not literal fact due to his Alexandrian influences. I am seeing from this forum that some Open theists are amillenial and this is what Augustined seemed to adhere to.
Now Open Theists like Sanders and others dispute with Augustine because of his strong philosophical influences and his habit of interpretting the Bible allegorically (or metaphorically). If we are to take the passages literally concerning God's limited foreknowledge then it only makes sense to me to interpret Revelation the same way.
If Augustine was already in the 1000 year reign of Christ (according to Revelation 20) then we certainly couldn't be in it now. If we have already fulfilled the book of Revelation then as far as I am concerned all hope is lost and we have lost. Look at the mess that our world is in. Is this the new heavens and new earth? Is the New Jerusalem already here? God has things in a big fat mess if we buy into amillenialism.
If we cannot interpret the 1000 years mention in Revelation to mean exactly what it says then I cannot see how we can do as much with the rest of Scripture, including those limited foreknowledge passages. If Augustine was in error by asserting secular philosophy on the Biblical knowledge of God, how could he be right by doing the same with eschatology?
Sorry, but it makes no sense to me. We either believe all of the Bible literally or we all take liscense to interpret what passages or books that we wish at our convenience when it conflicts with our view. That makes us no better than those we have admonished for asserting their neoplatanism on the Bible.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/21/2003 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If we are to take the passages literally concerning God's limited foreknowledge then it only makes sense to me to interpret Revelation the same way.
I believe biblical scholars have done a lot of good work that helps us to identify different genres within the books of the Old and New Testament. The rules for interpretation can and should differ across these genres.
I.e., Revelations is not the same sort of text as the gospels.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/21/2003 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi VW,
Amillenialism is not at all unique to Augustine; as far as I am aware, all the "mainline" Protestant Reformers held to this view. I found it very difficult to take when I first found out that the pretrib view was totally unheard of until the 1830s, and that great men of God like John Wesley were amillenial, while some like Charles Finney went even further and had the audacity to be postmillenial!
As to interpreting Revelation properly, it seems to me that the book is almost completely full of symbolism and obviously nonliteral things. Therefore I am hesitant to accept the idea that it is entirely futuristic (though in fact it may contain some futuristic elements, such as Armageddon, the final judgement, etc.)
On that note, the thing about the millenium is that this one passage in Revelation is the only place in the Bible where this "1000 years" is referred to, and many interpreters have been persuaded that what was being expressed was simply an expression for our ruling and reigning with Christ now. Paul says that we are already "seated with Him in heavenly places." The whole "now and not yet" thing comes into play when trying to understand Revelation.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/22/2003 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John and DLW
I love Charles G. Finney and I count him as one of my heroes. I am a lover of classic writers and teachers. My favorite is Albert B. Simpson (founder of the CM&A). I also love R. A. Torrey, Andrew Murray, F. E. Marsh, C. H. Spurgeon (when he is not espousing Calvinism), E. M. Bounds, S. D. Gordon, Hannah Whitall Smith and many others that would take too much time to list here.
I believe that all of the above were POSTMILLENIAL. Well, they remain my heroes in spite of that one shortcoming  As a matter of fact, A. B. Simpson has a commentary on Revelation (part of his Christ In The Bible Commentary series) that I thought was kind of "out there." While he was an excellent expositor of Scripture, I think he should have stayed away from eschatology.
Whatever the reasons for amillenialism I cannot accept it. Whatever scholarly support there is for it really has no bearing with me. I became interested in the Open View primarily because of the SCRIPTURAL presentation and not because of the scholarship that backed it (though the scholarship did help the Scriptures were the primary reason for my strong interest. Otherwise I would not even be considering it or contemplating it and would not be on this forum).
With all of the demonic activity in the world, I cannot see how Satan could be bound in the pit at this time. This is something I'm afraid no one could convince me to change my mind on (and I otherwise consider myself to be a teachable person). While man is ultimately responsible for the evil in the world (Romans 5:12), there are demonic forces that are causing things to happen. Another reason for my wanting to embrace the Open View was that this was one area I believed for years and Dr. Boyd's book, God At War strengthened that resolve.
Well guys, thanks again. God bless.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/22/2003 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Again VW,
With a few exceptions, I honestly don't see how one's eschatology really makes a practical difference in the Christian life. (I know that sounds heretical of me to say, but as an Open Theist and MGT advocate I am hardly afraid of being called a heretic). I also am definitely not trying to do anything other than bring up some other ideas with regard to eschatology that may mesh more easily with the Open view. What I mean is that no matter what one's eschatology is, one must live a life of accountability to God and fellow man. As my grandfather (a staunch A/G pretribber) used to say, "We should live as if He could come back today, and plan as if we have the rest of our lives to occupy until he comes."
For the amillenialist like Wesley, one must still live a holy life of radical discipleship to Jesus Christ, for the Judgement Seat of Christ awaits. It is also important to note that amillenialists do believe in a time of trouble at the end of time and a real Second Coming of Christ at the end of this present age. As to the "Satan is already bound" idea propagated by Augustine, I would of course agree with you, but from what I know I don't think the Amillenial view stands or falls on that one point. Generally speaking, amillenialism tends to simply view the "millenium" as a spiritual kingdom rather than a literal one; therefore, a literal 1000 years is not essential to amillenialism.
For the postmillenialist like Finney, one must live a holy life of radical discipleship to Jesus Christ for the same reason as above, in addition to the possibility of helping establish the Kingdom of God on earth through our efforts. (This was one reason Finney was so adamant about the abolition of slavery. He viewed it as helping bring the righteous rule of God to the United States). While I of course disagree with Brother Finney on this point, I have to admit there is something good and empowering (though a bit dangerous too) in believing one has a hand in setting up the kingdom of God. The charismatic movement had a big wave of postmillenialism (Kingdom Now) teaching back in the 80s; I'm really not sure whatever became of it, though. ;)
For the posttribber, one must live the same kind of life of total discipleship to Christ for the same reasons as above, and may likely have to give his life for what he believes in (because he does not expect an escape from hardship whatsoever).
For the pretribber, he may forego any real long-term planning for his future, and may spend his time reading the "Left Behind" series and staying up on all the latest from Hal Lindsey and the prophecy groups. Because Jesus is going to come and bail him out before things get really bad in the world, he can overlook the starving children in other countries on the basis that it's all part of the doomed, corrupted world system that is being set up for the Antichrist to rule over. The above are from my personal experience of having been a pretribber and seeing how many of my friends and personal acquaintances have acted based on on the pretrib belief.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/23/2003 01:05:09 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/23/2003 3:48 AM (GMT -6) | | John, you said: "With a few exceptions, I honestly don't see how one's eschatology really makes a practical difference in the Christian life. (I know that sounds heretical of me to say, but as an Open Theist and MGT advocate I am hardly afraid of being called a heretic)."
I totally agree with you. I guess because I still see Revelation as futuristic that it was seeming to hold me back from completely diving in to being a full-fledged OVer. I am now realizing that though the discussions have helped me tremendously, I need more time in prayer. I can say that I am probably still about 95% an OVer.
Also because I am a moderate Word-of-Faith proponent, I am also very used to being labeled a heretic as well
(That's another subject entirely, something I want to tackle as well but not on this thread). Therefore, to add the OV to my belief system does not scare me as long as I have firm support for my beliefs in Scripture.
If I am going to be labeled heretical for something, I would at least like to know that I have my backing in Scripture. That way I can handle any persecution. I have had to chuck a belief or two over the years, not because it was being criticized, but because I could not find any Scriptural support for it. I have held on to many beliefs for the same reason (being able to find ample Scriptural support for them) in spite of the criticism launched at them.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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