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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 5/16/2003 11:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm interested in the OVer's take on these verses. Does God ordain government?
John 19
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
1 Peter 2 13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
Rom 13: 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Romans 13:6
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[ 9:17 Exodus 9:16] | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/16/2003 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm interested in the OVer's take on these verses. Does God ordain government?
John 19
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
1 Peter 2 13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
Rom 13: 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Romans 13:6
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[ 9:17 Exodus 9:16]
I interpret Paul's statements in light of Jesus's statements in Matthew where after renaming simon as peter, he describes how the Church will beat down the gates of hades. That and when Satan is tempting Jesus in the desert and offers him earthly power, saying it was his to give him.
Too much of history confirms how fallen leadership can multiply the impact of sinfulness thousandfold.
In my view, Paul's statements reflect his recognition of the problem of order, the good the Roman Empire does provide and the futility of trying to fight it on its own terms.
As a catholic friend of mine liked to say, "God can still use sinful leaders." To which I replied, "So can Satan!"
So my answer would be, it is possible with every given instance of what appears to us to be a fallen leadership being there to serve som greater purpose as deigned by the Creator, but this need not be the case.
In my view, if God is exhaustively in control, then it is too easy to portray any attempt to change the fallen leadership of this world as going against the will of God. Order is not the end-all-be-all of virtues for gov'ts.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/16/2003 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | In my political economy post, I present a very open, indeterminate view of who gains control of the gov't...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/17/2003 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't think we can hold Paul to such drastic meaning: ALL governments are ALWAYS ordained by God. If we tried to do so, the only thing that would hold up is that the concept of government is ordained by God (despite how awry it may go), but I don't think this is what Paul was saying.
Clearly, in the context of the Romans 13 passage, the issue is Christians needing to obey the laws of the land; laws that should be advantageous to living a quiet and peacable life. One has no worries if this is the case. But commit a crime, and you will pay. This is the thrust of the passage. To turn Paul's statement (and thus his context) into a universal, unconditional statement is bad exegesis, if you ask me. It really is clear IF we are willing to use common sense and context, I believe.
Starkman
Am I right? I say, am I right?
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/17/2003 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 5/17/2003 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm interested in the OVer's take on these verses. Does God ordain government?
John 19
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
Hey RD,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I hear you asking is whether God "ordains" governments as in "exhaustively controls" governments, right?
I think Paul's writings could be understood to mean God has "ordained" governments in the general sense that, given our Fallen condition, we need (and God ordains) governments to maintain at least some level of order and avoid a Hobbesian jungle.
I think John 19:11 should be read in light of Matt. 26:53:quote:
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"
From this perspective, it is really quite ironic when Pilate says to Jesus, "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
Jesus seems to reply, "You don't realize that I am the Son of God, the omnipotent Creator, your Creator, who could send twelve legions of angels to save me from this crucifixion. While it is true that you have the power to free me or crucify me, you only have this power to the extent God allows. Thus, ultimately, whatever power you may have, Pilot (or whatever power anyone may have) is 'from above'. However, I have submitted to God's will to allow you, Pilot, to hand me over for crucifixion."
I don't see that any of this implies that God exhaustively controls governments.
Thanks,
JET
Edited by - JET on 05/17/2003 1:38:36 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 5/19/2003 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't know where this notion of "exhaustively controlling" comes from - that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about God, in his permissive will, allowing, or "ordaining", leaders. When Christ says to Pilate - you only have as much power as God allows you - to me it seems obvious then that God COULD revoke that power if he so chose.
According to the OV, is it not true that God could NOT revoke the power b/c he'd be interfering with freedom? Or why would he revoke the power, if he didn't know how Pilate would use it?
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/19/2003 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I don't know where this notion of "exhaustively controlling" comes from - that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about God, in his permissive will, allowing, or "ordaining", leaders. When Christ says to Pilate - you only have as much power as God allows you - to me it seems obvious then that God COULD revoke that power if he so chose.
According to the OV, is it not true that God could NOT revoke the power b/c he'd be interfering with freedom? Or why would he revoke the power, if he didn't know how Pilate would use it?
If a parent cuts their child's allowance in half or by two-thirds, they are not revoking their free-will, just their ability to exercise their free-will. God may permit/assist certain people to acheive certain posts(like a professorship in Mexico) but what they do with their freedom when they get there need not be exhaustively determined(Don't tell my university I'm still posting to this website...) and the post/power can always (gulp!) be taken back.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/19/2003 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Reasonable:
quote:
According to the OV, is it not true that God could NOT revoke the power b/c he'd be interfering with freedom? Or why would he revoke the power, if he didn't know how Pilate would use it?
Remember: man is not totally free. Give some thought to, and a re-reading of, those first few chapters in Genesis. Man's freedom is very limited. It's primary concern is being able to choose or not to choose loving and serving God. This is the foundation; the rest of the freedom hinges on this concept along with some generalities of freedom in order to live. But it ends pretty much there.
Starkman
Am I right? I say, am I right?
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/19/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Reasonable:
quote:
According to the OV, is it not true that God could NOT revoke the power b/c he'd be interfering with freedom? Or why would he revoke the power, if he didn't know how Pilate would use it?
Remember: man is not totally free. Give some thought to, and a re-reading of, those first few chapters in Genesis. Man's freedom is very limited. It's primary concern is being able to choose or not to choose loving and serving God. This is the foundation; the rest of the freedom hinges on this concept along with some generalities of freedom in order to live. But it ends pretty much there.
Starkman
I would disagree with the language above regarding how limited our freedom is. I don't think we know just what we are capable of above and beyond what has currently manifested itself...
It's an empirical question!
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/19/2003 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | DWL,
I'm only speaking (in the previous post) about the present, about the creation. First and foremost: God created man to be in relationship with Him. Man could choose not to, but this pushes the point even more. I guess I wouldn't say that all freedom rides on this, but I would definitely say that without the first premise, there's nothing left worth talking about in regard to that portion of remaining freedom.
Now, if man were free to love or not love God AND still have his cake and eat it too (vis., live in an eternity without God but in total bliss or at least without fear of punishment, darkness, etc.), then that portion of remaining freedom would mean something without the first premise in place. This is usually what most non-Christians want: "I don't want to serve God. I want to serve myself, period, and not pay for it with any consequences. Sad, but true.
Starkman
Am I right? I say, am I right?
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