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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Laika - Jesus was God incarnate. Humans are not. I don't see the comparison.
Even if I grant that people can always choose the good, then it is not a metaphysical impossibility that God could have chosen to create or actualize only those persons who freely choose the good, thus avoiding hell altogether - since no one would rebel. Then of course we would not have the problem of evil either, since there would be no evil.
Like Meph is saying though, that must be a metaphysical impossibility, or else GOd WOOULD have done it that way, since he says his desire is that all be saved. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Laika - Jesus was God incarnate. Humans are not. I don't see the comparison.
MephEternal is talking about heaven. We will be like Jesus in heaven. He is the firstborn among many.
"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | ...A message from Jack...
Dear MephEternal,
I was just over at my friend Adam’s house for tea, and he was telling me about this interesting thread you’ve gotten started here, chap. Please allow me to throw in my sixpence from his laptop here. I do hope the blasted thing doesn’t lock up again.
Anyway, let’s cut to the chase. If a game is to be played, it must be possible to lose it. If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, NO ONE CAN MAKE THAT SURRENDER BUT HIMSELF (though many can help him to make it) and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully “All will be saved”. By my reason retorts, “Without their will, or with it?” If I say “Without their will”, I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say “With their will,” my reason replies “How if they WILL NOT give in?”
The demand that God should forgive such a man while he remains what he is, is based on a confusion between condoning and forgiving. To condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But FORGIVENESS NEEDS TO BE ACCEPTED AS WELL AS OFFERED IF IT IS TO BE COMPLETE: and A MAN WHO ADMITS NO GUILT CAN ACCEPT NO FORGIVENESS.
In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of Hell, is itself a question: “What are you asking God to do?” To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? BUT HE HAS DONE SO, ON CALVARY!! To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does.
Your friend,
C.S. Lewis
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Laika
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Think about what being “like Christ” is, Laika. Doc would say that Jesus Christ was such that even though Jesus was “free” to sin, his character was such that he would NOT sin. Sound familiar? Compatibilistic freedom! THAT’S what our perfection is about. Getting to the point where our freedom of action is DETERMINED by an acquired CHARACTER that prevents us from sinning.
Jesus' character was not determined. It was the result of His continual obedience. Do think He could have sinned? If NOT, how can He claim He can come to my aid when I am tempted and that He was tempted just like me?
Hebrews 4:15
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."
Philippians 2:8
"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."
Doesn't sound very deterministic
Edited by - Laika on 07/02/2003 12:36:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | RD,
RE: So after death, in heaven, what happens to free will?
Answer: In Eternity, it could very well be the case (indeed it is) that the free decisions made pre-resurrection/judgment echo throughout eternity somewhat (but not entirely) like a dream echoes what we do in waking life. Ergo, we made the free decision for Eternal life with the Father during this life.
Also, what if Eternity is not the linear progression of time we experience now to where we can say “Today choose Christ, tomorrow I won’t,” ? If it is non-linear, that would further support the idea that Heaven (and Hell) will be an eternal echo of our FREE decision.
It’s VERY important, when speaking of the afterlife, NOT to be restricted by thinking of it in terms of a 4 dimensional experience. Physicists have stated that there MUST be AT LEAST 12-dimensions for Quantum mechanics and electromagnetism to be simultaneously true. Think outside the box…impossible as that may seem sometimes!
--adam
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One Love
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| Posted 7/2/2003 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Dearest, Most Eloquent Mr. Lewis,
I stand marveled to get such a letter from you, good sir! I have had the pleasure of reading some of your works, but not as many as I would like. It’s amazing how often I find myself discussed in them, implicitly. At any rate, I will not waste your valuable time with chatter. The solar powered time machine and computer through which you sent this correspondence is, no doubt, taxing itself to its limits, so I’ll be brief.
Sir, I would agree completely with you about the will, insofar as it’s being central to the discussion. However, if you will pardon my trespass (I will continue with great dread and trepidation), I think that you may be missing something very important. Dare I say that you deal adequately with VOLITION, but decidedly inadequately with MOTIVATION behind volition. But, good Mr. Lewis, it is this with which compatibilism has its dealing. In short, I ask not that God merely condone anything. I am wondering (out loud, of course) why it is metaphysically impossible that God provide the MOTIVATION that moves a being’s will to do what GOD wills! This, suffice it to say, goes quite beyond a mere empowerment by the Holy Ghost. It moves into deep waters, good sir, that mediocre minds like myself…and even great minds like your own…can barely peer into lest we go mad. It paradoxically implies that God can MOVE us to WILL God’s will, such that it is truly not US that provides the impetus, but God. A form of hypnotism, if I must us some oversimplified form of analogy.
Before you grow too angry with one such as I who would dare trounce upon free will, please bear a little longer with your humble servant and admitted mental inferior. What this means is that God is actually metaphysically able to so move the poor souls in “hell” such that they make the CHOICE to love God. Surely this is not SELF-determination at all. But the potential results are fascinating! A universalism is truly possible…without sinking to the depth of cheaply condoning evil. This taken, it is truly possible for God to be “all in all” rather than some grotesque idea of wispy wraithes that forever wail silent screams of empty agony while being everyone and no one. A POX, I say, on any who would think the Glorious, Wonderful, Majestic God would do any such thing. Let them be anathema to ones such as us, my good master.
Well, I have taken up far too much of your time. I would wager that there is still one more work involving Narnia for you to finish. I bid you “adieu” and wish all the best to you and yours in the times to come. And I wish you godspeed…for you never know what tempters with theological training may lurk about seeking whom they may devour. M.Divs. Pah. Manipulators of Divination to be sure. Stay away from them, my lord. You will not regret following my advice. Be well in your God.
Ever ravenously yours,
The REAL Uncle Screwtape aka Sir Mephistopheles, the Eternal
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Laika
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| Posted 7/2/2003 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt
quote:
So after death, in heaven, what happens to free will?
RD, here's my thought:
Satan chose to rebel -- free will
Adam and Eve chose to disobey -- free will
Jesus chose to obey -- free will
us -- free will
Jesus in heaven -- free will
us in heaven -- free will
see a pattern? What makes anyone think it will be any different?
free-will forever
Will we choose to rebel in heaven? We'll be like Christ, who could have disobeyed but chose not to. No reason for us to switch to robots.
"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | My Dear Screwtape,
What a treat to hear from you again! But marvel not, dear fellow. I’m getting rather tired of all this deification of myself that seems to be happening nowadays…C.S. Lewis conference this, C.S. Lewis conference that…. Blarney! I’m just a bloke like the next one! Oh, and please call me “Jack.”
Regarding what you are saying about MOTIVATION, I will restate something that I said in my last post, very similar to what Adam has already mentioned twice that has gone unanswered: the “hypnotism” you mention happened at CALVARY. It is a free gift, a gift that promises eternal joy…WHAT COULD POSSIBLY YEILD MORE MOTIVATION THAN THAT, I ask you? Yet we still rebel, we still refuse His offer. I simply cannot understand why you insist that there needs to be something more attractive than our Christ’s sacrifice? You actually believe that there could be something that tastes sweeter than that?
What else - besides gift of eternal joy made free by His own death - do you recommend that he put at the end of the stick? Dear fellow, if you are not moved by the Cross, you will never be moved.
-Adam and Jack.
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One Love
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| Posted 7/2/2003 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm…
HC:
quote:
Regarding what you are saying about MOTIVATION, I will restate something that I said in my last post, very similar to what Adam has already mentioned twice that has gone unanswered: the “hypnotism” you mention happened at CALVARY. It is a free gift, a gift that promises eternal joy…WHAT COULD POSSIBLY YEILD MORE MOTIVATION THAN THAT, I ask you? Yet we still rebel, we still refuse His offer. I simply cannot understand why you insist that there needs to be something more attractive than our Christ’s sacrifice? You actually believe that there could be something that tastes sweeter than that?
I don’t think your catching it. You are refering to an incentive more than anything else. You are saying that Calvary represents the best INCENTIVE that anyone could ever receive to may the free choice for Christ. Cool. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about God basically compatibilistically MAKING people WANT to WANT to seek God. Like hypnosis. Check the Shawshank Redemption analogy from Brandon that I tweaked.
I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here.
Holla,
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 7/2/2003 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph Man,
You've been watching "The Matrix" one too many times haven't you? 
I would agree with you that it is metaphysically possible for there to be a post-probationary period compatibilistic compulsion to occur. In the way that I think of compatiblistic determinism, I think of God "using" someone's solidified will/character for his purposes. In this case, it would be to love God. But even here you place some sort of time frame on a PROBATIONARY PERIOD. What happens in the end when that person still does not love God even as hand_carved says, when they don't do so NOW?
I would also agree with you that love would not be genuine in the sense that Greg wants it. All that would matter is the great big cosmic pie in the sky lie, right? Isn't this what you are in effect saying? It doesn't matter that if people are living in reality or not? It seems to me that if we are going to have any compatibilistic determination going on, that it would not be merely for the effect (hypnosis) for ourselves believing we genuinely love God (He would know) we all know, they would not TRULY be loving. Besides, if God were to compatibilistically compel or intervene such that the end is what God wanted in the beginning (some theologians actually say better), then why would there be sin at all? Can't compatibilistic freedom work the other way?
Lastly, I don't see why my analogy has to just serve up a nice piece of "solidified character" pie. Can it not be a POSSIBLITY as well and therefore genuine? Also, I've seen a couple of movies (especially war movies) where a person sees an atrocity (men, women and children are annihilated) and he is told to keep quiet about it or else he will be executed. It will cost him his life. He will pay dearly. Yet, something within his psyche tells him that "truth" is more important than even his own life. Something tells him that "truth is better than a lie." In your scenario, the agents may not be able to tell a truth from a lie, but this doesn't seem to be how human agents are. We can tell this difference. And it would seem to me that after ALL probationary periods are done, people would rather know the truth than live a lie. Again, I think hand_carved words are important here:
quote:
My point is that in reality the $3 mill offer is already on the table NOW, but humanity does not accept it.
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
Edited by - BBBCanada on 07/02/2003 2:53:13 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/2/2003 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: So, here’s my question…
If God has the power to do this type of compatibilistic determination, why doesn’t God use it such that people who would have self-solidified themselves against God would “love” God, after the end of all probationary periods.
Tom: Hey big guy. Haven't read all the posts here. My break officially starts this weekend, so...
My immediate response is simple: God can do the compatibilistic determination thing provided it is consistent (i.e., compatible) with the character, or direction, into which a person has freely solidified herself. So, God can compatibilistically direct a freely chosen hardened Babylon as an instrument of judgment against Israel, but God can't "compatibilistically" direct a hardened Babylon to love Israel (or to love God). Such a move on God's part would move the will in the opposite (i.e., incompatible) direction of the fixed will and character. It moves the agent against the grain of what she has freely chosen to be.
So, in hell, God cannot, I assume, compatibilistically direct hardened sinners to love him. What is "compatible" about that? Nothing. It's the precise opposite of "compatible." To cause those who are fixed in their rejection of God to love God would be to cause them to do what is "incompatible" with what THEY have freely chosen to become. It would seem then that your suggestion tosses out one of Doc's six thesis: the finiteness of human free will.
Springs questioned this in her response as well and I don't see that your reponse to her faced the issue. You responded to her, "all that God would be doing by operating on us in the compatibilistic fashion would be to REMOVE our false selves and causing us to live as our true selves." Right. But this is precisely the problem, for such an "operation" is quite incompatible with what we have made ourselves. There's nothing compatible about removing our freely chosen false selves and causing us to live as we did NOT choose to. Springs is right. This is just straight up deterministic control, which cannot result in genuine "love" for God.
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 07/02/2003 4:44:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I think there's a false dichotomy here - saying God can't force those who hate him to love him. How many people really hate God aside from some Satanists, mass murderers, whatever? Most people would say they love God, but many are not of the Christian religion. Jews, Muslims, etc. all believe they are loving God and doing what is right. Many people are atheist or agnostic and simply don't believe there's enough evidence for God to exist.
At the end judgment, when these people "see" the truth - how many of them would not say they do want to love and be with God but they had the "wrong" religion or beliefs during their lifetime? They repent at that time and do want God. It's not that they hate God and don't want to be with Him. God wouldn't be forcing anyone, just revealing the reaality to them. Most of them would choose God, I'd venture. Few would actually say, "OK, now I see I was wrong. But I don't love you GOd, I'd rather be on the side of Satan and burn in hell than be forced to go worship you."
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika - if free will exists for eternity, how can you know that sin and rebellion won't enter into heaven -as it did w/ Lucifer and his angels?
See here's the point. Free willers argue that free will is the solution to the problem of evil. That evil is a necessary result of free will, in other words God couldn't do it any other way if he wanted freely chosen love for him. So why then, in heaven, is evil not going to be a possibility as well? You've totally missed or ignored my point that if in heaven there is free will and yet there is no possibility of evil or rebellion, then metaphysically God could have created earth like that. But he didn't.
You either have to argue that free will is finite and ends at death, or you could come around to the compatibilist camp.
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
At the end judgment, when these people "see" the truth - how many of them would not say they do want to love and be with God but they had the "wrong" religion or beliefs during their lifetime? They repent at that time and do want God. It's not that they hate God and don't want to be with Him. God wouldn't be forcing anyone, just revealing the reaality to them. Most of them would choose God, I'd venture. Few would actually say, "OK, now I see I was wrong. But I don't love you GOd, I'd rather be on the side of Satan and burn in hell than be forced to go worship you."
Philip Yancey one time said that faith may produce miracles but miracles do not necessarily produce faith. We have already seen this scenario when Christ was physically present (besides the OT). It is possible after probationary periods (plural, if there is more than one) that some will be so hardened that no matter what they see, they will continue to deny God. There is simply no convincing them. It is not a head problem but a heart problem.
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:19 AM (GMT -6) | | I totally disagree. Heart problem, not head problem? Well Christians have heart problems too. The only difference is they are saved by the blood of Christ. I don't know of any perfect Christians or anyone who doesn't sin on a regular basis- even Paul said that he did the things he didn't want to do, etc. Christians aren't any more moral than Jews or Muslims, atheists or Hindus, etc.
If the problem is that these people, while living, happened to grow up in a different culture or environment where the "truth" is hidden from them for whatever reason (or the people in Africa who've never heard of Christ,etc) - and the truth is then revealed at the end, I don't see why they would not accept it.
You have to admit the revealed truth we have now is not simple to grasp- you 've got Christian theologians arguing about everything from the attributes of God to the existence of hell, from the infallibility of the Bible to only inspiration, from salvation by grace alone or through "decision theology'- or grace acting with works- the list goes on and on.
You can say- well we all agree on the basics. Do we? I'm not so sure. Depends on what the basics are. Many evangelicals think that Open Viewers don't agree on the basics.
It's a quagmire - and I don't think Christians should arrogantly presume that those of other or no religions have heart problems more than Christians do. Why is it so hard to believe that people intellectually may not believe in the truth of Christ, whether b/c of their upbringing, their education, their location, not having heard, etc.?
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. I think I was misunderstood. Not much more to say than that.
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon and Tom – really good stuff!
I gotta throw this in … what if it is NOT metaphysically possible for people to “change their mind” after the judgment? Everything that I’ve read concerning the finality of the afterlife seems to paint a picture of the Eternal situation as being a sort of echo of what we do with our free will in this temporal reality. We may only shout one word in this Grand Canyon. If we shout “Yes” to God, Eternity will echo our Yes. But if we shout “No,” it will echo our No.
Example: what a person dreams about is based upon the structure of reality they experienced while awake. When asleep, a person cannot alter the reality they experienced while awake. They dream about the reality they experienced, and there’s nothing they can do about it. They are helpless at that point. Perhaps Eternity is the same way. The matrix of reality and the free decisions you made in that reality will echo forever, whether “Yes” or “No.” And there’s nothing you can do about it.
-HC
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Perhaps it would be best for us to examine the texts instead of philosophically meandering like we are?
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Hand-Carved, I understand what you're saying about it not being metaphysically possible to change one's mind after death. That in fact probably makes the most sense. But if we say that, then we can't say that people are staying in hell b/c they really want to, or that's their character, or they are rejecting God. It's just that there's no choice or chance at that point for them- even if they repent and want to go be with God.
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hand_carved
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| Posted 7/2/2003 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | RD,
Thanks for the response!
quote:
It's just that there's no choice or chance at that point for them- even if they repent and want to go be with God.
Is it not possible that the time-space continuum is arranged at that point in such a way that time is no longer a linear experience, but an "eternal now?" Stephen Hawkings explains that being in a black hole would have similar experience of time. If that was so, "relief" for people in Hell would not be possible. No progression of A then B then C; it is simply A and it will be forever A -- the Now.
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Laika
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| Posted 7/2/2003 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Laika - if free will exists for eternity, how can you know that sin and rebellion won't enter into heaven -as it did w/ Lucifer and his angels?
To the extent that Jesus could have sinned here on earth, exists the potential for future rebellion to occur in heaven. Actually Jesus had a more difficult time of it, being in the earthly environment, enemy territory. In heaven we'll be in God's territory.
Lucifer and his angels didn't go through the refinement by fire that we are all going through.
Stop me when I start making sense...
"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
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Leila
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| Posted 7/2/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry to interrupt this interesting discussion, but...
It seems that the general rationale here for why it's "fair" for people to go to hell is because God gives us free will to make the choice to love or reject Him.
I'd like to focus on a point that RD made:
quote:
Most people would say they love God, but many are not of the Christian religion. Jews, Muslims, etc. all believe they are loving God and doing what is right.
This is what really bothers me. Millions and millions of people do CHOOSE God and do LOVE God and pursue Him in the only way they know how -- yet, for a multitude of reasons (culture, family, etc.) they do not follow JESUS.
So isn't going to hell much more complicated than a simple refusal to love God; isn't it more an issue of not understanding or accepting God's love through His Son? And since we are all not equally situated in life to understand or appreciate the gospel message, aren't some much more free than others to accept Jesus? Where's the fairness in that?
Edited by - Leila on 07/02/2003 4:40:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/2/2003 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila- It's not fair. That's why I find it ironic that Arminians and OV'ers criticize Calvinists for their view of God's bestowed grace- which they perceive as being unfair.
But it's also unfair if people are not on equal playing grounds on earth. It's not fair to condemn someone for not ever hearing the Gospel through no fault of their own, for having a low intelligence and not being able to comprehend the Gospel, for being an innocent baby, for being born into a repressive Muslim environment where conversion is grounds for death, etc etc.
That's another one of the reasons I don't buy free will - b/c it fails to solve the "unfairness problem" that many people think is inherent in Calvinism.
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Leila
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| Posted 7/2/2003 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for responding RD. That's exactly the problem that I am having as I am exploring the Open View. Whether or not the OV is right, I am still trying to understand why God giving us free will makes Him "off the hook" for some people going to Hell. Sure, there are easy cases where people may actually choose to spend their life professing their hatred of God, praising the devil, whatever. But I would like to know what the OV'ers say about those who are not Christians, but who live their lives in a genuine attempt to please God. Do they say that those God-loving, God-fearing non-Christians are destined to hell because they have "freely chosen" to reject God through His son?
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Tom
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| Posted 7/2/2003 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Leila: So isn't going to hell much more complicated than a simple refusal to love God; isn't it more an issue of not understanding or accepting God's love through His Son? And since we are all not equally situated in life to understand or appreciate the gospel message, aren't some much more free than others to accept Jesus? Where's the fairness in that?
Tom: Hi Leila (still my favorite Arabic name for a girl).
I suppose you could argue that hell is a lot more complicated than just not loving God because of the examples RD gave regarding non-Christians who want and attempt to love God according to the understanding they have. On the other hand, depending on how one believes God deals with such people, it's not really any more complicated than loving God.
I do entertain the hope that those who have never heard the gospel DO have an opporunity to experience God's loving forgiveness and the gift of life. So I don't see that RD's criticism of Arminians and OVers applies to me (or to others who share the same hope). In the end if a person does not enjoy unending life in God's presence, we have every reason to believe that the fault lies entirely with them. If we are justified in trusting God, then we can have peace about the fate of human beings.
But the question still remains: What about those who DO justly deserve to go to hell (whatever hell is)? That's Mephi's question. Assuming there is a hell and some people deserve it go there, and assuming their wills and characters are "fixed" in their rejection of truth and love (in whatever form they knew it and rejected it), why can't God just "presto" zap them and "make" them good? He's God. Why can't, or why wouldn't, God do this for all those who justly deserve hell?
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 07/02/2003 5:21:05 PM
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