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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/3/2002 8:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dave,
Good deal, then. We'll work through it, we will!
Starkman
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/4/2002 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | POW: Thanks so much...you are a wealth of information that I am pleased you are sharing with the rest of us. I take back all I have said about your long posts...hahaha...
I am been interested in getting some stuff on Pelagius, partly because I have been called a semi follower of his so many times I wanted to know what he taught. But also just because I am curious...
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 1/5/2002 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Augustine's reply to Pelagius is good information about Pelagius:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/npnf105/htm/i.htm
The introduction by Warfield is superb! (though I haven't finished reading it yet).
God bless you,
Lee
P.S. I'm not a scholar, I just have a set of CDs that have lots of good material on them, and put all my material under Adobe Acrobat, so I can search them!
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2002 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Augustine's reply to Pelagius is good information about Pelagius:
And, of course, quite biased.
Here is a view from another bias:
quote:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_predest_p.cfm
This youthful error of Augustine (i.e., the denial of prevenient grace) is indeed Pelagian, and is the result of an over-logicalness in the defense of free will, making it something autonomous rather than something that cooperates with God's grace; but he incorrectly ascribes it to St. Cassian (who was also wrongly accused in the West of teaching that God's grace is given in accordance with human merit), and Augustine himself then fell into the opposite exaggeration of ascribing everything in the awakening of faith to Divine grace. The true teaching of St. Cassian [see Conferences, XIII], on the other hand, which is the teaching of the Orthodox Church, was something of a mystification to the Latin mind. (p. 38) .... [Speaking of St. Faustus of Lerins, Fr. Seraphim writes:] "Like St. Cassian, he saw grace and freedom as parallel, grace always cooperating with the human will for man's salvation." (p. 56; cf. Phil. 2:12-13).... About St. Faustus, Gennadius writes (ch. 86): "He published an excellent work, 'On the Grace of God through Which We Are Saved,' in which he teaches that the grace of God always invites, precedes and helps our will, and whatever gain freedom of will may attain for its pious effect is not its own desert, but the gift of grace." And later, after comments on his other books: "This excellent teacher is enthusiastically believed in and admired." Clearly, Gennadius defends St. Faustus as an Orthodox Father, and in particular defends him against the charge (often made against St. Cassian as well) that he denies "prevenient grace." The followers of Augustine could not understand that the Orthodox doctrine of synergy does not at all deny "prevenient grace," but only teaches its cooperation with free will. Gennadius (and St. Faustus himself) made a special point of stating this belief in "prevenient grace." (p. 58)
Edited by - potonwheel on 01/05/2002 1:56:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2002 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | See you after a while, Lee and writerdad.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/5/2002 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | POW,
Regarding those cds of yours, see my post in Questions or Comments: TELL US WHAT YOU READ!!!
I'd like to have access to that material, if it's available!
Starkman
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2002 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman, Your giving me Lee's credit.
quote:
Lee Merrill
Posted - 01/05/2002 : 11:33:49 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Augustine's reply to Pelagius is good information about Pelagius:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/npnf105/htm/i.htm
The introduction by Warfield is superb! (though I haven't finished reading it yet).
God bless you,
Lee
P.S. I'm not a scholar, I just have a set of CDs that have lots of good material on them, and put all my material under Adobe Acrobat, so I can search them!
You can order the CD (at least the one I have, and Lee also...) at the www.ccel.org It costs only $29.00. Otherwise it is available on the interet.
Harry Plantinga at Calvin College runs it. (It was put together while he was at Wheaton.) Its great!!
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/6/2002 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Okay,
Thanks POW...I mean Lee...I mean...I...um...!
Yeah!
Okay, I SEE now!
Thanks mucho!
Starkman
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 1/7/2002 1:40 PM (GMT -6) | | One other resource I use a lot is the AGES Digital library, available from http://www.christianbook.com
With a lot of typographical errors, but still lots and lots of good material...
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 01/07/2002 6:42:57 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/7/2002 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | GASP! CHOKE! COUGH!!!
Not...not CALVIN?
AAAAAAAK! RUN FOR YOU LIVS!!!
(I'm just kidding ya!).
Thanks much, Lee.
I appreciate it greatly!
Starkman
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/21/2002 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | This is a little late, but the word that was used in Phi 4:6 is gnwrizesthw (w’s are omegas). It’s a present, passive, imperative. The BAGD translates it: 1. make known, reveal 2. know
The basic meaning is to make known. Of all the choices God already knows as possible, we can make known to God the ones that we want at the present time. When we read all of the Scripture on prayer, we see that prayer does influence God.
The word occurs in these verses. Sorry, KJV only.
Luke 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luke 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1 Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 Co 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:
Phi 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phi 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 4:7 All my state shall Tychicus declare unto you, who is a beloved brother, and a faithful minister and fellowservant in the Lord:
Col 4:9 With Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They shall make known unto you all things which are done here.
2 Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
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rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/22/2002 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob,
I have no problem, I do USE other translations sometimes as a means of commentary.
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/22/2002 8:53 PM (GMT -6) | | rb1963b,
I didn't mean that anyone had a problem with the KJV. I just don't like it the way it translates some aorists, perfects, and present tenses.
I was apologizing for giving the word in the KJV, but it would have been too much work to get those verses in the NKJV, which I prefer.
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 03/23/2002 01:55:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Kyle Essary
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 3/23/2002 8:31 PM (GMT -6) | | I think to say that "make known" means that God doesn't know them is to deny his PK, and that's dangerous territory  .
rb, I know you are a fan of using a dictionary while you read the Bible (or at least you implied that on another post), but there are many definitions for know. One is:
To have a practical understanding of, as through experience
Although that is what most people think of, another is:
To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct
another is:
To discern the character or nature of
So there are other possible meanings for what this is saying. Anyways, the point of the passage is openness, but it is more open communion with God than OVT.
Kyle Essary
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/24/2002 1:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/26/2002 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | know can also mean sexual relations, but, what does the context state?
Bob Hill,
One question on your idea of Biblical interpretation bothers me. What are we to rely on as final authority? It is a simple question, really. BUT it goes into several other questions. You think that no translation is perfectly reliable. We know that ALL the differing manuscripts (or should I call them copies) differ, thus their being called "differing". We know that all the "versions" are different. Are we to rely on our own minds to interpret the mss? Which one? Do you see where I am going with this? What you believe, when all the dross is blown away, is that there is NOT preservation of the Word of God.
You say "sorry" that you used the King James, and then state that you don't "like" how "they" interpreted certain tenses. NO bible maintains uniform interpretation of tenses, because if they did some serious problems would pop up. You know this as well as I do. How you interpret greek is swayed by your belief system at present, or do you disagree with this observation?
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/27/2002 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | rb1963b-
Let’s see: “RB” are your initials, “1963” is the year you were born, and “b” is for “boy.” You’re a 39 year old male. Am I close? Of course, I could read your profile and find out. But it’s more fun to guess!
About Phil. 4.6, here are a few thoughts:
If one wishes to insist that this verse calls into question the open view because it attributes to God ignorance of present reality, then the same is true for Calvinists and classical Arminians as well. Don’t rush to adopt a view of this verse that you think proves the OV wrong. You may end up proving more than you want to.
Is there a way to understand the phrase “make known to God” that will avoid attributing ignorance to her? I think so.
“Make your requests known to God” is a rather simple deal, I think. I understand Paul to be encouraging us to present our requests to God in prayer. In so doing, I think, we and God become mutually engaged in one another’s lives. The point is that we’re not engaged until the requests are presented to God (whatever may be the truth about God’s foreknowledge of these requests). See the point?
Aren’t our needs known to God before we pray? Certainly. Needs are real and God knows them “as needs.” And aren’t our requests known to God before we present them? Not as requests they aren’t, For a request isn’t a request until we make it a request by presenting it to God in prayer. Hence, God does not know them “as requests” until we present them to her in prayer. This does not attribute to God ignorance of existing realities. Rather, it assumes that reality itself is dynamic and ever-changing. An omniscient God would keep unmediated, infallible, and co-terminous account of the changing state of reality. Our prayers are part of the ever-changing state of reality.
So, God has perfect knowledge of our needs. In fact, she may or may not act to meet our needs before we present them (e.g., God answers Daniel before he presents his requests, but James’ readers “have not because they ask not”). Either way, if God is omniscient, then the only option left us here in v. 6 is to assume that whether or not God foreknows what our requests will be, they do not become requests—and so take their place as instruments of spiritual influence in the world of prayer—until we actually present them to God. I think this tilts the foreknowledge issue in favor of the open view, but the passage does not directly speak to the foreknowledge question
As I understand the verse in its context, we have here a wonderful insight into the place and power of prayer. It is the actual presenting of our requests to which we are encouraged. This in itself says a lot about what God has designed prayer to be, doesn’t it? “Make known your requests to God,” then, means “make your requests known to God ‘as requests’ by actually presenting them to God.” This doesn’t imply informing God of something he’s ignorant of. It implies rather bringing into creation something which did not previously exist—a dynamic engagement of God. That’s what prayer is (at least in the open view).
So, our requests are not “requests” until we make them requests by presenting them to God. When we do so, then God knows them “as requests presented to her” and we find ourselves engaged with God in a conversation that’s as real for God as it is for us.
There’s probably more to say, but I’ll leave it at that for now.
Any thoughts?
Tom
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/27/2002 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | WHAT IF....
What if this is a Liturgical verse. What if it refers to acts of corporate worship, inherited from the Jewish order of service.
Electra? Pia? Can you do some research?
Well, here is the offspring of the same. They are pretty much, just the same thing.
quote:
The following is a diagram of the Divine Liturgy: (This is just part)
*Beginning: The Liturgy starts with a blessing of the Kingdom of God, which includes the Sacred Body of Christ on earth; His Church.
*Petitions: They are small prayers which the priest offers especially for the peace of the world, with the people responding, Kyrie eleison; Lord, have mercy.
*Antiphons:These are readings from the Old Testament, especially from Psalms 102 and 145, with refrains of Christian meanings and specifically references to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
*Entry with the Gospel: This entry represents the ancient practice when the priest took the Gospel by the light of torches from the crypt, an underground safeguard to protect the Gospel from destruction by the pagans, bringing it up to the Church. The priest lifts up the Gospel and exclaims: "Wisdom," which means Christ, and calls the people to worship and bow down to Christ
*Trisagion: A short prayer praising the Holiness of God.
*Readings from the New Testament: (1) A part of the Book of Acts or the Epistles of the Apostles read by the reader. (2) Another section from the Gospels read by the priest. (The specific sections read are determined by the Church and are the same every year.)
*Sermon:It is incorporated as an exhortation from the priest to the people on the Good News of salvation. (The part of the service for the Catechumens is now omitted).
Christian liturgy begins with "Blessed be the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen!"
An invocation.
So, when a little bit later we get:
*Petitions: They are small prayers which the priest offers especially for the peace of the world, with the people responding, Kyrie eleison; Lord, have mercy.
It is not a big deal
This thread is barking up a fence post!!!
Philippians 4: 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Granted, it is the only verse in the section that is about worship/prayer. But that is OK. it sums it up. And they get the reference.
WE are SO individualistic, that we think of those things as being individual, and singular. My Sunday School epitomized Daniel in his prayer closet. But prayer not only individual, it is also corporate.
And THIS discussion, for it to stand logical testing, must fit BOTH individual AND corporate prayers. Otherwise it falls logically.
PRAYER is not just a business or communications transaction! The OV debate treats it AS IF it is. Shame. Prayer is an act of worship.
God is Lord. Creator of heaven and earth. Saying so is worship. Saying so positions US so that WE can begin worship.
God is OUR King. We are his; He is our ONLY.
We make petitions BECAUSE OF and WITHIN the Lordship and Kingship of God.
WE CAN NOT DO OTHERWISE.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Folks, we HAVE to conduct our discussions WITHIN Christianity, and not in a vacuum.
(Note: I'm being 'short' for effect. Sorry!) | | Back to Top | | |
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rb1963b
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Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/27/2002 3:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Where do you get the idea that requests are NEEDS? God does know our NEEDS, but requests can be DESIRES. Desires can be needs but are not needs exclusivly, and vise versa. Desire and need do not have the same meaning. I may desire to play the piano, but it is not a requirement for either physical of spiritual life.
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/27/2002 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Where do you get the idea that requests are NEEDS? God does know our NEEDS, but requests can be DESIRES. Desires can be needs but are not needs exclusivly, and vise versa. Desire and need do not have the same meaning. I may desire to play the piano, but it is not a requirement for either physical of spiritual life.
I don't equate them. In fact, in what I wrote I tried to refer to each separately, admitting that "needs" preexisted our talking to God about them and so were known by God, while "requests" do not preexist our presenting them to God "as requests." We agree on this. Do we agree that "make known your requests to God" does not imply ignorance on God's part and that requests don't become requests until we make them requests by presenting them to God?
------------------
Actually RB, I just read back over what you've been saying in this thread and noticed that you are arguing precislely what I'm arguing. That "requests" don't exist as requests before we present them to God. I totally missed your point earlier, thinking you were arguing against the open view.
Boy am I losing it. 
So, I don't think we disagree at all.
Blessings,
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 03/28/2002 12:41:52 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/28/2002 11:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, your statement should have been written thusly;
"We do not disagree ON THIS MATTER at all."
You could get yourself in some seriously hot water around here if it were passed around that we agree on everything! :)
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/28/2002 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
rb1963b
Abecedarian
99 Posts
Congrats on your upcoming 100th post, Rb. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/29/2002 2:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tom, your statement should have been written thusly; "We do not disagree ON THIS MATTER at all." You could get yourself in some seriously hot water around here if it were passed around that we agree on everything! :)
I agree with you again!
Tom
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rb1963b
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Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/30/2002 4:45 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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B. Winningham
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 3/30/2002 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How could we "make known" something that is already known?
Eventhough GOD knows our present needs and desires, HE loves to see us come to HIM with confidence in prayer. Prayer is the keyword here for "make known." Please compare the following:
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Matthew 15:8-9ff Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
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