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yxboom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/17/2003 9:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | I am presently in a debate with a Calvinist and there were some passages of Scripture brought up used in favor of determinism which I had not been able to find responses at this site or other OVT sites. If anyone has any insight how to address these Scriptures or how they are reconciled with the Open View, I would greatly appreciate it.
quote:
Job 14:5 Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
Acts 17:24-28 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
Edited by - yxboom on 01/17/2003 2:47:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 1/18/2003 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi yxboom. I have a few thoughts regarding these verses that may be of help to you.
quote:
Job 14:5 Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.
In the NIV this verse reads "Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed." From the context it is clearly talking about "man" in a generic sense (cf. 14:1), not about a particular individual. One way to understand this verse that is consistent with the open view is to take it to mean that God has set a limit on the lifespan of people in general (cf. Gen 6:3, "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.'"), not that God has already determined the exact number of days that each person will live.
quote:
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
The NASB puts the verse this way: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." The reference to God's having "separated the sons of man" probably refers to the tower of Babel incident (Gen. 11). Bear in mind that "setting boundaries" is not equivalent to determinism. The boundaries may merely define a scope of freedom. Furthermore, it seems to be saying simply that God has set aside a portion of land for the children of Israel.
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Acts 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him ...
This verse does not teach determinism. At most it shows that God has set boundaries that constrain the freedom of his creatures. Verse 27 can actually be cited in support of the open view, because it says that God did this "in the hope that" people might find Him. If God is determining everything, and has therefore decreed from eternity past exactly which individuals would be saved, then why this talk of God's "hoping"? It seems to me that the open view makes better sense of the text than any deterministic reading.
[quote]Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
What does the phrase "apart from your Father's will" mean? Does it mean that the Father's willing is the sufficient condition for sparrows dying, or does it mean that the Father's willing is a necessary condition for sparrows dying? In the first sense we are talking about God's sovereign will, whereby He determines that something shall come to pass. In the second sense we are talking about God's permissive will, whereby God allows something to happen, but does not necessarily decree that it happen. This second sense is consistent with a denial of determinism.
In summary, it seems clear to me that none of these passages makes a strong case for theological determinism. And one of the passages (Acts 17:27) seems to argue against theological determinism.
Hope that helps in your debate. God bless.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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yxboom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/18/2003 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks a lot Alan for the welcome and help.
I greatly value the insights shared from others regarding such texts and I appreciate the response.
quote:
Posted by: Alan Rhoda
In the NIV this verse reads "Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed." From the context it is clearly talking about "man" in a generic sense (cf. 14:1), not about a particular individual. One way to understand this verse that is consistent with the open view is to take it to mean that God has set a limit on the lifespan of people in general (cf. Gen 6:3, "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.'"), not that God has already determined the exact number of days that each person will live.
Great point, I found myself looking for Gen 6:3 in light of Job 14:1,10.
quote:
Posted by: Alan Rhoda
The NASB puts the verse this way: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." The reference to God's having "separated the sons of man" probably refers to the tower of Babel incident (Gen. 11). Bear in mind that "setting boundaries" is not equivalent to determinism. The boundaries may merely define a scope of freedom. Furthermore, it seems to be saying simply that God has set aside a portion of land for the children of Israel.
This was a little more confusing for me, I immediately brought to mind the God At War I believe ch.4,5 about the boundaries YHWH set over mankind and the angelic battle of and for locations.
quote:
Posted by: Alan Rhoda
This verse does not teach determinism. At most it shows that God has set boundaries that constrain the freedom of his creatures. Verse 27 can actually be cited in support of the open view, because it says that God did this "in the hope that" people might find Him. If God is determining everything, and has therefore decreed from eternity past exactly which individuals would be saved, then why this talk of God's "hoping"? It seems to me that the open view makes better sense of the text than any deterministic reading.
I concur that the expectation and “hope” that God had that the nations would “grope” and find Him are very much in support of the Open View. I would like to continue further in understanding the “preappointed times”.
quote:
Posted by: Alan Rhoda
What does the phrase "apart from your Father's will" mean? Does it mean that the Father's willing is the sufficient condition for sparrows dying, or does it mean that the Father's willing is a necessary condition for sparrows dying? In the first sense we are talking about God's sovereign will, whereby He determines that something shall come to pass. In the second sense we are talking about God's permissive will, whereby God allows something to happen, but does not necessarily decree that it happen. This second sense is consistent with a denial of determinism.
With that would you then say that by the “permissive will” Christ was emphasizing the intimate knowledge care that God has for creation, or do you suggest something other?
quote:
Posted by: Alan Rhoda
In summary, it seems clear to me that none of these passages makes a strong case for theological determinism. And one of the passages (Acts 17:27) seems to argue against theological determinism.
I very much agree with your insight of Acts 17:27. Again I greatly appreciate you taking the time to address these passages. Should they fail to help me in the debate they have sufficiently helped in sharpening my sword and faith. Thanks again.
Peace out.
Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword, and My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, and repay those who hate Me.” ’ | | Back to Top | | |
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