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Bobbie
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 4/21/2003 7:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | Honorman: I would appreciate it if you would list, in your view exactly how the classical view of God and the open view of God differ.
Bobbie: I'll get back at ya on this. Remind me if I forget.
"With God ALL things are possible" Matt. 19:26 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/22/2003 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | It’s not “ALOT” for crying out loud, it’s “A LOT”!
A LOT
A LOT
A LOT
A LOT
A LOT
A LOT
Tom
"Stone me if you'd like" Bobbie
Edited by - TGB on 04/22/2003 08:24:45 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/22/2003 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Bobbie,
I guess it was interesting because DTS certainly isn't Reformed in their theology. For instance, found under "Divine Election", "The fact that God knew under each plan what man would do does not mean that God forced man to do something against his will and then punish him for it." (Chafer/Walvoord, Major Bible Themes, Zondervan, 1974, p 233)
S. Lewis Johnson, while he was at DTS, was the commentator on I Corinthians for the Wycliffe Bible Commentary.
Southern Baptist are 4 point Arminians, because they reject the first 4 points of Calvinism and only hold to OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), which is a variant of perseverance (As in TULIP perserverance).
I got fired from the EFC for the same reason I always get fired. The women don't like what I say, like expounding on the negative influence of short skirts or telling them a coat of paint on an old barn doesn't make it a new barn.
I might also remind you that popularity doesn't necessarily mean the popular person/position is right, like when Joshua and Caleb's position was the right position, even though it was unpopular.
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Bobbie
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 4/22/2003 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Paul,
Hmmm... I don't know enough about DTS to be able to say how reformed they are or are not. I admire some of the men there though- T.Evans, C. Swindoll (no longer there), H. Hendricks. I once thought of going to grad. school there but I'm not fond enough of Texas to do that! 
Paul said: "Southern Baptist are 4 point Arminians, because they reject the first 4 points of Calvinism and only hold to OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), which is a variant of perseverance (As in TULIP perserverance)."
Bobbie: Thanks for explaining.  I didn't know that.
Paul said: I got fired from the EFC for the same reason I always get fired. The women don't like what I say, like expounding on the negative influence of short skirts or telling them a coat of paint on an old barn doesn't make it a new barn.
Bobbie: You tell the women that a coat of paint doesn't make a new barn?  Are you anti-makeup or is this within the context of a talk on character? I agree that short skirts are immodest, and I don't wear them for that reason, but I think we have to be careful not to be legalistic about it too. Maybe it was the way you said it to them?? They must have really been upset for you to get fired... but you said you got fired for that before? What do you do now?
Paul: I might also remind you that popularity doesn't necessarily mean the popular person/position is right, like when Joshua and Caleb's position was the right position, even though it was unpopular.
Bobbie: Yep- good point. Noah was pretty unpopular too... and the prophets! But unpopularity is also not a proof of a person/position being right either. (open theism is not popular with the majority of people... well, Christians that is) Of course, you could also look at it this way: Christianity is not popular with the "world" period. Open theism is not popular with "traditional" Christians. I wonder though... is open theism more popular with a non-Christian than traditional Christianity is?
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/22/2003 6:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Bobbie,
The purpose for "paint" is to cover up the real condition of the barn. There are untold multitudes of real barns that don't have paint and their function isn't reduced a bit. The only biblical example for its use on women is Jezebel.
The real purpose for short skirts is to stir up the baser instincts in men and maybe to make other women jealous.
Howard Hendricks is no longer at DTS either. One of my favorite quotes from Hendricks is, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But, you can feed him salt to make him thirsty!"
I consider myself a Christian and I certainly think God can respond to my prayers spontaneously, else, why pray? Luke 11:8 "I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth."
You may need to reassess your fondness for Texas. I'm a Texan by choice, not by birth!  I farm for a living and have had a house church for the last 10 years. They can't fire me this time!
Edited by - Paul5388 on 04/22/2003 11:21:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 4/22/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul
The purpose for "paint" is to cover up the real condition of the barn. There are untold multitudes of real barns that don't have paint and their function isn't reduced a bit.
Iconoclast
If a barn doesn't have paint on it then we know two things about it:
1. The owner doesn't really care much about it.
2. And we know this because it won't last very long under the elements without some protection.
Just try building a new house with cedar boards and not painting it. The paint doesn't cover up the real condition of the barn, it protects it from the elements and makes it more appealing to look at. Is your house painted? Is your car painted? Do you wear clothes JUST to keep you warm or cold or do you wear clothes that sort of match?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited by - Iconoclast on 04/23/2003 12:34:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobbie
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 4/22/2003 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: Do you mind if I ask what kind of church you now pastor? Do any of the women wear makeup?
I'm not sure what you meant when you were talking about prayer, but I know Texans loooooove their state! I have had several friends from Texas. It's too hot and too tornado-y for me! But I've heard that Austin is a really nice place!
How exactly did you stumble across this website (these forums)?
"With God ALL things are possible" Matt. 19:26 | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 4/22/2003 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | |
Paul: The real purpose for short skirts is to stir up the baser instincts in men and maybe to make other women jealous.
Shell: OR...maybe it's hot in Texas?
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/22/2003 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Bobbie,
The reference to prayer is usually one of the concepts of Open Theism, i.e. God is "open" to prayer and responds without the response being foreordained. Importunity, of course, is returning with a need until there is a positive response.
House church implies no denomination and probably prefers being referred to as just being "Christian". We call ourselves the Christian Fellowship. Since we have some Mennonite/Amish ways, we don't approve of makeup or jewelry on either sex My wife wears a head covering every day because of her own conviction and I agree with her wearing a head covering during church services (and so does Ryrie and Johnson).
Austin is a new age stronghold, as are most college towns and not what I would choose. I live 7 miles from a town of 525 and that may be too close! I consider anything North of I 20 to be part of the frozen North! I haven't built a fire in the airtight in over a month!
A Google search for Open Theism brings this board up.
Iconoclast,
You may need to brush up on the attributes of cedar and other unpainted wood. Cedar doesn't have a need to be painted, just like redwood. I recently completed a small retail store with a false front built out of 75 year old unpainted pine rough cut barn boards. My house is painted because it is made out of Hardi Boards that are specified as needing paint and will outlast me. I have a guest cottage that is stained rough cut pine for a pre-weathered look. I had the boards cut from local trees for the project.
I wear clothes for protection from the elements. Just about anything matches blue jeans and Minnetonkas.
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/22/2003 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Shell,
Sure it's hot in Texas! That's why you see so many shorts and short skirts in Iraq and other parts of the mideast. You know what the billboard says, "Fry now, pay later"!
BTW, we have real good air conditioning here in Texas and the church where the short skirts were being worn had an exceptional air conditioner like most 1st Baptist Churches do!
Edited by - Paul5388 on 04/23/2003 12:43:58 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 4/22/2003 8:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Shell,
Sure it's hot in Texas! That's why you see so many shorts and short skirts in Iraq and other parts of the mideast. You know what the billboard says, "Fry now, pay later"!
Edited by - Paul5388 on 04/23/2003 12:43:58 AM
mmm...NOW what am I going to do with that bikini I just bought?
Edited by - shell on 04/23/2003 01:04:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobbie
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 4/22/2003 8:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul, How did you become an open theist? You mentioned you were Arminian and it easily leant you towards open theism? (I think...if I am recalling correctly).
Edited by - Bobbie on 04/23/2003 01:18:46 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/23/2003 3:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You may need to brush up on the attributes of cedar and other unpainted wood. Cedar doesn't have a need to be painted, just like redwood.
Up here in Minnesota, we don't paint our cedar but we do treat it.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/23/2003 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Shell,
Sure it's hot in Texas! That's why you see so many shorts and short skirts in Iraq and other parts of the mideast. You know what the billboard says, "Fry now, pay later"!
Edited by - Paul5388 on 04/23/2003 12:43:58 AM
mmm...NOW what am I going to do with that bikini I just bought?
Convert it to a one-piece, throw away the top.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Edited by - Laika on 04/23/2003 08:33:03 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/23/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Bobbie,
I don't remember exactly what swayed me toward Open Theism and I may not actually be an Open Theist. Maybe I can accept some of the positions I am familiar with while continuing to hold some of my old positions.
When it is imperative that we ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:) the natural inclination would be to think that nothing will happen until the process is started. God has chosen to withhold a response until there is a question/prayer. Proverbs 18:13 "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." Therefore, I believe prayer changes things, because it can change God's declared intent, i.e. He is open to change due to prayers and requests from His children.
Actually, I think I said I was a 4 point Arminian Southern Baptist, which gave me a leaning toward Arminianism and Open Theism. The Particular/Calvinistic Baptists are far out numbered by the General/Arminian Baptists due to the evangelistic/missionary thrust that is a result of belief in a general call to "whosoever will". The old Northern Baptist (later called the American Baptist Convention) merged with the Northern Freewill Baptist with OSAS being the only point of difference between the two. The similarities to Arminianism for Missionary Baptists (that's SBC, ABC, ABA, BMA, BBFI and Independent Baptists) are greater than the similarities to Calvinism. So, it would have been much harder to accept Total Depravity, Unmerited Favor, Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace than it would be to accept the possibility of falling away. BTW, I am convinced there is security for the believer and like Arminius, I think falling away has been rather rare in frequency.
Shell,
"mmm...NOW what am I going to do with that bikini I just bought?" Maybe wear it at night when your husband is the only one who can see and appreciate it?
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