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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/27/2002 12:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi all-
Question about prophecy and the open view. Open theists argue by in large that a good portion of those Old Testament texts claimed by New Testament writers to have been “fulfilled” by Christ as examples of recapitulation. That is, the NT event does not fulfill the OT text in the sense that the OT passages itself prophesies what happens in the NT, but rather the NT event “fills up” by way of recapitulating the same sort of thing. I believe Sanders dwells on this a bit, especially with regard to Mathews use of the OT.
Assuming this is what Mathew has in mind, how does recapitulation “convince”? If Mathews argument is that Christ is the promised Messiah because he fulfills OT hopes/prophesies/etc., how are readers convinced if it is only the case the Jesus does something similar to those passages he is said to fulfill? One might object that history is recapitulated quite often is similar ways and by people who are of no consequence. What is there in mere recapitulating that convinces Mathews Jewish readers? However, if those OT texts claimed by openness folk are believed at least by Mathew and his audience to be prophesies in the strict sense of the word, then Jesus’ “fulfilling” them convinces.
Electra? Doc? Others?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/27/2002 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | I refuse to believe this is not an interesting topic. Responses, I say to you, "Come forth!"
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2002 2:32 AM (GMT -6) | | And again I say "Arise!"
 
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 05/28/2002 07:33:21 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/28/2002 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom,
I have a very well written article by Craig Bloomberg on this very subject (the double-fulfilment issue) called INTERPRETING OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETIC LITERATURE IN MATTHEW:
DOUBLE FULFILLMENT. I'll email it to you, if you'd like.
Coming from Bloomberg, it might not be that just OV folks hold to a fill-up concept of prophecy!
Starkman
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2002 3:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Bless you my son! Send it on.
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 05/30/2002 09:12:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2002 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Coming from Bloomberg, it might not be that just OV folks hold to a fill-up concept of prophecy!
Starkman
Right. This understanding of prophecy has been around a while. And I don't have a problem with it, except that I'm wondering how it 'convinces'. How is the fact that the same sorts of things happen to Jesus as happened to OT Israel evidence of Jesus' Messiahship? Couldn't other Jews besides Jesus claim to have spent the early years of their lives in Egypt before returning to Palestine ("Out of Egypt I have called my son")? How is Jesus's providing an "example" of this prove he's God's Messiah?
See what I'm asking?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/28/2002 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom,
You said, "Couldn't other Jews besides Jesus claim to have spent the early years of their lives in Egypt before returning to Palestine ("Out of Egypt I have called my son")? How is Jesus's providing an "example" of this prove he's God's Messiah?"
Well, sure! It'd be an every-day-event to find someone who lived in Egypt before returning to Palestine; however, anyone of them want to claim they died and rose from the dead, too? How about just doing miracles, like healing blind folks who've been blind since birth! Ah, the real tests of Messiahship, you know!
I believe it was AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and ascended that Scriptural qualifications for Messiaship were understood by Matthew (and others) as having been fulfilled in Christ--some double-fullment, some first-time fulfillment, some not a fulfillment but that "filling up" you noted.
Those poor disciples couldn't make heads or tails of Jesus before He rose from the Dead; and barely afterwards. Even then it was "Say, is it Kingdom time? Ya gonna do the thing on throne in Israel now?" (Hey, it's nowadays talk, you know!) Took the wisdom of the Spirit to make any sense out of it, it did:
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" Jn 14:26.
"Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said" Jn 2:22
"And they remembered His words" Lk 24:8
Well, there's something of my take on it.
For first time, double, and filled-up-and-full prophecy,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 05/28/2002 5:50:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/28/2002 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom. I just found this thread. Looks interesting. I’ll try to come back to it tomorrow when I’m more awake.  Electra
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2002 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Goodin Schlaufen mi hermana!
Spoken as a true linguist. 
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 05/29/2002 12:43:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/28/2002 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Goodin Schlaufen mi hermana!
Uhh…shalom? ciao? aloha? adios muchacho? Schlaufen mach schnell muchas muy oui? Like I said, Electra | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/29/2002 6:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Goodin Schlaufen mi hermana!
Uhh…shalom? ciao? aloha? adios muchacho? Schlaufen mach schnell muchas muy oui? Like I said, Electra
I’m going to add speaking in tongues to my charismatic résumé.  | | Back to Top | | |
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