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Tom
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   Posted 10/31/2002 4:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John-

Welcome to the board! Appreciated your comments, and I understand your struggle too. Just wanted to encourage you.

Take care,
Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
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geebob
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   Posted 10/31/2002 3:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cites like this and others on the internet already provide an informal fellowship of ov'ers

I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.

-Wimpy
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/3/2002 5:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PLEASE SEE THE INITIAL POST ON: "God "sees" the "partially open" world." www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1555
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sboese
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   Posted 11/4/2002 4:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Courage, there is change afoot. At least in the Assemblies. I just attended a transformation meeting that the AG is holding across the country, and one of the issues is moving towards a less denominational posture. Since we are a fellowship, a network and not a denomination, we need to move in that direction more.

I believe that the AGs transformation dialoge makes it also particularly open to theology that bolsters the basic core beliefs. And the open view certainly helps explain pentecostal soteriology and praxis.

On the note of anti-intellectualism, I believe this is dying in many pentecostal circles. Yet we are searching for a theology that affirms our experiences and views of the Spirit. Such language is in the Eastern Church. But it will be our job, along with other evangelicals to create this wholistic and Spirit-based christology to create this language in the western church. The open view, I believe is a central coherent and developing language and model that affirms the warfare/ conflict and action worldview that pentecostalism is rooted in. Releasing God's victory in the spiritual and physical realms, which are truly united in this created order.

Don't give up!

BTW the A/G is seriously considering adding (returning) a church status that is a network/ friendship affiliation in which an independent church can associate and yet remain independent. We used to have this in our history and got rid of it when we started acting more denomination-like. THis affilation, if returned could be a great place for open view churches that are charismatic.


Love to all my brothers and sisters!

Shelby Boese

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sboese
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   Posted 11/14/2002 5:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John, I believe there is someone on this board who is pretty well versed in Orthodoxy. I believe that Orthodoxy appeals to Pentecostals because of the mystical aspects--which are very similar to certain our praxis. Regarding the neo-platonism, I agree, although I do believe there are exceptions. The thing is this is where Orthodoxy is ok with the mystery and leaves it there. The open view pushes where they stop.

more later...



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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/14/2002 11:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
An interesting thing in my own spiritual journey has been that I have always tended to gravitate towards studying the patristics and the Eastern and even Oriental Orthodox writers, although it is obvious now that most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism, and while they do say many good and profitable things in their writings, in the end they seem to present little alternative to the simple foreknowledge view. (If I am wrong in this assessment, please someone let me know. I only speak from my definitely amateur historian's point of view, though I have read most of the Patristic writers that are available in English, as well as have had some close friends who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and so my information may in fact be wrong. I do for the most part find myself in large agreement with Eastern Orthodox soteriology, except for the sacramentalism. But I would absolute love to know if any Eastern Orthodox writers held to anything similar to the Open View).


Hmmm...

(later)
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/14/2002 1:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Now, as to the issue of "heavy influenced by Neo-Platonism."

quote:
John Earp: "it is obvious now that most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism"


Anyone living then, in the part of the world they did would have to deal with it. And in being faithful to the Hebrew understanding of God from scripture the Greek Fathers had work to do. But their standards were set. And the work they did do.

I've read the observation that what the Greek Fathers developed "antibodies" for, the Latin Fathers caught in slow stages, without necessarily noticing. The "Classical Theist" view might be an example.

I don't know what level of interest the two of you have. But may I just recommend two articles? Each was part of the same ensembled response to a Protestant Reformed (Reconstructionist Calvinism -- Calvin College is not Calvinist enough for them) e-magazine's accusation that Orthodoxy is Neo-Platonic. (Now way. No how.) The articles are written by converts to Orthodoxy, and address the PR's accusations well. I think you will find them interesting.

A POINT OF WARNING. PERHAPS ALL CONVERTS GET EXCESSIVE. And the 'Orthodox' these articles engaging Reformed-sparatists are on is by an Orthodox-separatist group. But it is interesting seeing the extreems engage!


One paragraph I will pull out, here, for your convenience, is this (from )

quote:
Historical Treatment?

Reading SBP, the reader hears echoes of nineteenth century liberal Protestant scholar Adolf Von Harnack’s contention that Christianity’s encounter with the surrounding Hellenic culture in its formative years compromised Christian dogma to the point of obscuring the basic truths of the Gospel (see Note-A). Harnack argued that this was especially true of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as its theology was expounded largely by theologians shaped by Hellenic modes of thought, such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. Basil the Great. The utilization of Greek philosophy to help enunciate matters of faith naturally led Harnack to reject the dogmas of the Œcumenical Synods that convened to address heterodox christology and pneumatology. Despite the surface similarities between Harnack and Jones, however, the latter does not treat theosis and the accompanying charge of hellenization in a systematic way as the former did, as neither topic is addressed within the context of the Church Fathers. But those who have argued that a hellenization of Eastern Christianity occurred have always framed their assertions within the context of the early Church, and Jones’ failure to address his claims in like manner only serves to weaken the foundation of the charges made against Orthodoxy in his paper.

from SALVATION BY CHRIST, by Carmen Fragapane
(A Response to the Protestant Reformed publication 'Credenda/Agenda'
on Orthodoxy’s Teaching of Theosis and the Doctrine of Salvation)


As I said above, the task the Fathers had -- such as those that articulated "hypostasis" -- was to "enunciate matters of faith" using the language the conceptual frame work that they had, but still remain faithful to the God of scripture and their faithlife. The Spirit worked through them. And their constructions would have been outrageous to any Neo-Platonist. It was not capitulation; it was "in your face."

Here are the two articles:

SALVATION BY CHRIST, by Carmen Fragapane
www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.htm

MILES FROM THE TRUTH: A Response to "Thema: Eastern Heterodoxy", by John Whiteford and Patrick Barnes
www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/thema_response.htm


John, you also said:

quote:
Eastern and even Oriental Orthodox writers, although it is obvious now that most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism, and while they do say many good and profitable things in their writings, in the end they seem to present little alternative to the simple foreknowledge view. (If I am wrong in this assessment, please someone let me know...)


I can say more on that. But first let me know about the above. Mostly, I'd say that the OV is an allergic reaction to the classical theist view, but does not solve all the problems it seeks to undo. And I'd say that Orthodoxy just does not have those problems. But you will want to make me back that up.

Oh, a third article is:

Is Orthodoxy Neo-Platonic?: A Response to the Credenda Agenda, by Dr. Thomas Mether
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/orth_plato.htm

That article has some interesting comments with respect to the Open View in a section towards the end. Here is some salient stuff:

quote:
With the influx of insufficiently re-constructed philosophical concepts in the west, you get the re-paganization of Christian theology in the west as instanced by debates over God’s foreknowledge of future contingents, whether it is matter or form of an ousia/substantial thing that individuates (and individuates both things and persons), and so on. The west was captured by an ousiological metaphysics. This metaphysics held western theology in captivity. It is in its nominalist form coming from William Occam that we find it still in captivity in the Calvinist’s even having the very question of whether God knows future contingents in light of predestination, and time. This was a metaphysics, St. Maximos the Confessor points out, that saw time as an enemy and thus sought that stable enduring thing through change that thereby is the most fundamental kind of being. Thus, that kind of perdurance was dubbed with the past participle he says. In essence, what is called by contemporary philosophers "the metaphysics of presence" according to Maximos is really the metaphysics of the past, as fully complete and determinate, used paradigmatically to colonize all the other temporal modes of present and future. The present is the predestined creature of the past both in Calvin and Newton.

. . . .

On the Orthodox reading, this sumbebekos is really God’s governance or the concrete realization of God’s purpose in time. To downgrade it is a spiritually sick symptom of the religiosity of sarx that finds time to be a corrosive force that bears no faith or hope. Thus, accidental being just as the unique particularity of persons and the future, is downgraded in pagan metaphysics in favor of fully determinate being-essences (the dead, fully completed and determinate and deterministic past idealized as enduring presence) or ousiological being for the paradigmatic past participle. It was not till Scotus developed his concept of haecceity and the individual’s will did you find the beginning of the overturn of a ousiological metaphysics in western Christian theology. Maximos pointed out the original meaning of sumbebekos was not negative as it as in pagan philosophical theology but was positive. It meant the adventurous and creative way things are "brought together." So, in Orthodox theology coming from Maximos, the pagan agenda to make (persons and) reality in its concreteness, in all its contingency, fortuity, distinctiveness, and unique unrepeatibility unreal in favor of impersonal, universal, and necessary is set on its head. Thus, sumbebekos, as very purposeful counterpoint in Byzantine theology, is the creative way (Logos) that God brings all things together (sumbebekos) in the existential fullness of their realization (uparktikos) of his eikonomia. This lead Maximos to revolutionize Aristotle’s categorical analysis of Being in one of its meanings. But to back up a bit. Now, the Cappadocians start to make systematic use of these terms ousia and hypostasis to build the foundations of eastern theology. But it is St. Maximos the Confessor who really completes this task and thus is called the father of Byzantine theology. This takes us back to the question of whether the meanings of Being given by Aristotle are an exhaustive list. For Maximos states:

    It is no accident, or rather, is foreordained blind inspiration that the Stagirite spoke both worse and better than he meant. For when he says that ‘indeed the inquiry or perplexity concerning what being (on) is, in early times and now and always, is just this: what is substance (ousia) (Meta Z 1.5, 1028b).’ he begs the question by his reduction of the problem of Being to that of one kind of substantial being. For the categorial determinations of the meanings of Being that have their focus or reference to a more fundamental kind of being are multiple. For as Tradition has taught us to see, there is another substantive mode of existing which is that of the personal mode of existence. The logos was in our tongue but we could not see. There are hypostases that are a personal mode of existence (tropos hyparxeos) that is the referent or fundamental kind of being that has characteristic manners or modes (tropoi) of being as modifications of the first-personal to be (eimi) that is the voluntary (thelesis) analogue to ousiological energeia and that can existentially realize (uparktikos) itself contranaturally, naturally, or supranaturally with their respective vices and virtues.




Hope that helps, and proves of interest.

Otherwise I'd recommend John Meyendorff's books:

    Christ in Eastern Christian Thought (SVP)

    and

    Byzantine Theology (Fordham Univ. Press)


- Al

Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 11/14/2002 6:30:38 PM
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rsirkel
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   Posted 11/14/2002 5:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The open view is indeed a revelation; heaven sent, bible based, congruent to man's relationship with his creator, setting the captive free, and is being manifested by the Holy Spirit. God wants us to know the future does not exist and that our prayers, obedience to His word, and spiritual warfare will help bring about the culmination of history as we know it and bring into being a history as God intended it. We cannot be negligent in proclaiming the truth and this is part of the truth. To hold back because of economic, traditional, or ecclesiastical pressures would be knowing to do right and not doing it. Whether it is a network, fellowship, or individual churches we must come out loud and clear. This is right in God's sight, helps faith, heals the understanding, and makes one a soldier for Christ. We shouldn't let Dr. Boyd and other's take all the heat of battle. I think the trumpet sound is communicating clearly and we know we should prepare for battle. The first Friends went on the offensive trusting the power of the Spirit and changed Christian history for good. Open View Fellowship of Churches and Ministries International.
Or just A Friends Revival.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Ron

Ronald A. Sirkel
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sboese
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   Posted 11/15/2002 4:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
hahahahahahaha

um just finished reading Al2s's comments and then the next person, and thought, wow, what a combination, isn't cyber space great.

Anyhow,

thanks Al2Si2H4O9 for the discussion. I would love to know what started you on your orthodox journey. I almost converted several years ago. Please write some more about the neo-platonist critique, definitely not a monolothic affirmation of that thought in the eastern Father's. I however, knew that I could not do justice to the topic--thanks for your response to the previous question.

s..

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Tom
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   Posted 11/15/2002 11:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
I would love to know what started you on your orthodox journey.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!



"No one's ever eaten a donut hole because they don't exist." Starkman
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/15/2002 11:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Please write some more about the neo-platonist critique, definitely not a monolothic affirmation of that thought in the eastern Father's. I however, knew that I could not do justice to the topic--thanks for your response to the previous question. /s..


sboese, Here's something very short. (for now)

Some of the first books I read were: my old college texts where I met Basil. I had been told --in no particular detail--by my brotherinlaw that the Western and Eastern Fathers did differ. Some reading in the tub (mostly thinking) helped be begin to grasp that. But what really struck me, and hit me mightily, was the simple idea emerging from those texts that (And I knew this from my own faithlife -- but growing up can cloud things with seeming complexities...) one could draw a kind of line from the Father who sent the Son (in the economy of salvation) to the Son who sent the Spirit (in the economy of salvation) to the Spirit who it was that was a Prime actor in changing me. In Evangelicalism, during the seventies, we admitted that the Holy Spirit was the "forgotten member of the Trinity." But HERE was the fact that it is impossible for any Person of the Trinity to be out of the loop with respect to me and my salvation -- with my life with God and spiritual health. An idea, a question was formed in my head. And I would not rest until I found out if it was true. Did God work directly in me to create this "fruit" -- The Fruit of the Spirit? At least parts of me were not entirely opposed to the idea that fruit was something that I initiated out of good habits or gratitude. (Perhaps those are not entirely inaccurate to some extend either.) I did not really think that way. That was not the concept I subscribed to. But from exposure it might have been something that I had gotten used to being around. But this idea of God's Spirit directly participating in my life, and me participating in God's participation... THAT STRUCK ME.

I read some Athanasias. I began to guess how the incarnation worked with respect to our salvation and our growing in God. I'm a slow learner; but my guesses were right. Wow.

I read a book were Evangelicals, Lutherans, Catholics and Orthodox discussed issues and commented on each other. I like seeing things at ninety-degrees, from another perspective. That helped.

I got an art book, on Byzantine art. I had some little grasp of how the worship and body-life of a church had made use of, shaped and been shaped by the space of the catacombs, house churches, and basilica forms. (taught college art history--but really a studio person) Some really good pictures helped.

I HAD visited an Orthodox Church in Ohio, twice: once for Pasca when my brotherinlaw was a deacon (formerly an Evangelical pastor), and once more for his ordination to the priesthood.

Two specifically Orthodox books, then, that I bought to start out, were:

    ohn Meyendorff's "The Orthodox Church," which is from the pen of someone who worked lots with the WCC and various dialogs with Latins. I found him to be very fair, open about his own's faults, and forthcoming in shinning light on both progress and inadvertent side-effects evident in the history of the development of doctrine across the wide geographical landscape. He won my confidence.

    Timothy (Kallistos) Ware's "The Orthodox Way." which was laid out in a way very helpful to me, by theme. And each section was divided into introductory texts, exploratory commentary, and concluding devotional material. It was not deep or complex, but it unfolded much.

    From there I read as much free material as I could get my hands on from the internet. As ever, I like to read what one group says of another, and how they dialog. It interests me that the Byzantine Revival in Orthodoxy is partially prompted by the Latin scholar's re-interest or discovery of Byzantine writers and saints. Palamas. Maximus. Basil. The Gregory's. John Paul II. wrote his Oriental Lumin.

    Eventually I had to by more books. My brotherinlaw has been able to recommend some when I've broached a topic.

    I like seeing Theology and History mixed in in discussion. I also like seeing the Lex Orandi and the Lex Credendi together!!! (Know what I mean?)

    Al
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2002 1:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sboese ?
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sboese
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   Posted 11/21/2002 11:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Thanks,
I will add thoughts when I get a chance. I've been busy doing research and writing papers...



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John Earp
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   Posted 1/4/2003 9:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Assemblies of God journal for ministers publishes article against Open Theism authored by Dr. Edgar Lee:

http://ag.org/enrichmentjournal/200204/200204_134_openness_of_god.cfm

I found this article interesting, being of an A/G background myself. I was not surprised at the author's conclusions, though I sincerely doubt that his view of this represents anything close to a majority or grassroots view.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
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Tom
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   Posted 1/5/2003 2:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John-

Lee wrote this back in the Summer. Check out the talk we had about it: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1412

Are you still A/G?

Tom


Love never ends
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/5/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sboese:

quote:
An interesting thing in my own spiritual journey has been that I have always tended to gravitate towards studying the patristics and the Eastern and even Oriental Orthodox writers, although it is obvious now that most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism, and while they do say many good and profitable things in their writings, in the end they seem to present little alternative to the simple foreknowledge view. (If I am wrong in this assessment, please someone let me know. I only speak from my definitely amateur historian's point of view, though I have read most of the Patristic writers that are available in English, as well as have had some close friends who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and so my information may in fact be wrong. I do for the most part find myself in large agreement with Eastern Orthodox soteriology, except for the sacramentalism. But I would absolute love to know if any Eastern Orthodox writers held to anything similar to the Open View).


sboese: But I would absolute love to know if any Eastern Orthodox writers held to anything similar to the Open View.

Al: You won't find it. OPen View is in reaction to something that needs fixed. And Orthodoxy never had it broken. Just a fact. And, actually, many of the broken aspects that the Open View tries to rid itself of are taken as foundations to the Open View itself. Wierd.


sboese: the patristics and the Eastern and even Oriental Orthodox writers, although it is obvious now that most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism, and while they do say many good and profitable things in their writings, in the end they seem to present little alternative to the simple foreknowledge view.

Al: First, living in a mileau with Platonic ideas and succuming to them are two different things. The Capadocians recast contemporary terms into new uses to present the Hebraic view of God in a form that was understandable and forceful to the culture the lived in. But the typical habit of Open View rhetoric pans all things of that time, making it easy for you yourself to say: most, if not all, of these writers were heavily influenced by Neo-Platonism. (Meyendorff's "The Orthodox Church" or "Christ in Eastern Christian Thought" would be good places to begin expanding that narrow, 'Harnack-ian' view. Besides, God has used outside concepts many times in the progression of revelation (For instance: Zoroastian concepts and Qumran in "lending" the concepts necessary for the Gospel of John.) Basil and company did the same.


sboese: I do for the most part find myself in large agreement with Eastern Orthodox soteriology, except for the sacramentalism.
Al: As to "realistic symbolism" or "symbolic realism" see Schmemmann's "For the Life of the World."


P.S. -- I hesistate when seeing A/G refering to mystery. "Mystery" might not be such a good word. Orthodoxy has lots of "realism." See the post below for more.

Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 01/05/2003 11:14:24 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/5/2003 6:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
thanks Al2Si2H4O9 for the discussion. I would love to know what started you on your orthodox journey. I almost converted several years ago. Please write some more about the neo-platonist critique, definitely not a monolothic affirmation of that thought in the eastern Father's. I however, knew that I could not do justice to the topic--thanks for your response to the previous question.

s..



sboese, I gave you only half a response. And I'm not even sure you are still around. But here's the other half.

This is the more important half.

What is "attractive" about Orthodoxy is worshiping the Lord! Christian "liturgy" (path towards worship--even Charismatic churches have liturgy) was born from two sources: Jewish temple cultis and Jewish Synagogue cultis. It used to be that scholars thought that the "Service of the Word" and the "Service of the Table" were not always together. So there are a lot of erroneous textbooks out there! But the wide concensus now is that the two have been together, and "grew up" together from the get-go. (see at The Original Structure of Christian Worship which is Chapter Two of "Introduction to Liturgical Theology",www.jbburnett.com/schmemann/schmemann-ordo.html) The article LINKED is very good info. I read about the same thing in a copy of one of Wolterstorff's chapters that Nick gave a friend of mine at church (in regards to a conference on liturgy and the arts). Same, same.

So, as I said, ITS THE WORSHIP!

For centuries the Church learned (and the Pslamic groupings and their traditional uses from before the Christian era were a great head start!) what worship was, and it learned how to order their approach to God, in doxology. An interesting book that you could look into is "A Commentary of the Civine Liturgy" by Nicolas Cabasillas. See chapter two, "The Liturgy of the Catacumens." The first part of the Liturgy comes from the Synagogue and its usefulness in cultivating those just beginning to grow in the faith was recognized. This part also had the Service of the Word.

If nothing else, find a copy of Alexander Schmemmann's "For the Life of the World". I think that you will really like it. And it will be really helpful.

Al
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Tom
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   Posted 1/5/2003 8:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John: Having gone through a very unwanted divorce (unwanted on my part)...

Tom: Sorry to hear you went through that. Bless you in ministry Bro.

Tom

Love never ends
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Tom
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   Posted 1/5/2003 8:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Al: ...Orthodoxy never had it broken. Just a fact.

Tom: A theology that doesn't need any fixin. Wow. Must be nice.

Tom

Love never ends
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/5/2003 12:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: A theology that doesn't need any fixin. Wow. Must be nice.

That's just to GENERAL to leave as it is. I said "never had it broken." And the "IT" was SPECIFICALLY an identification of God with divine attributes (like pagan Greeks did, and Western tradition copied -- hense the "classical theist" view) versus what the Greek Fathers did while following the Hebraic, biblical view resulting in an identification of God with the Personal aspect. (Three aspects being Person, Energies and Essence.) Orthodoxy never had that "broken" the way the "classical theists" did. So they are not in need of fix'n. (Question is, though, Tom, did OpenTheism fix all that's broke?)

........................

As to your humorous implication that the history of Orthodoxy theology is a tour of some paradise, notice this: There would not be Eccumenical Councils, and their resultant dogma and accompanying "anathemas" without there being problems. One, between Oritienal Orthodox (Copts, etc.) and Eastern Orthodox turned out to be groundless, but historically unavoidable. Hard work.

But, since "theology" in Orthodoxy is a "vision of God" and not philosophizing, I think you will find something quite different from what you and I grew up with.

Al

(Off on vacation.)
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Chucks3371
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   Posted 1/7/2003 4:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

sboese: But I would absolute love to know if any Eastern Orthodox writers held to anything similar to the Open View.



Check out Berdyaev -- he held to free will and an open future from a Russian Orthodox perspective. He had some very profound things to say about the source of freedom and creativity. A lot of his essays can be found on the Net.

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sboese
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   Posted 1/21/2003 4:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Al, Thanks for all of the sources and information. Although I am challenged by orthodoxy, the wall still remains.. :) Ultimately for me, it was the worship that alienated me. It was lacking passion and recognition of the importance of emotion in worship. It is this and the development of church traditions (from the imperializing of the faith onward) that are very difficult for me to buy into, as it were. Orthodoxy truly developed out of the early church, but the claims of continuity of faith and practice back to the early church do not seem to be accurate. And so the exclusivity is necessary to bolster other traditions, which are not traditions that would be endorsed by the overall plan of God in the cosmos. Orthodoxy has much to offer, but its pride has been it's on-going sin. And this pride has filtered from it many things God has desired to do. While God loves "old wine skins" He will work through those that are willing. The fall of Constantinople and later the 3rd Rome in Russia to me are indicators of the fruit of pride. And in the US the divisions of the "ONE CHURCH" are commentary enough.

Just some pointed thoughts--and I know there are a multitude of responses. Yet these things remain.

NOW
Concerning an open view fellowship....


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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/21/2003 6:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sboese: Ultimately for me, it was the worship that alienated me. It was lacking passion and recognition of the importance of emotion in worship. It is this and the development of church traditions (from the imperializing of the faith onward) that are very difficult for me to buy into, as it were. Orthodoxy truly developed out of the early church, but the claims of continuity of faith and practice back to the early church do not seem to be accurate.

Al: Sboese, I'd invite you to take a HARD look at the church service of the Early Church as they inherited it from the Jewish Synagog and Temple. You speak of "emotion" and I wonder what you mean. Only a certain kind of emotion? There is tons of emotion in Liturgical worship. For instance, the joy of seeing and hearing the scriptures read. I'm going to leave two LINKS here that you can take as my polite refutation of what you said, that "claims of continuity of faith and practice back to the early church do not seem to be accurate."

If you mean any laim claims that suggest that nothing on the surface changed over time and geography -- that's laughable, isn't it. No missionary church could be that way! St. Iraneaus of Leon (Western!) pointed out that the variety of expressions of the Tradition (Gospel) that existed AND YET the same message and the same worship was very significant. The same and yet with variences. Variety but yet a common core that bore its life.

Here are LINKS to articles that show more recent scholarship and point to the fact that fromthe very beginning Christians have held the worship of the Temple and Synagogue BUT FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THE CROSS AND THE RESURRECTION.

The point is that nothing of the "old" form was abandoned -- it was just transformed. The meaning was finally apparent with Christ revealed. It was what was passed on that taught Christians how to approach God in thanksgiving, docology, confession, gratitude, peace, petition, EACH OF THES IS VITALLY IMPORTANT. (Focusing merely on emotion may not be such a good idea.)

I spent my years in the Charistmatic Movement. I'd have to say that all the best of that "Charismatic" worship was what we happened to discover. But now I find that was all the time in the Orthodox Liturgy. I just wish that we hadn't had to wander around so much in the process. And I notice that what we prized so dear (and it is) is small compared to what I experience in Orthodox Liturgy.

    #1 http://www.jbburnett.com/schmemann/schmemann-ordo.html

    The Original Structure of Christian Worship
    (by Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann)

      This article discusses the relationship of Christian worship to its Jewish antecedents– and particularly, of Sunday worship to the Sabbath. The "Ordo" that he speaks of is the "Order" of Christian worship, including its internal structures and also its relation to time.


    #2 http://www.arimathea.co.uk/heavl.htm

    "The Heavenly Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Christian Tradition."
      (A paper originally delivered to a conference at Cambridge University as part of the work of an ongoing research project on the Jewish roots of Christian Liturgy, led by Margaret Barker and George Bebawi.)


    This was found on a Cambridge University (England) site: http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/CARTS/Liturgy/default.html



Its YOUR call, sboese. But as to the "imperializing of the faith" I saw lots and lots of that in the Charismatic Movement too. And it keeps on going!

But as for "the problem of wineskins"... the fact that Orthodoxy is one united form of worship with a multitude of variations is healthy. I see that played out on a weekly basis.

You mention one other thing, and it calls for a response.

quote:
The fall of Constantinople and later the 3rd Rome in Russia to me are indicators of the fruit of pride. And in the US the divisions of the "ONE CHURCH" are commentary enough.


THAT'S A "WHITE BREAD" RESPONSE. (Near racism.) My sister-in-law has this to say. Those little brown faces that came under suffering circumstances to America and took the most dangerous and thankless jobs (Like coal mining in Eastern Pennsylvania, where the dead bodies of the husbands were dropped on the kitchen floor, requiring either the boys in the family to take his place or the family to move out only days later.) and who's unacceptance by the whites meant that their own ethnic cliques were even more vital to their very survival (!) NOW get held up to the white farm-belt Protestants who have had a hundred more years to assimilate, intermarry, and homogenize.

My mom, in N.E. Minneapolis, went to SWEDISH services. Many churches of ALL ethnicities have had to struggle with the problem of somehow changing from the language "of their youth" to that of the WASPs. Many churches split. Some with the judge giving the building to the preogressives and the old Dutch humnbooks and the name "1st ___" to the conservatives.

Shame on us if you do not have sympathy. And more shame if we selfrighteously condemn.

The WORST divisions that the Orthodox have at present are what the converts from the Charismatic Movement have brought in! My Polish/Rus. sister-in-law sees it where she lives. Don't count on amalgumization being swift. Its hard. And perhaps God has good ways to use the diversity. That diversity has been the strength of the Orthodox all through history. They always took the Gospel and worship to the language and customs of those they dwelt among -- as in the Inuit in Alaska. (They did not try to teach the whole world Latin)


GO CHECK OUT THOSE LINKS. MAKE YOURSELF A COPY. AND SOMEDAY FINISH READING THEM. (THEY ARE GREAT!)
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sboese
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 55
 
   Posted 1/21/2003 9:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
hmm, a "white-bread response"--great inflamatory rhetoric! I'll bite.

The challenge of racial division in the orthodox and oriental ortodox churches is an issue that cannot be down-played by saying "they are worse over there in 'heterodox' churches."

SCOBA recognizes this as a problem, and yet churches and dioceses are being replicated. Many churches are race-based clubs, rather than bastians of orthodoxy. And yes, this is true of many 'hetro-dox' churches. But you will find that the 3rd wave (pentecostalism) of world christianity is extremely diverse--and in fact is making huge strides in historically Orthodox countries. This is a whole other reason for my so far not crossing over.

Several friends of mine have been beaten and harassed, not to mention others who I do not know. Orthodoxy talks the talk of God's love and transformative power--and yet...



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sboese
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 55
 
   Posted 1/21/2003 9:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BTW: charismatic/ evangelical converts make some of the best priests and practicing orthodox--they understand and take the time to understand the truths therein. And hopefully do not lose sight of the active presence of the SPirit in the cosmos in praxis as well as worship.

:)

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