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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Time for an Open View Fellowship of Churches | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/26/2003 10:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | sboese, I'm very pleased that you gave as well as you took, and that I receive as well as I gave.
Reminder, check out thise LINKS.
http://www.jbburnett.com/schmemann/schmemann-ordo.html and http://www.arimathea.co.uk/heavl.htm
Now, as to your post. You make interesting observations -- especially the second post.
As to the conflict mentioned in the first post -- I'd like to muse on that a bit. You write: "Several friends of mine have been beaten and harassed." I don't know your friends. I'm going to hazzard offense, though, by making some guesses. You can then think what you think wise. OK?
A Linguistics Prof. of mine from college did lots of consulting for Protestant missionary agencies. One of them was the Southern Baptist Convention. He used that organization as an example in our "Man Language and Culture" course. When the SBC went into a country they would ASK the folks there what those folks wanted. And they listened. And THAT is what they sent. To Ethiopia they sent (I remember college lectures from 1976!) an large animal vetrinarian, a horticultural specialist, a construction engineer, and a health professional. Only later did they send in anyone who would relate theology. In the mean time they were hiring the Coptic priests to do weaving work with the breeds of sheep they'd introduced to the region, to make a product suitable to its hair. They asked. They did not get "beaten and harassed." THEY were smart. I can't say whether your friends were smart or not.
It would be interesting to see where your friends were. Had that area ever been occupied by a foreign army or captive to foreign powers in the last, oh, lets say four hundred years? If your friends were in the former USSR, did they appreciate the thousands of priests, monks and nuns who over decades were put to death, or restricted from their ministry. It was the grandmothers who held the church together. Read this:
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, writing in the era of Communist persecution, speaks likewise of the role of women in his piece "The Easter Procession." Surrounded by hostile, jeering crowds, the paschal procession makes its way round the outside of the patriarchal cathedral in Moscow at Easter midnight. First come two men, clearing the way; then follows the churchwarden, carrying a lantern on a pole, "glancing from side to side with apprehension"; and after him come two other men with a banner, also "huddling together from fear." At the end of the little procession come the priests and deacons, and they too, in their fear, are "bunched together, walking out of step," hurrying by as quickly as they can. But between the banner and the clergy come the women, ten of them, walking in pairs, holding thick, lighted candles. They have a tranquillity that the men lack: "...elderly women with faces set in an unworldly gaze, prepared for death if they are attacked. Two out of the ten are young girls, with pure bright faces...The ten women, walking in close formation, are singing and looking as solemn as though the people round them were crossing themselves, praying and falling on their knees in repentance. They do not breathe the cigarette smoke; their ears are deaf to the vile language; the soles of their feet do not feel how the churchyard has been turned into a dance floor."31 These ten, walking in the Easter procession, exemplify the women of Russia who, far more than die men, kept alive the faith through their courage during seventy years of persecution. They prove to us that in God's Church woman is called to be not passive, not subordinate, but resolute and creative, as the Virgin Mary was at the Annunciation. (Kallistos Ware)
Not an easy life, and a tough witness.
Did your friends ASK? We in the west (I'm in Republican suburban Chicago, and my congressman is the Speaker of the House.) went into the Soviet block with our money and our organizational structure and funding and tried to buy converts. We tried to buy them from churches that were in tatters. Had WE prayed for sixty years on our knees with out windows shuttered? Were WE going to stay around if things got bad again?
We are foreigners. We do not eat the same food, or speak the same tongue. Yet we go in all the while disregarding those who are already there as if they don't matter, and implying that they don't or are wrong. WE DON'T ASK. And we do not cooperate.
If we had asked, no doubt they could tell us what they really needed -- like the Ethiopians told the SBC (whom they welcomed).
One of the worst sins is "schism." The breaking of the one Body of Christ into many parts. We Protestants are great at it. My friend from Calvin Seminary went to a CRC church that spawned the Protestant Reformed denomination. ("Put one Dutchman on an island and you have a mission post; two and you have a church; three and you have a schism."  ) We are great at it.
Do we ask. Do we listen. Do we cooperate, and join in the unity of the Body?
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Speaking of............ is the call for a conference of "Open" people a toe-hold towards our own North American Schism? | | Back to Top | | |
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sboese
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 55
| Posted 1/28/2003 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Pentecostal Union churches and leaders. These existed pre-communist revolution in Ukraine and Russian. Friends involved in a re-opening of a pentecostal college.
Pentecostals were harassed by orthodox pre-communism, then by communism (ditto on the alexanders story for them) and post- communism by the Orthodox. Of all are humans and yada yada.. but this makes quite a mark on me personally that those who claim to be great victims of the ages--are also the great victimizers.
Forget not that even within orthodox charismatics generally are still harassed (although hopefully not physically) in the US church. But they are a growing force. It seems the Holy Spirit even desires for the Orthodox to venture into neglected aspects of Christian history! (How's that for non-race-baiting inflamatory rhetoric :) )
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Back to the concern of my original post- the idea is not to create something out of a desire to divide, but rather fellowship and encouragement. I am in the Assemblies of God, we have not come out against the open view. However, I believe it is a very accurate model of God (in the works). I do believe that most of issues are complete misuderstandings in the AG from those who are aware of it. E.g. "It means God doesnt know the future" and so forth.
I simply am pondering if all fellowships come out against it, will there be "refuge" for this model that accounts for the call of the Love of God and truly dynamic relationalism?
THat's all-- um and maybe I am too influenced by postmodern paradigms, but whats wrong with diversity and multiplicity? (Remember thats the irony in Orthodoxy in america--they claim unity of fellowship as the core value and point of conversion and contention- and yet they are not in unity at all here. SCOBA aside.)
But what do I know... I am sure thats where you'll start- so I'll save you time.. :D
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/28/2003 7:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the posts, sboese.
I'll let you have the last word. But I get to choose it!
sboese: "...not lose sight of the active presence of the SPirit in the cosmos in praxis as well as worship." | | Back to Top | | |
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sboese
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 55
| Posted 2/4/2003 4:46 AM (GMT -6) | | BUT I DONT WANT the 'last word'--the words should never end.
Anyhow, I really do appreciate your perspective. I am slowly going through the links. I only react in the way I do BECAUSE I am challenged by the claims of Orthodoxy. Please understand that (as in everything) there are emotional layers of context as well as theological and traditional.
I wonder what you think of the "new" COC Charismatic Orthodox Church--of course there are issues of succession and claims of historic "orthodoxy."
although the beginning of this thread was the existence of some sort of network for open viewers--the orthodox discussion is of great value. I would like to hear from people on both issues. Maybe another thread? Or not...
Oh Blessed and Holy Trinity guide our national leaders..
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit; Both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen
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